nutkase Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 I can see both sides of the fence here, while it does not look good getting involved in a alliances internal structure I can see why they did it anyway. Though term 5 has got me scratching my head in a confusing manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochers Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1307507320' post='2726659'] Yes, it is. [/quote] So then, assuming that all of the NPO's actions for which they were attacked in the Karma War were actually born out of good intentions, then the actions of the Karma Coalition were actually opposed to the goodness of the NPO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1307506831' post='2726652'] Maybe I just believe more in survival of the fittest. RnR Gov have stated that the rest of the gov was sick of being stonewalled in thier attempts to do anything. Stonewalled by a dictator that they could not overcome. Yet, this dictator they could not overcome, a) did not sign these terms and b) was "temporarily deposed" in a prior UINE announcement to deal with this war. You know what that means? It means that they could have, in that exact same way, overcome those same stonewalls, by the same means they used in the resolution of this war. You know what else? They simply did not care enough to. If you blindly follow a fail leader, and try nothing to change it, then rest on the fact that you "cant change it." Then you follow it up by proving that you CAN overcome it.. Then they deserved every bit of the beatdown they just got. Further, they would deserve every bit of every future beatdown Keve caused them. You know what though... they had a right to choose for themselves. To take the ability for them to choose their own fate away from them, is not doing them any favors, it is making them sheep to the more powerful. [/quote] They also had the choice to join another alliance if they didn't like the way UINE was operated. Edited June 8, 2011 by Azaghul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auctor Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Kochers' timestamp='1307507918' post='2726667'] So then, assuming that all of the NPO's actions for which they were attacked in the Karma War were actually born out of good intentions, then the actions of the Karma Coalition were actually opposed to the goodness of the NPO? [/quote] We've reached the part of the thread where people that didn't fight Karma tell us what Karma meant for them. Kinda goofed up to mandate charter changes as part of terms, but I can't really be bothered to disapprove that much unless UINE gets redeclared on for breaking it. That would be pretty bad form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kochers' timestamp='1307507918' post='2726667'] So then, assuming that all of the NPO's actions for which they were attacked in the Karma War were actually born out of good intentions, then the actions of the Karma Coalition were actually opposed to the goodness of the NPO? [/quote] Yes. On the same token, if your aunt had balls she would be your uncle. I think you're misunderstanding the term sovereignty though, since the above has nothing to do with it. (I really wish we could just ban that word along with like 10 others that get abused around here) Edited June 8, 2011 by Il Impero Romano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Kochers' timestamp='1307507918' post='2726667'] So then, assuming that all of the NPO's actions for which they were attacked in the Karma War were actually born out of good intentions, then the actions of the Karma Coalition were actually opposed to the goodness of the NPO? [/quote] You might as well argue from the assumption that nukes are filled with candy and GRL represents the Global Rainbow Level. Sure, you could draw all kinds of conclusions from that, but I'm not entirely sure how useful they would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Palmieri Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Congrats on the peace. Although Heft was right, you may as well have just installed a viceroy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyTheHobo Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Heft' timestamp='1307504339' post='2726588'] Why didn't you just install a viceroy? [/quote] I'll give this a 6/10. I understand that you want to be one of the first posts, but you really should be more concerned about quality. Now, since I've had a few Bonus Resources that require water and wheat I am simply pulled in by a fishing method that involved pulling hooks along the ocean floor. [img]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3293/thumbpy.jpg[/img] SRSLY? A peace term that mandates what I'm sure UINE might have done already, which is installing democracy, is akin to installing a dictator? Again, coming from an alliance affiliation that is quite skilled at manning small vessels that often are used to intercept radio transmissions I would expect better. You're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurunin Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) [quote]1. The immediate expulsion of keve69 from government, a declaration on the OWF with the new government and a statement he is no longer in charge of UINE. Keve may return to government after the remaining terms are completed, Keve69 (or his altenative name should he ever decide to reroll) is no longer allowed to be the sole leader of UINE. 2. 21M in reps for AiD to be paid by anyone who wants to, within 2 days of delivery of the target list. 3. A ban on techraiding of any nation part of an AA with more then 1 nation (with the exception of "None"). 4. UINE will revise their charter in which the absolute power of the emperor (or any other form of leader(s)) will permanently be kept in Check by direct GA involvement (for example term-based elected emperors). 5. From the date of this agreement forward, UINE will not be allowed to interfere with or attack the R&R alliance or any alliance that R&R is treatied with, unless it is in self-defense from an act of aggression launched against UINE by R&R or her allies. Any form of aggression from UINE towards R&R or her allies may be considered an act of war. [/quote] i'm actually sad to see this guys...i can definitely understand terms 1/2, but 3/4 are pushing it, imo those raiding restrictions are WAY too tight one a raiding alliance (maybe bring it up to 5members or dissolve this term over time?) and 4, while it's definitely a smart as hell thing for the to do...dictating it on the other hand isnt right imo (btw #5 seems like a no brainer for any alliance alrdy let alone making it a peace term lol) edit: put down wrong numbers >.> Edited June 8, 2011 by Lurunin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) I'm not one to be nice, but are you out of your !@#$@#$ mind? Those terms are completely ridiculous and for $18 million? Where was Polaris while UINE was letting R&R screw them over? I know UINE is a terrible alliance but seriously they don't deserve this over chump change. Edited June 8, 2011 by Mathias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Well, these terms could have been worse. I didn't think they were *terrible*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Frontier Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Are people seriously complaining that RnR is forbidding Keve from government? That's like punishing someone by forbidding them to eat !@#$ or molest goats. UINE should be thanking them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochers Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Auctor' timestamp='1307508271' post='2726671'] We've reached the part of the thread where people that didn't fight Karma tell us what Karma meant for them. [/quote] Yeah...that really has nothing to do with what I said at all. Unless your disputing the fact that part of Karma's goal was to take down the NPO and the practices associated with its "reign of terror." [quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1307508335' post='2726672'] I think your misunderstanding the term sovereignty though, since the above has nothing to do with it. [/quote] Enlighten me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) Wow, one can only imagine what the terms would have been had they actually done something to you beyond having an incompetent leader. Although... I do feel a little bit better knowing that I was completely right about R&R having no good will towards UINE whatsoever. Edited June 8, 2011 by Hereno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT Jag Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Would legitimately prefer a viceroy (in the limited capacity viceroys are allowed to be in now) over a forced permanent internal upheaval like this, but you handle your own business, R&R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankees Empire Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 To be honest, I'm not a fan of these terms. I'm not a fan of meddling in any alliance's internal affairs. If UINE wants keve69 as an awful dictator, that's their right. If they want him out, it's their job to coup him, not R&R's. Also, term 5? Really? "If UINE declares war on R&R or one of R&R's allies, that will be considered an act of war against R&R, and we will declare war on them." O rly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brokenhead Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Yankees Empire' timestamp='1307509423' post='2726698'] To be honest, I'm not a fan of these terms. I'm not a fan of meddling in any alliance's internal affairs. If UINE wants keve69 as an awful dictator, that's their right. If they want him out, it's their job to coup him, not R&R's. Also, term 5? Really? "If UINE declares war on R&R or one of R&R's allies, that will be considered an act of war against R&R, and we will declare war on them." O rly? [/quote] This gentleman sums up my thoughts exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kochers' timestamp='1307508739' post='2726689'] Enlighten me. [/quote] Sure. Alright, so here is our original exchange: [quote name='Kochers' timestamp='1307506934' post='2726653'] So sovereignty is relative to someone else's intentions? [/quote] My answer was yes, it is (speaking to intent in its form as a word to express an action which brings about a desired result, as opposed to something like "good/bad intentions"). Then, you replied with the following: [quote name='Kochers' timestamp='1307507918' post='2726667'] So then, assuming that all of the NPO's actions for which they were attacked in the Karma War were actually born out of good intentions, then the actions of the Karma Coalition were actually opposed to the goodness of the NPO? [/quote] What your speaking to in the above is the ethics behind an action and its inherent moral status (I guess), which is a little bit from left field to be honest. Sovereignty though, in a nutshell for this context at least, is freedom from external control. Zero considerations of good, bad, ugly, happy, sad, nice, mean, etc are relevant when speaking to an alliance's sovereignty. Though like I said, it really should just become a dirty word around here because apparently people just like to say it randomly, so I don't blame you for being confused. Edited June 8, 2011 by Il Impero Romano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokula Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Congrats UINE And Good sportsmanship R&R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Velox Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 No point of having an Alliance with other Alliances calling the shots. Just do yourself a favor and disband. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Happy The Hobo' timestamp='1307508446' post='2726676'] I'll give this a 6/10. I understand that you want to be one of the first posts, but you really should be more concerned about quality. Now, since I've had a few Bonus Resources that require water and wheat I am simply pulled in by a fishing method that involved pulling hooks along the ocean floor. A peace term that mandates what I'm sure UINE might have done already, which is installing democracy, is akin to installing a dictator? Again, coming from an alliance affiliation that is quite skilled at manning small vessels that often are used to intercept radio transmissions I would expect better. You're welcome. [/quote] If there is one thing I care about, it's being on the first page of a thread. You got me, guy. It doesn't really matter what UINE may or may not have done or should have done on their own, nor does what it matter whether or not R&R is doing this magnanimously or malevolently. UINE [i]should[/i] remove keve from power (as they did at the start of the war), and I am sure that this was done with genuinely good intentions on R&R's part. It's still a bad idea and a bad precedent and shouldn't have happened and no one should come away from this with the belief that doing things like this is a good thing. You can get away with it if you're doing it to a small alliance that most people are strongly apathetic towards, and some openly revile, and very few have any fondness for, and which has absolutely no power to speak of. I can't be too upset about what happens to an alliance which I regularly forget still exists. Let's just not let it become a habit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Nothing like a good ole' victory to cap off a wonderful day. Congrats boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellBade Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307504147' post='2726582'] Any form of aggression from UINE towards R&R or her allies may be considered an act of war. [/quote] Woah look at the brains on R&R. Musta taken you guys a whole week to come up with that logic. But yeah, disbandment would've been more honorable imo rather than making UINE a puppet, but thats just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Black Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 I suppose on content I should be against this as I fancy myself a moralist, however I suppose the intent of this wasn't as malicious as its being drawn out to be. Its interesting that of those complaining UINE isn't one of them, however I suppose that would just make things worse for them down the road. I wish all parties involved the very best in their future ventures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307508609' post='2726684'] I'm not one to be nice, but are you out of your !@#$@#$ mind? Those terms are completely ridiculous and for $18 million? Where was Polaris while UINE was letting R&R screw them over? I know UINE is a terrible alliance but seriously they don't deserve this over chump change. [/quote] At least they didn't keep them at war for a couple months just to destroy their one upper tier nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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