R&R-UINE Announcement

[2burnt2eat]

Hahaha, dictated Charter and leadership

[NoFish]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307529219' post='2726861']
You are correct sir, noone said "blame keve", just "Keve was at fault and we all had no idea and can't be blamed".

This was NOT about 18M anymore for a long time, i think we have made that clear in our DoW AND during negotiations.

Which alliance you learn from is not my concern, we don't want an R&R 2.0 out there, just as long as you're smart enough to learn.



Actually, we never wanted him out of the alliance, we in admins name would we want to give another alliance the headache, the original term was "permanent expulsion from govt" you requested he would be allowed back into gov because he could still contribute, you sir did not defend him to the hilt, we gave in to that request without a fight.

We also gave in without a fight on the original techdealing term, you requested limited techraiding would be allowed i changed the term within 1 minute.

You also didn't like the polar treaty cancellation for the duration of terms, as you can see it's no longer in there.

Now you raised 3 points during negotiations and all you won without much of a fight. Why during all this not one UINE gov member including you commented on the charter change term? It was taken without a single word of discussion. Hell IIRC I was the one changing the term to give UINE more room to make this change in a way of your own choosing, just like I was the one who suggested the charter change period should be at lest 2 months instead of 1 day that UINE suggested because a charter is not something you can rush.

Welcome to the bandwagon, but next time you don't want a term, the least you can do is ask for its removal. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.




Again, we succeded on every point you raised and even threw you a (little) bone here and there why not try to shoot for more? Don't blame me for your failings in negotiations.
[/quote]
You know, I'm just going to leave this here as it pretty much sums up every point I'd like to make, and no one seems to want to respond to it.

[Alex987]

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307561656' post='2727185']
It's not your place to make sure UINE stays out of situations like this. If they want to see reforms, they can do that on their on terms without having them shoved down their throat during a war. [b]UINE didn't pay so you punished them, take your reps[/b] and leave you have no right to dictate their inner workings indefinitely or even at all.

The fact that you think this is acceptable is astounding and speaks volumes.
[/quote]

These are not our reps, they are AiD's for the techraiding of 5 of their members.

@ Dochartaigh:

Lol, I love this switching of opinions. When R&R declared war everybody was like "Hmm, yeah keve is getting what he deserves, nobody likes keve". Now that the war is over and something's being done, we're the only ones that want keve out? No, like was said again and again, all of these promised reforms were what allured us to peace, we want to avoid future conflicts with UINE. Their history has shown that reforms need to be ensured, not just promised, and that they have had problems with many alliances repeatedly. We are ensuring that we do not need to fight any more costly wars for allies again (keep in mind this was for allies since R&R received 0 reps)

Edit: And also what NoFish quoted above...

Edited June 8, 2011 by Alex987

[Varianz]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307562418' post='2727199']
Lol, I love this switching of opinions. When R&R declared war everybody was like "Hmm, yeah keve is getting what he deserves, nobody likes keve". Now that the war is over and something's being done, we're the only ones that want keve out? No, like was said again and again, all of these promised reforms were what allured us to peace, we want to avoid future conflicts with UINE. Their history has shown that reforms need to be ensured, not just promised, and that they have had problems with many alliances repeatedly. We are ensuring that we do not need to fight any more costly wars for allies again (keep in mind this was for allies since R&R received 0 reps)
[/quote]
We all think Keve was an idiot, and we all think your war was totally justified. What we think is ridiculous is R&R imposing charter changes, raid rules, limits on gov, etc. The distinction between the two is simple enough to understand.

[Alex987]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1307562608' post='2727202']
We all think Keve was an idiot, and we all think your war was totally justified. What we think is ridiculous is R&R imposing charter changes, raid rules, limits on gov, etc. The distinction between the two is simple enough to understand.
[/quote]

I did not hear the discussion of the terms so I didn't know this even until NoFish posted the quote but those terms are all what UINE wanted. They were given what they asked, and all of the terms were still ensuring they do what they promised. They promised to keep keve out temporarily, pay the reps, and not start any more conflicts. That's ALL the agreement does. The only way R&R benefits from that treaty is ensuring peace so we do not need to spend money for no reps anymore.

Edit: Keep in mind that the raiding of an AA is what put them at odds with AiD in the first place, which started the whole $36 mil reps situation.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Alex987

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1307547095' post='2726992']
Congratulations, you have now discovered that sometimes people change their minds. Think you might get a Nobel for it?

[/quote]

Now, I know this may be groundbreaking and may very well win me a Nobel, but is it hard to conceive that it was presented to rebuke the statement that Keve was never thrown under the bus?

I'm awaiting my millions.

[Bob]

I don't agree with forcing policy changes on an alliance regardless of the situation. That being said, I can understand R&R's reasoning for doing so in this situation, but I hope the comments against forcing policy onto other alliances will keep them from doing so in the future. Slippery slope etc

[Varianz]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307562876' post='2727206']
I did not hear the discussion of the terms so I didn't know this even until NoFish posted the quote but those terms are all what UINE wanted. They were given what they asked, and all of the terms were still ensuring they do what they promised. They promised to keep keve out temporarily, pay the reps, and not start any more conflicts. That's ALL the agreement does. The only way R&R benefits from that treaty is ensuring peace so we do not need to spend money for no reps anymore.

Edit: Keep in mind that the raiding of an AA is what put them at odds with AiD in the first place, which started the whole $36 mil reps situation.
[/quote]
Oh ok. As long as they promised that's fine. Just totally ignore the giant shotgun being held to their heads while they made those promises- that's no big deal. As for raids, raids cause problems in every single alliance on Bob. Are you guys never going to raid again? Are you going to ask your allies to stop raiding so that you can't be drawn into problems because they had bad raids? It happens with everyone.

[Gibsonator21]

R&R is evil, SF is terrible, etc.

[Bob Janova]

I don't like these terms. But considering that UINE was redeclared on for not fulfilling peace terms, they're lucky to get any peace so soon. Would no peace terms be better? I think that, actually, yes. We've had some ridiculously long wars in the last few years but after three days, you shouldn't offer anything if what you're going to offer is like this.

I can't agree with peace terms that affect alliances' internal affairs, even if it's a terrible alliance like UINE. And particularly if they are permanent.

Edit: The anti-raiding one is particularly bad considering SF's own attitude to raiding.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Bob Janova

[Mogar]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1307528579' post='2726857']
Hmm, well perhaps an addition of clause 6 demanding GGA disband is in order seeing as we are making demands for things that already happened in peace terms these days.
[/quote]
next random peace agreements I do are having this^.

[HalfEmpty]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1307565191' post='2727238']
I don't like these terms. But considering that UINE was redeclared on for not fulfilling peace terms, they're lucky to get any peace so soon. Would no peace terms be better? I think that, actually, yes. We've had some ridiculously long wars in the last few years but after three days, you shouldn't offer anything if what you're going to offer is like this.I can't agree with peace terms that affect alliances' internal affairs, even if it's a terrible alliance like UINE. And particularly if they are permanent.Edit: The anti-raiding one is particularly bad considering SF's own attitude to raiding.
[/quote]

Thanks Max.
We are seeing the new delightfullness. Seriously can anyone argue that UINE could not have used a fine upstanding VR? MOG has much experience in these matters and a opportunity was lost.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1307560579' post='2727162']
The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing the same way and expecting different results. More than an exclusion from government, removing Keve from office is a step towards ensuring the situation won't repeat itself - that the commitment they assumed won't be again broken.
[/quote]
R&R is not the world's psychiatrist.

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307561517' post='2727182']
Like I said, everything in this treaty the UINE government has promised to carry through with anyway. We are making sure that they are carried through. And Term 5 is not intended to be a never-ending clause that limits Term 1. UINE claimed innocence and guilt at the same time by saying that they allowed keve rule like a dictator, and that they would change it to ensure that war wouldn't happen again. We wrote it in treaty form. Like MajorLu (the current UINE leader) says on the UINE announcement, she tried to issue democratic reforms before, but they were avoided.
[/quote]
Because UINE is not a democracy and it is not R&R's right or responsibility to make it one. UINE is an autocratic empire and if MajorLu wants to be in a democracy she can join ODN.

[Lukapaka]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307562304' post='2727196']
Though, what I am getting from all this is that should R&R, MHA, and Sparta would readily accept terms such as those should they lose a war and none of them would cry one bit over them even being offered. Same with GOD and CSN.
[/quote]

Yes, because we had... anything to do with the terms? Sorry, wait. What? We advocated these terms by doing..... what? Being R&R's allies?

Our allies entered a war, won it, and for that I commend them. I learned about the negotiated terms the same time the rest of the world did. Am I thrilled with them? Not really. But that's something for us to discuss with our allies privately. On the OWF, I'm going to give R&R a big high five and say 'good work team'.

If you really insist on projecting an alliances actions on all of their allies, go for it. All it does is make you ignorant.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307562418' post='2727199']
These are not our reps, they are AiD's for the techraiding of 5 of their members.

@ Dochartaigh:

Lol, I love this switching of opinions. When R&R declared war everybody was like "Hmm, yeah keve is getting what he deserves, nobody likes keve". Now that the war is over and something's being done, we're the only ones that want keve out? No, like was said again and again, all of these promised reforms were what allured us to peace, we want to avoid future conflicts with UINE. Their history has shown that reforms need to be ensured, not just promised, and that they have had problems with many alliances repeatedly. We are ensuring that we do not need to fight any more costly wars for allies again (keep in mind this was for allies since R&R received 0 reps)

Edit: And also what NoFish quoted above...
[/quote]

I think you need to reread my post there mate. I have stated time and again that it is UINE's decision and not R&R's. I am friends with Keve but he messed up big time. I even stated that Keve needed to be removed but it should be done because UINE wanted to, not because they were told to do so by R&R.

If you want to avoid future conflicts with UINE, maybe, just maybe you need to talk to the gov. Keve's slots were empty for all of 20 hours or some such when R&R declared without going to other gov members. When R&R finally decided to go to other gov, they may not have known anything but they were more than willing to pay the remaining reps. Go figure, R&R could have avoided a conflict with UINE had they approached other gov members first...

UINE's history is UINE's history. It is not R&R's history. It is not my history. Thus, it is up to neither of us to decide what is best for UINE. Trying to pass this travesty off as something good is just !@#$%^&*. R&R is just riding the high life while they can and have begun abusing other alliances along the way. This most certainly has colored many alliances' perception of R&R and not for the better.

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307562876' post='2727206']
I did not hear the discussion of the terms so I didn't know this even until NoFish posted the quote but those terms are all what UINE wanted. They were given what they asked, and all of the terms were still ensuring they do what they promised. They promised to keep keve out temporarily, pay the reps, and not start any more conflicts. That's ALL the agreement does. The only way R&R benefits from that treaty is ensuring peace so we do not need to spend money for no reps anymore.

Edit: Keep in mind that the raiding of an AA is what put them at odds with AiD in the first place, which started the whole $36 mil reps situation.
[/quote]

Please stop. Just because an alliance signs a surrender treaty does not by any means imply they want the terms. They simply wish to get out of the war instead of suffering further damage to their alliance. In the case of UINE, they were attempting to reorganize their alliance as well as were still rebuilding from the last war. So, do not state they wanted !@#$ as that is one of the dumbest arguments that continues to see use in these forums.

If R&R were to have signed similar terms, I highly doubt it would be because R&R would want those terms in the least. So please just stop already.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1307565191' post='2727238']
I don't like these terms. But considering that UINE was redeclared on for not fulfilling peace terms, they're lucky to get any peace so soon. Would no peace terms be better? I think that, actually, yes. We've had some ridiculously long wars in the last few years but after three days, you shouldn't offer anything if what you're going to offer is like this.

I can't agree with peace terms that affect alliances' internal affairs, even if it's a terrible alliance like UINE. And particularly if they are permanent.

Edit: The anti-raiding one is particularly bad considering SF's own attitude to raiding.
[/quote]

Actually, the war was over a separate issue than the last war. It was due to an issue prior to the war and had nothing to do with peace terms at all. This was over Keve/UINE having made a promise to pay $36 million and then paying half of that on May 25th and then on June 4th having his slots empty for 20 hours before R&R declared war for Keve not paying the other half of the reps.

[REGHAR73]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307559689' post='2727152']

The government was already going to remove keve,
[/quote]
I think you'll find this was only done after the DOW and there had been no intention to do so before that point. It was a necessary evil due to position that the UINE was put in, by themselves and RnR.

Just so everyone is clear.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307567520' post='2727263']
If you want to avoid future conflicts with UINE, maybe, just maybe you need to talk to the gov.
[/quote]

If I recall, Keve told R&R to [i]only[/i] talk to him about this. As he's the UINE leader, they respected his wish.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307561974' post='2727193']
Except you miss one very key issue, UINE should make that choice on their own and not looking down the barrel of a gun. Another issue you missed was that UINE was already taking steps to remove Keve from office, legally and on their own. These terms unfortunately now took that matter out of their rightful hands and put it in R&R's.

This whole thing was for R&R's benefit. R&R's ally, admittedly, got screwed around by Keve/UINE. R&R went to war because R&R wanted to. Read the DoW. Notice how many times R&R refers to itself.

"Now what's 4 more days after such a long time? Not much so again he got an extension. Yesterday his slots cleared. [b]We[/b] waited and waited but no reps were being send. This is where [b]we[/b] draw the line."

"My best guess is that it's because AiD is too small to do anything about it. Thats why [b]we[/b] made sure the deal was not signed only with them, but with [b]us[/b] too."

"...[b]we[/b] hereby declare war on UINE for breach of terms agreed on in january 2011."

Now, before anyone attempts to claim that R&R was also talking about AID, I did not see any AID signatures on the DoW and the title stated specifically "R&R DoW". So this entire war became about R&R wanting something from UINE. Obviously given the allusions to R&R demanding UINE also cancel on Polaris and expel Keve from the alliance and even considering installing a viceroy, R&R wanted more than just reperations for AID. These terms show exactly what R&R wanted.

Is it not obvious that R&R did not like Keve? Yup, that should be fairly obvious to anyone who can read. So, in part, UINE being forced to expel Keve from gov by R&R is due to R&R not liking Keve. Sure Keve screwed up, but what should R&R care if he stays gov? If Keve messes with AID, R&R, or any other R&R ally, then R&R DoWs again. It is not that hard.

So, I can most certainly agree that Keve needed to be removed from office for failures to lead and protect UINE it should have stayed entirely in the hands of UINE and UINE alone.
[/quote]

You missed my point so I'll try to rephrase it. Keve failed to managed their end of the deal for the first time, so RnR was entitled to require someone else to do it the second time in order for UINE to have another chance.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Lukapaka' timestamp='1307567465' post='2727261']
Yes, because we had... anything to do with the terms? Sorry, wait. What? We advocated these terms by doing..... what? Being R&R's allies?

Our allies entered a war, won it, and for that I commend them. I learned about the negotiated terms the same time the rest of the world did. Am I thrilled with them? Not really. But that's something for us to discuss with our allies privately. On the OWF, I'm going to give R&R a big high five and say 'good work team'.

If you really insist on projecting an alliances actions on all of their allies, go for it. All it does is make you ignorant.
[/quote]

Saying well done, you won a war is a far cry from what |\/|yth has been doing and what CSN gov has been doing. I do apologize for lumping in Sparta as it appears I did misread the two posts from Spartan gov. I would include GOD but them condoning terms like this are par for course and not worth mentioning.

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1307568266' post='2727277']
You missed my point so I'll try to rephrase it. Keve failed to managed their end of the deal for the first time, so RnR was entitled to require someone else to do it the second time in order for UINE to have another chance.
[/quote]

Okay, and that entitles R&R to demand term 1? No. It entitles R&R to demand term #2. Period. Term #2 accomplishes the task of requiring someone else to do it. Hell, for that matter, R&R could have specifically denied Keve any capability of paying the reps himself and designated a person in UINE gov to make the payments instead.

So, I think you have failed to actually address any point I made in regards to your attempts to justify term #1. There were far better ways to accomplish what you stated than to force UINE to make internal changes as R&R has done.

[Jens of the desert]

One alliance should have no right in changing another alliance's charter.

[Stealthkill]

Doch, you caught us. We knew what we were asking was completely unreasonable and totally immoral (even though we received little negotiating resistance from UINE), but our almighty leader Xiphosis demanded that only Liz may decide what surrender terms we issued. She's a tyrant I say! A tyrant! We tried to get out of them, that's why we accepted every change UINE requested, but it just wasn't enough! We're helpless! Please don't take your anger out on us, we're powerless meatshields. Please free us from the clench of our overlord Xiphosis and his mistress! Save us Dochartaigh, you're our only hope.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Actually, the war was over a separate issue than the last war. It was due to an issue prior to the war and had nothing to do with peace terms at all.[/quote]
Right, sorry, I read the R&R DoW as saying that the raids had escalated to a full war and the reps were peace terms for it. Although considering they were peacing out a 'raid' on an alliance, I'd still say that 'peace terms' is appropriate. [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=96857]Here's the terms[/url] (linked from the DoW). Funny how he says 'case closed' in there

[Mathias]

Can we please put to rest the arguments that UINE didn't put up resistance in negotiations and that they wanted these changes? In regards to the former, UINE is incompetent. That's why this whole situation occurred, and the fact that they don't know how to negotiate just shows that R&R needlessly took advantage of that. As far as the latter is concerned, it doesn't matter that UINE wanted them. If they wanted them, they would put the changes in place. R&R has no right to run UINE, even if they're running it how the membership would like.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Mathias

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307568916' post='2727287']
Saying well done, you won a war is a far cry from what |\/|yth has been doing and what CSN gov has been doing. I do apologize for lumping in Sparta as it appears I did misread the two posts from Spartan gov. I would include GOD but them condoning terms like this are par for course and not worth mentioning.
[/quote]

Hold the presses!

I was completely disturbed at the lack of responsibility UINE itself took for the entire situation, and to say that has been assuaged in my mind would be a lie.

UINE members in this thread started saying that at no point during the entire duration of the three day "conflict," did they throw their leader under the bus.

I made the connection from UINE's MoFA's comments minutes after war had been declared in UINE's public channel proved otherwise.

I was met with two seperate responses, one that "Well it was a hectic situation," and "People are allowed to change their mind."

Neither refute my original statement.

I think you're insinuating I actually made a comment to the affect of what I feel about the terms, when my comments have all been addressing my lack of regard for UINE's handling of the entire situation, before, during, and after.

Read into that however you like.

Edit: No, nothing was taken out of context. Hopefully you've learned, granted, any government is better than the previous from what I've seen here.

Edited June 8, 2011 by IYIyTh

[Jrenster]

I'm not sure how these terms are at all justified. Not from a moral standpoint, just from a rational standpoint. What the hell does instituting a Magna Carta-like document have anything to do with UINE's incompetence that led to these issues?

Edited June 8, 2011 by Jrenster