R&R-UINE Announcement

[REGHAR73]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1307522749' post='2726833']
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> well, we've got to do this in as legal a way as possible
Snip
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> so could we please have time to do the job properly
Snip
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> and make sure that if we do get rid of Keve, he's gone for good

Snip

[00:41] <+The_Archduke> I'll go to the forums to announce that 'the Emperor has been found incapable (at least temporarily) of governing in accordance with international law and is facing impeachment under internal proceedings'

Really?

This was about 5 minutes after the DoW in #UINE and later by the MoFA of UINE.

This must be some strange use of the words, "defending him to the hilt," that I was not previously aware of!

Thanks for helping me get my "facts," in order.
[/quote]
Well Arch spoke his mind not that of the the UINE Gov. He had no business making comments stating as such The final terms show the arrangement made was very different to his original statements in fact completely contradicts them. Keve has been removed as leader true. Is he expelled from the alliance - no. Can he work in Gov(after terms) - Yes. That is fact.

I am still waiting to see the laws quoted by Arch in textual form he was meaning.
Not that any of this is really your concern.

Edited June 8, 2011 by REGHAR73

[Varianz]

New Hegemony? Says who?

[DarkEra97]

[quote name='REGHAR73' timestamp='1307551705' post='2727058']
Did you read the posts before or are you just mindlessly commenting?
[/quote]

Did your alliance read the terms before surrendering or are you just mindlessly following R&R's orders?

[GeoLauzier]

But NPO did worst !!!

[Horatio Longworth]

Congrats on peace to both parties. Though #4 and #5 cause me to raise an eyebrow.
o/ All

[Buzz Lightyear]

[quote name='GeoLauzier' timestamp='1307552794' post='2727066']
But NPO did worst !!!
[/quote]
not gonna lie, thats kinda funny seeing a MK member say that

[Varianz]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307505136' post='2726613']
Yeah it was considered



This was considered too, but then we would actually have to defend them and cover for their screw-ups.


We're well aware of how the terms will be received, so a little explanation. After our attack all we got was "omg, we didn't know", "blame keve", "why are you punishing all of us for one persons actions" from member to government.

So we looked over everything that happened and decided to fix the problems before it happens again with one of our allies or someone else for that matter.
[/quote]
Haha I just saw this. I don't even know how to respond to the flippant way you seem to have considered a viceroy.

[TIEIXIAIS]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1307506452' post='2726640']
Is it though?

I think that depends on how earnest you think R&R is about their implied intentions. They seem genuinely to want to teach them something now that they've found out what a disaster of an alliance they are. That pretty much can only be accomplished two ways when your an adversary, either by a forced guiding hand or by beating their face in for a substantial period of time. Instead of going with the latter, they went with the former and ended the war after only a few days. Stigmas of old were based on situations where such forced guiding hands were blatantly used to harm under nothing but the most facial assertion of a false benevolent pretext, and maybe its just me, but that's just not the feeling I get here.
[/quote]

Team RnR world police. #*&# yeah!

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Chaoshawk' timestamp='1307505823' post='2726628']
Oh cool, R&R installs democracy in UINE. I don't think UINE members wouldn't mind the more democratic changes these terms force them to do after seeing keve69's inactivity and/or incompetence rather than couping him afterward. A good opportunity for them I believe.
[/quote]

That should have been UINE's decision and no one else's. Period.

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307506094' post='2726631']
Actually you're right, the current gov members already wanted reforms but where stonewalled. Wejust made sure the next leaser doesn't go on a powertrip and stonewalls it again.

The terms everyone is baawing about where actually not such a hot topic during discussions it seems.
[/quote]

If the current gov members wanted the reforms, why are they being presented via R&R's surrender terms to UINE? If you wanted to help, having Keve expelled from gov should have been more than enough since he would have been the one stonewalling. With him out of gov, then the current gov of UINE could easily have made the reforms on their own without any need for R&R's interference.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1307506452' post='2726640']
Is it though?

I think that depends on how earnest you think R&R is about their implied intentions. They seem genuinely to want to teach them something now that they've found out what a disaster of an alliance they are. That pretty much can only be accomplished two ways when your an adversary, either by a forced guiding hand or by beating their face in for a substantial period of time. Instead of going with the latter, they went with the former and ended the war after only a few days. Stigmas of old were based on situations where such forced guiding hands were blatantly used to harm under nothing but the most facial assertion of a false benevolent pretext, and maybe its just me, but that's just not the feeling I get here.
[/quote]

From reading posts after this, R&R have no intention of teaching UINE a damn thing. They simply dictated the internal affairs of UINE and then left. So their intentions are nowhere near as honorable as you are trying to claim.

[quote name='Demosthenes Locke' timestamp='1307506550' post='2726644']
Too bad we couldn't do the same to bandwagoners like yourself.

As for the rest of you who are crying about how cruel and imperialist we are: get over it. We gave you our explanation for the terms agreed upon by both parties, they won't be changing anytime soon. There has never been a time where R&R did not conduct itself in the best manner possible during negotiations or diplomatic affairs. You will be very hard-pressed to find an example of malevolent motive behind any R&R action.
[/quote]

The internal changes made speak volumes in and of themselves. Nothing else really needs to be said.

[quote name='DemonSpawn' timestamp='1307519554' post='2726822']
Then why did you accept the terms?
[/quote]

I would say it has to do with the fact that R&R is how many times larger than UINE and thus could easily handle a prolonged war much better than UINE.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1307534959' post='2726901']
When Polaris tried to enforce \m/ to properly use their own charter nearly everyone said that we were trying to be become World Police, now UINE fails to pay some millions in reparations and as result it have to face R&R dictating their internal affairs and changing their charter, so how we should call R&R?

This surrender terms are ridiculous, they just shows that R&R is astonished with their current power and position in cyberverse and as result of it imposed exaggerated and unnecessary surrender terms, and I'm even more disappointed in see that UINE accepted this terms and that they don't think that's a big deal, what a shame.
[/quote]

Actually very few outside of R&R's direct allies are actually commending them for the terms. Most everyone from CnG alliances to MK to others are condemning them for the terms. Should give credit where credit is due mate.

[Kochers]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307529219' post='2726861']
You also didn't like the polar treaty cancellation for the duration of terms, as you can see it's no longer in there.
[/quote]
...yeah, you may have wanted to keep it secret that you even suggested cancelling one of their treaties as a term...

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1307530633' post='2726868']
I guess the temptation of power is too hard to resist. Poor show.. and I don't know who's worse, R&R for pushing the crappy terms, or the rest of UINE government that lightly and easily accept infringing terms like this.
[/quote]
Yeah, its one thing for RnR to even offer those terms, but the fact that UINE accepted them...

[quote name='Jessebelle' timestamp='1307531380' post='2726875']
UINE got themselves into this mess. Unfair reps? I think not. A [i]little[/i] harsh, perhaps. But certainly not to call R&R the 'most turrible alliance ever'. C'mon now, a couple of days ago we held R&R in such high grace. What happened to make them fall so far, so fast?

Don't tell me at least HALF of you wouldn't do the same in Ego's shoes?
[/quote]
Nope, its pretty easy to realize when you're over-stepping your bounds, at least for most people.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1307551275' post='2727054']
Yeah all these dumb moralists from MK, Athens, Olympus, Valhalla, NSO, Poison Clan, and GOONS are just maniacs out for cheap shots against ~The Man~. Protip, SpacingOutMan: read thread, then post.
[/quote]

Yes, because moralists are [i]totally[/i] limited to a choice number of alliances? No, every alliance has their fair share of moralists. Likewise, perhaps did you consider (for once) that I, myself, am a bit of a moralist? Protip, Schatt: I am, despite what my CSN moniker may (or may not) indicate. The entire basis behind this war rested on two major "problems": unpaid reparations and Keve himself. The surrender terms fixed both of those issues and Admin knows UINE needed help revamping themselves. Keve wasn't banned from UINE; he was removed from leadership for this round, and is allowed to return to governorship as soon as UINE picks up the pieces and pays it remaining reparations. Clearly, Keve in leadership failed in paying reparations before, so for the sake of having those remaining reparations paid off (in full and on time), Keve had to be removed for a timely manner for that to succeed.

The most unjust punishment with these reparations are instilling any sort of democracy in UINE; democracy is the bane of all societies and must be weeded out. Autocracy is the only -ocracy that should be allowed!

But in all seriousness, the only terms I'd imagine people could make any argument for would be 3 & 4 (3 being no tech-raiding alliances of 1 member and 4 being the keeping government in check). Tech-raiding started this whole spiel so it's understandable why something of the sorts would be implemented (to what degree I'd imagine would be the debate, from none to, say, 10+ members being considered an AA). As for 4, well, here rages this debate.

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='Vladimir Nikanor' timestamp='1307536008' post='2726906']
...Peace is good. Keve out of Government is great. Essentially writing another alliance's charter and coming up with so many intrusions is rather imperialistic. What does INT and LSF have to say about this?
[/quote]

I don't believe the congress of INT has adopted a formal position on the subject, although I expressed my personal opinions somewhere around page three of this thread (I think). In general, R&R is fine alliance led by very reasonable people, and when a situation like this arises, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. Until the time comes when R&R calls upon her loyal friends in INT to help crush the (tongue firmly in cheek) UINE menace, it's really none of our business.

As for your assertion that all interventions are equally imperialistic, I think the quote in my signature kind of addresses that (false equity, etc.).

-Craig

Edited June 8, 2011 by Comrade Craig

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1307556335' post='2727107']
Yes, because moralists are [i]totally[/i] limited to a choice number of alliances? No, every alliance has their fair share of moralists. Likewise, perhaps did you consider (for once) that I, myself, am a bit of a moralist? Protip, Schatt: I am, despite what my CSN moniker may (or may not) indicate. The entire basis behind this war rested on two major "problems": unpaid reparations and Keve himself. The surrender terms fixed both of those issues and Admin knows UINE needed help revamping themselves. Keve wasn't banned from UINE; he was removed from leadership for this round, and is allowed to return to governorship as soon as UINE picks up the pieces and pays it remaining reparations. Clearly, Keve in leadership failed in paying reparations before, so for the sake of having those remaining reparations paid off (in full and on time), Keve had to be removed for a timely manner for that to succeed.

The most unjust punishment with these reparations are instilling any sort of democracy in UINE; democracy is the bane of all societies and must be weeded out. Autocracy is the only -ocracy that should be allowed!

But in all seriousness, the only terms I'd imagine people could make any argument for would be 3 & 4 (3 being no tech-raiding alliances of 1 member and 4 being the keeping government in check). Tech-raiding started this whole spiel so it's understandable why something of the sorts would be implemented (to what degree I'd imagine would be the debate, from none to, say, 10+ members being considered an AA). As for 4, well, here rages this debate.
[/quote]

Yes, all hail R&R for saving Planet Bob from the UINE Tech Raiding Menace Machine of Eternal Death and Damnation!!!!!! amidoinitrite?

Tech raiding will always cause issues at some point or another. Just ask \m/, NEW, Athens, and many others. It is not for R&R to decide who is or is not allowed to tech raid or what # of nations UINE will or will not recognize as an alliance. It is not up to R&R to decide if UINE stays an autocratic alliance or converts to democracy. It is not up to R&R if UINE has or does not have Keve as their emperor, president, or high Prophet of the Church of Admin.

I would not doubt the amount of crying that would be done by R&R should any alliance dare to demand the same sort of terms for them and R&R were not in the position to actually win the war or come out of a prolonged war anywhere close to what someone would call intact.

The only term that is actually reasonable is the reps. #5 is just plain ridiculous. #1,3, and 4 are just straight pathetic but yes, considering the terms that CSN has begun to fully endorse, support, and condone, I do not expect even you SOM to raise any sort of objection to them.

[Alex987]

I understand all of the controversy over the dictation of the terms, but they are not ridiculous. I will go through the terms one by one why they are not ridiculous.

1: Current gov says that keve is the root of all evil. Fair game, keve cannot be in gov for ONE ROUND. All that does is allow the current gov clean up UINE like they say they will, keve can return when he cleans up his.
2: No explanation needed, pay the rest of reps
3: Similar here, ban on techraiding for allied nations (which caused the whole AiD reps situation to start), even though they can still techraid unallied nations
4: UINE claims that this war was a result of keve not letting information escape to the rest of the alliance? Whatever, we can sympathize with that too, although it's not the most robust argument. I understand that there are good people under an oppressive government. Now there are elections. No more claiming innocence from not being involved or knowing what is going on.
5: Redundant point in my opinion. An attack on R&R or our allies can warrant war anyway, this is just making sure the result of further aggression is obvious.

Not a SINGLE one of these terms is pointed at taking away from UINE's position maliciously to benefit R&R. We asked for no reps. The terms install a government of people that were ALREADY in the alliance (unlike the comments that we should install an R&R viceroy) and were running the alliance during keve's absence. The only thing that this treaty does is reiterate the obvious course of action. All of these terms were already promised by UINE when the war ended. The government was already going to remove keve, pay reps, not tech raid alliances, have some GA involvement to prevent dictatorship (not even explicitly stated, just vaguely stating "by direct GA involvement", not "by elections every month"), and not have further wars against R&R. These were already promised by UINE. The ONLY thing this treaty does is make sure that UINE follows through on their promises, because frankly they are less than trustworthy given their history. I hope that can change with better leadership like has been promised...

Edited June 8, 2011 by Alex987

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307559321' post='2727148']
Tech raiding will always cause issues at some point or another. Just ask \m/, NEW, Athens, and many others. It is not for R&R to decide who is or is not allowed to tech raid or what # of nations UINE will or will not recognize as an alliance. It is not up to R&R to decide if UINE stays an autocratic alliance or converts to democracy. It is not up to R&R if UINE has or does not have Keve as their emperor, president, or high Prophet of the Church of Admin.
[/quote]

Actually and thinking over it, UINE assumed a commitment towards RnR and AiD - that is to pay reparations. Due to internal reasons those reparations were not payed and RnR enacted consequences on UINE. New agreement that stops these consequences requires UINE to pay the same value, however, it also requires UINE to change the variables that caused the first agreement to fail - which means the replacement of Keve and what not.

There is a substantial difference between this occurrence and an arbitrary "we don't like you, you won't be government anymore" term. Keve actually messed up enough to cause RnR to go to war against UINE and there is some sense in avoiding that the exact same situation repeats itself by letting everything as it is. The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing the same way and expecting different results. More than an exclusion from government, removing Keve from office is a step towards ensuring the situation won't repeat itself - that the commitment they assumed won't be again broken.

And from that perspective I can agree with his removal from office.

[Varianz]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307559689' post='2727152']
I understand all of the controversy over the dictation of the terms, but they are not ridiculous. I will go through the terms one by one why they are not ridiculous.

1: Current gov says that keve is the root of all evil. Fair game, keve cannot be in gov for ONE ROUND. All that does is allow the current gov clean up UINE like they say they will, keve can return when he cleans up his.
2: No explanation needed, pay the rest of reps
3: Similar here, ban on techraiding for allied nations (which caused the whole AiD reps situation to start), even though they can still techraid unallied nations
4: UINE claims that this war was a result of keve not letting information escape to the rest of the alliance? Whatever, we can sympathize with that too, although it's not the most robust argument. I understand that there are good people under an oppressive government. Now there are elections. No more claiming innocence from not being involved or knowing what is going on.
5: Redundant point in my opinion. An attack on R&R or our allies can warrant war anyway, this is just making sure the result of further aggression is obvious.

Not a SINGLE one of these terms is pointed at taking away from UINE's position maliciously to benefit R&R. We asked for no reps. The terms install a government of people that were ALREADY in the alliance (unlike the comments that we should install an R&R viceroy) and were running the alliance during keve's absence. The only thing that this treaty does is reiterate the obvious course of action. All of these terms were already promised by UINE when the war ended. The government was already going to remove keve, pay reps, not tech raid alliances, have some GA involvement to prevent dictatorship (not even explicitly stated, just vaguely stating "by direct GA involvement", not "by elections every month"), and not have further wars against R&R. These were already promised by UINE. The ONLY thing this treaty does is make sure that UINE follows through on their promises, because frankly they are less than trustworthy given their history. I hope that can change with better leadership like has been promised...
[/quote]
1. Keve is kept out of gov forever, since term 5 is an unending term.
2. No problem with paying the remaining reps.
3. Who are you to say who they can and can't tech raid? 1 nation AA's is a ridiculous threshold- the general standard I'm aware of is that anything below ~5 is fine as long as they aren't protected.
4. Forcing charter changes is fine by you? Also, your argument is essentially that autocracy is bad, so can we expect further efforts by R&R to spread democracy to Cybernations? Maybe start with your allies?
5. So what if, say, Sparta declared on Polar (random choice of alliances). Sparta is an ally of R&R- this clause would mandate that UINE cannot defend Polar. Further, this term has no expiration date.

[Stealthkill]

Meh, the point of the terms were to A, get AiD the money they were owed, and B, make sure that UINE didn't get into a situation like this again. So yeah, we asked for some reforms. UINE agreed to meet them. Hell, they were gonna do some of them already. Haters gonna hate, but hey, might as well let 'em.

[Varianz]

[quote name='Stealthkill' timestamp='1307560900' post='2727168']
Meh, the point of the terms were to A, get AiD the money they were owed, and B, make sure that UINE didn't get into a situation like this again. So yeah, we asked for some reforms. UINE agreed to meet them. Hell, they were gonna do some of them already. Haters gonna hate, but hey, might as well let 'em.
[/quote]
The fact that you admit to initially demanding that UINE cancel on Polar really takes away any pretense you could make to having UINE's best interests at heart.

[jakeayres]

Not sure I agree with demanding charter edits, even if it is in UINEs favour to implement them.

Congrats on peace though, seems both parties got what they deserved this time.

[Alex987]

Like I said, everything in this treaty the UINE government has promised to carry through with anyway. We are making sure that they are carried through. And Term 5 is not intended to be a never-ending clause that limits Term 1. UINE claimed innocence and guilt at the same time by saying that they allowed keve rule like a dictator, and that they would change it to ensure that war wouldn't happen again. We wrote it in treaty form. Like MajorLu (the current UINE leader) says on the UINE announcement, she tried to issue democratic reforms before, but they were avoided. Being that MajorLu is the appointed leader by UINE (NOT R&R), those reforms would be made anyway. UNLESS they were just empty promises to finish the conflict quickly. This is most likely not the case, but like I said before, UINE's history has required these measures to be spelled out letter by letter.

[Cobalt]

For shame R&R, look what you have become. First you expect another alliance to follow through and pay its debts, then you install a governing process with electoral oversight? ELECTORAL OVERSIGHT? Gosh, the nerve of you people...

Also, parts of the peace agreement is poorly written. Anyone with half a brain knows you're not trying to keep Keve out of gov forever by making term 5 an eternal clause - you should re-write it so thats clear.

Unless you are trying to keep Keve out of government forever by making term 5 an eternal clause which impedes his ability to re-ascend to gov as outlined in term 1... in which case; for shame.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Cobalt

[Mathias]

[quote name='Stealthkill' timestamp='1307560900' post='2727168']
Meh, the point of the terms were to A, get AiD the money they were owed, and B, make sure that UINE didn't get into a situation like this again. So yeah, we asked for some reforms. UINE agreed to meet them. Hell, they were gonna do some of them already. Haters gonna hate, but hey, might as well let 'em.
[/quote]

It's not your place to make sure UINE stays out of situations like this. If they want to see reforms, they can do that on their on terms without having them shoved down their throat during a war. UINE didn't pay so you punished them, take your reps and leave you have no right to dictate their inner workings indefinitely or even at all.

The fact that you think this is acceptable is astounding and speaks volumes.

[Diabloz]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1307547095' post='2726992']
Could be worse. You were just in Gotham. You should know.
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97693"]I agree[/url]
[/quote]

When did Gotham allow any alliance to be involved in its internal structure, or even decide the faith of Gotham?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1307560579' post='2727162']
Actually and thinking over it, UINE assumed a commitment towards RnR and AiD - that is to pay reparations. Due to internal reasons those reparations were not payed and RnR enacted consequences on UINE. New agreement that stops these consequences requires UINE to pay the same value, however, it also requires UINE to change the variables that caused the first agreement to fail - which means the replacement of Keve and what not.

There is a substantial difference between this occurrence and an arbitrary "we don't like you, you won't be government anymore" term. Keve actually messed up enough to cause RnR to go to war against UINE and there is some sense in avoiding that the exact same situation repeats itself by letting everything as it is. The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing the same way and expecting different results. More than an exclusion from government, removing Keve from office is a step towards ensuring the situation won't repeat itself - that the commitment they assumed won't be again broken.

And from that perspective I can agree with his removal from office.
[/quote]

Except you miss one very key issue, UINE should make that choice on their own and not looking down the barrel of a gun. Another issue you missed was that UINE was already taking steps to remove Keve from office, legally and on their own. These terms unfortunately now took that matter out of their rightful hands and put it in R&R's.

This whole thing was for R&R's benefit. R&R's ally, admittedly, got screwed around by Keve/UINE. R&R went to war because R&R wanted to. Read the DoW. Notice how many times R&R refers to itself.

"Now what's 4 more days after such a long time? Not much so again he got an extension. Yesterday his slots cleared. [b]We[/b] waited and waited but no reps were being send. This is where [b]we[/b] draw the line."

"My best guess is that it's because AiD is too small to do anything about it. Thats why [b]we[/b] made sure the deal was not signed only with them, but with [b]us[/b] too."

"...[b]we[/b] hereby declare war on UINE for breach of terms agreed on in january 2011."

Now, before anyone attempts to claim that R&R was also talking about AID, I did not see any AID signatures on the DoW and the title stated specifically "R&R DoW". So this entire war became about R&R wanting something from UINE. Obviously given the allusions to R&R demanding UINE also cancel on Polaris and expel Keve from the alliance and even considering installing a viceroy, R&R wanted more than just reperations for AID. These terms show exactly what R&R wanted.

Is it not obvious that R&R did not like Keve? Yup, that should be fairly obvious to anyone who can read. So, in part, UINE being forced to expel Keve from gov by R&R is due to R&R not liking Keve. Sure Keve screwed up, but what should R&R care if he stays gov? If Keve messes with AID, R&R, or any other R&R ally, then R&R DoWs again. It is not that hard.

So, I can most certainly agree that Keve needed to be removed from office for failures to lead and protect UINE it should have stayed entirely in the hands of UINE and UINE alone.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Cobalt' timestamp='1307561655' post='2727184']
For shame R&R, look what you have become. First you expect another alliance to follow through and pay its debts, then you install a governing process with electoral oversight? ELECTORAL OVERSIGHT? Gosh, the nerve of you people...

Also, parts of the peace agreement is poorly written. Anyone with half a brain knows you're not trying to keep Keve out of gov forever by making term 5 an eternal clause - you should re-write it so thats clear.

Unless you are trying to keep Keve out of government forever by making term 5 an eternal clause which impedes his ability to re-ascend to gov as outlined in term 1... in which case; for shame.
[/quote]

I love how advocates for R&R continue to bring up the reperations which no one has made any bones about. So that is a non-issue and is simply being used as some sort of distraction to the real issue, terms 1,3, and 4.

Though, what I am getting from all this is that should R&R, MHA, and Sparta would readily accept terms such as those should they lose a war and none of them would cry one bit over them even being offered. Same with GOD and CSN.