UPN Statement

[kerschbs]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317330038' post='2812104']
Although some alliances, such MK in the no-CB War gave it their all and brought allies willing to do the same when attacked, that earned them respect over alliances like GATO, GPA, etc who tried surrendering without fighting back. It was the popularity MK and CnG gained fighting back with a full nuclear war and not dodging their treaties even in a losing war that allowed them such an influential position once NPO's hegemony ended. MK lost that war and had to pay reps, but overall they won a lot more than they lost by showing they had the balls to fight.
[/quote]

To be fair, GATO did fight the entirety of that war. Considering there was the peace mode=perma zi declaration, we didn't really want to see what would happen if we used nuclear weapons. We weren't prepared enough at the time to pull a FAN and literally be at war for years.

In retrospect it was a terrible decision, however to say the didn't fight at all is a little misleading.

And I agree with you here. If UPN won't activate treaties that's fine, but they need to be fighting with everything they have until negotiations are up.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317330743' post='2812113']
Fear of getting rolled stops to many wars from getting big and alliances allowing an ally to get rolled on their own. If NpO allows fear of TOP keep them from helping their treaty partners, that will just mean eventually TOP can declare directly on NpO without worrying about any of NpO's allies doing anything, once their allies have taken similar beat downs without calling on help to try benefiting their allies previously. [/quote]

Presumably Polaris expects the rest of their allies to be competent enough to avoid a beat-down under these circumstances. Don't forget this started with UPN attacking NG's protectorate, which I think really obviates most of your analysis here. I would mostly tend to agree with you, were it not that way, but it is what it is.

[quote]Also if TOP really is waiting to hit NpO, better to get the war out of the way than live in fear over it for an extended period of time. [/quote]

False dichotomy.

[Brehon]

Good on you UPN, this is a solid response of accountability for your actions I did not not expect. Listen I haven't liked Polar's stance in this, but if this is what UPN wants, then this is what they should get.

To now give Polar crap for honoring their ally is the rest of us sitting on hypocrisy and that has to stop.

[MCRABT]

I am afraid you are not fooling anyone here UPN, this is just a smokescreen to catch us off guard. We shall prepare the pre-emptive defence of our allies for update.

[Jesper]

And I just popped a fresh batch, not even worth eating now.

Good luck UPN, may your tomb stomp be fancy and on a decent plot at the graveyard.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1317331488' post='2812119']
Presumably Polaris expects the rest of their allies to be competent enough to avoid a beat-down under these circumstances. Don't forget this started with UPN attacking NG's protectorate, which I think really obviates most of your analysis here. I would mostly tend to agree with you, were it not that way, but it is what it is.
[/quote]
Consider what NpO got declared on for in the last war they were in and what NPO got declared on, then it becomes more apparent that NpO really won't have to do anything bad to get declared on if they skip out on wars like this which should pull them in with a treaty. So while NpO can ignore their treaty based on UPN hitting this protectorate, I really doubt NpO can avoid war by not backing an ally in situations like this. Although NpO doesn't need to jump in right away and can let a round of war finish before jumping in, then keeping the NG nations who have taken a lot of damage in war mode and aiding any UPN nations who need some aid after fighting round 1. NpO doesn't need to blitz in first update here, they can see how things go before committing to doing anything this war while they see if NG decides to bring in any more allies before that.

[Mompson]

Good luck to UPN, and as many other have said, we'll assist you if you feel it necessary.

Also...
[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317330743' post='2812113']
Fear of getting rolled stops to many wars from getting big and alliances allowing an ally to get rolled on their own. If NpO allows fear of TOP keep them from helping their treaty partners, that will just mean eventually TOP can declare directly on NpO without worrying about any of NpO's allies doing anything, once their allies have taken similar beat downs without calling on help to try benefiting their allies previously.
[/quote]
Where in the heck do you get that:

1. NpO is afraid of TOP
2. NpO is willing to abandon their allies because of the above

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='mompson' timestamp='1317332411' post='2812134']
Good luck to UPN, and as many other have said, we'll assist you if you feel it necessary.

Also...

Where in the heck do you get that:

1. NpO is afraid of TOP
2. NpO is willing to abandon their allies because of the above
[/quote]
I was responding to a post saying that, so while I doubt that to be the case, those are my thoughts on it if they do let fear get to them. Although in the past NpO has seemed more than willing to charge in for an ally, so I really doubt anything to do with TOP will prevent them from helping UPN if UPN decides this is a fight worth fighting.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Methrage

[Robster83]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317331976' post='2812129']
Consider what NpO got declared on for in the last war they were in and what NPO got declared on, then it becomes more apparent that NpO really won't have to do anything bad to get declared on if they skip out on wars like this which should pull them in with a treaty. So while NpO can ignore their treaty based on UPN hitting this protectorate, I really doubt NpO can avoid war by not backing an ally in situations like this. Although NpO doesn't need to jump in right away and can let a round of war finish before jumping in, then keeping the NG nations who have taken a lot of damage in war mode and aiding any UPN nations who need some aid after fighting round 1. NpO doesn't need to blitz in first update here, they can see how things go before committing to doing anything this war while they see if NG decides to bring in any more allies before that.
[/quote]

Polaris, as well as several other of our allies, offered us unconditional support and were willing to act in whatever way WE felt was necessary. WE requested our allies to stay out of this, because we feel it would be unfair to call upon them, given the circumstances. UPN appreciates the support, however as we said repeatedly... it is our own mess, caused by our own mistakes... and we will deal with it ourselves.

[DemonSpawn]

Im surprised this thread wasn't made even earlier today. It was totally expected.

[Farrin Xies]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1317328944' post='2812085']
Our favorite one!!!!!!!
[/quote]

Ours too!

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317329174' post='2812090']
NPO would obviously only get invovled if TIO or another of their allies were fighting, then got declared on by someone. I don't think NPO will get involved unless they have a treaty to bring them in, also unless NPO's allies who get involved only get countered by DH alliances, I don't think the ODP/NAP would really come into play as NPO would have stronger treaties to defend other allies. It takes someone willing to fight and try to win for a side to form around them, if they just pass up on any help and decide to be a punching bag until they get terms, they'll never know how big of a coalition they could of formed by fighting and giving it their all.
[/quote]

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yniWyJOpfxw/S-V4GiQHQdI/AAAAAAAAAZY/hmDdL-Ai9b4/s1600/cheez_doing_it_wrong.jpg[/img]

[BastardofGod]

I suppose good work not leading the lambs to a slaughter. Not sure why everyone would get blue balls over what would be a one sided conflict. Would be interesting to see Pandora actually pick on the great powers that be instead of scraps.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317331976' post='2812129']
Consider what NpO got declared on for in the last war they were in and what NPO got declared on, then it becomes more apparent that NpO really won't have to do anything bad to get declared on if they skip out on wars like this which should pull them in with a treaty. [/quote]

However I dont think we should expect a repeat of what happened to Pacifica, they were a special case, and they still got a lot of sympathy (and their attackers a lot of bad PR) out of it. I cant say it wont happen again, but I wouldnt just assume it will either. Also characterising this war as one 'which should pull them in with a treaty' appears factually incorrect to me, on a number of grounds. .

UPN did launch the first attacks, so it would be the optional aggression clause, not the defense clause, that needs to be activated. Obviously Polar or anyone else would be justified in declining to take that option, particularly considering they dont appear to have been consulted at all before the initial attacks were launched, even were it requested, which does not appear to be the case.

Also, even if we call this a defensive war for UPN for the sake of argument, both the defensive and offensive clauses in this particular treaty explicitly require a *request* to activate. Some treaties purport to activate automagically without such a request, but this is not one of them. So as long as UPN refrains from explicitly requesting Polaris enters (something they seem determined not to do) the treaty doesnt activate, no matter how you parse the situation.

[quote]So while NpO can ignore their treaty based on UPN hitting this protectorate, [/quote]

As I explained above, they dont need to ignore their treaty, their treaty has specific triggers for activation, and this situation does not trigger it, no matter how it is parsed.

[quote]I really doubt NpO can avoid war by not backing an ally in situations like this. [/quote]

I would bet Polaris will be at war again soon enough. I cant blame them for wanting to have a rhetorical leg to stand on when they do fight, however, and this occasion does not offer them that opportunity.

Edit to avoid double-post:

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1317332908' post='2812139']
Polaris, as well as several other of our allies, offered us unconditional support and were willing to act in whatever way WE felt was necessary. WE requested our allies to stay out of this, because we feel it would be unfair to call upon them, given the circumstances. UPN appreciates the support, however as we said repeatedly... it is our own mess, caused by our own mistakes... and we will deal with it ourselves.
[/quote]

This gives me hope for the future of UPN. Good luck to you all.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Thrash]

Good luck, UPN. And Methrage, you're out of your mind with that war strategy.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1317332908' post='2812139']
Polaris, as well as several other of our allies, offered us unconditional support and were willing to act in whatever way WE felt was necessary. WE requested our allies to stay out of this, because we feel it would be unfair to call upon them, given the circumstances. UPN appreciates the support, however as we said repeatedly... it is our own mess, caused by our own mistakes... and we will deal with it ourselves.
[/quote]

You make it sound like they guilted you into it. "Well, we'll help you if you want us to but we'd be getting beat up for your mess so you know whatever.."

I can see that being the line.

[FeaR_LeSs]

[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1317331842' post='2812126']
I am afraid you are not fooling anyone here UPN, this is just a smokescreen to catch us off guard. We shall prepare the pre-emptive defence of our allies for update.
[/quote]

I agree

Edited September 29, 2011 by FeaR_LeSs

[HalfEmpty]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317330038' post='2812104']
Although some alliances, such MK in the no-CB War gave it their all and brought allies willing to do the same when attacked, that earned them respect over alliances like GATO, GPA, etc who tried surrendering without fighting back. It was the popularity MK and CnG gained fighting back with a full nuclear war and not dodging their treaties even in a losing war that allowed them such an influential position once NPO's hegemony ended. MK lost that war and had to pay reps, but overall they won a lot more than they lost by showing they had the balls to fight.
[/quote]


Well remembered, and well said.

[iamthey]

Hrmm, I'd say that makes you a pretty good ally UPN- you are willing to abort the war in the face of overwhelming odds. Now polar and your other allies get to safely watch from afar. Though I suppose the most pertinent question would be, what would they do in your position?

Polar had a pretty good opportunity last war to take one for the team, they could have saved their allies and prevented the DH-NPO war. But hey I guess that isn't fair- they are more important after all.

Edited September 29, 2011 by iamthey

[Stefano Palmieri]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1317329574' post='2812094']
So, uh, Polar. What a pretty peace mode count you have for someone not coming to war
[/quote]
Probably thought that they would be preempted, because this thing was just an attempt to drag NpO into war and had nothing to do with UPN @#$%ing up at all.

[Feanor Noldorin]

What happened to the scars and committment?

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1317335603' post='2812176']
What happened to the scars and committment?
[/quote]

Commitment just isn't what it used to be.

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1317334544' post='2812162']
Hrmm, I'd say that makes you a pretty good ally UPN- you are willing to abort the war in the face of overwhelming odds. Now polar and your other allies get to safely watch from afar. Though I suppose the most pertinent question would be, what would they do in your position?

Polar had a pretty good opportunity last war to take one for the team, they could have saved their allies and prevented the DH-NPO war. But hey I guess that isn't fair- they are more important after all.
[/quote]

I was thinking this exact thing. Though the situation is a bit different, as this time, UPN is the aggressor. Either way, it is an interesting parallel to draw, and tells more about these two individual alliances then first meets the eye.

To be honest, I'm quite impressed with UPN, in biting the bullet. It's a dumb move, imo, due to the political climate, and what everyone knows is destined to happen in the near future. But it takes balls.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1317336410' post='2812182']
I was thinking this exact thing. Though the situation is a bit different, as this time, UPN is the aggressor. Either way, it is an interesting parallel to draw, and tells more about these two individual alliances then first meets the eye.

To be honest, I'm quite impressed with UPN, in biting the bullet. It's a dumb move, imo, due to the political climate, and what everyone knows is destined to happen in the near future. But it takes balls.
[/quote]

The war ending tonight or tomorrow through surrender will do less damage than this whole thing escalating.

[King Wally]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1317334544' post='2812162']
Polar had a pretty good opportunity last war to take one for the team, they could have saved their allies and prevented the DH-NPO war. But hey I guess that isn't fair- they are more important after all.
[/quote]

To be fair to polar that last war had a more reasonable chance of victory early on and was probably worth taking the punt. Had a few things activated differently Polar's side could have very well won that war. In the end I would still say their coalition put up a bloody decent fight and from memory rallied more alliances then the PB/DH coalition. UPN this time around just has no chance with their FA set at present... it was not going to get close to half what Polar rallied last war and for their own sake biting the bullet was the smart thing to do even if its not so "entertaining" for the rest of us nuclear blue balled spectators.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

I blame Xiphosis for controlling the outcome of this matter through this list of alliances found below.

GOD > SF > RnR > XX > Fark > Polar > Sentinal > UPN.