R&R-UINE Announcement

[DemonSpawn]

No, is always an option.

And it's R&R, thank you.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='REGHAR73' timestamp='1307519565' post='2726823']
No actually we defended him to the hilt as RnR wanted expulsion from the alliance. Which we would not allow. Get your facts straight.
[/quote]

[00:26] <+The_Archduke> well, we've got to do this in as legal a way as possible
Snip
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> so could we please have time to do the job properly
Snip
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> and make sure that if we do get rid of Keve, he's gone for good

Snip

[00:41] <+The_Archduke> I'll go to the forums to announce that 'the Emperor has been found incapable (at least temporarily) of governing in accordance with international law and is facing impeachment under internal proceedings'

Really?

This was about 5 minutes after the DoW in #UINE and later by the MoFA of UINE.

This must be some strange use of the words, "defending him to the hilt," that I was not previously aware of!

Thanks for helping me get my "facts," in order.

Edited June 8, 2011 by IYIyTh

[kriekfreak]

The plot thickens

[Hereno]

[quote name='REGHAR73' timestamp='1307519565' post='2726823']
*snip* RnR wanted expulsion from the alliance. *snip*
[/quote]

I am interested in seeing proof of this.

[askani the rotund]

I'm going to say some things that may not make me very popular at home,

This war was a result of very poor communication on our part, Our way of doing things was dysfunctional at best and needed to change.
So let's take these "unfair" terms one at a time shall we?

"1. The immediate expulsion of keve69 from government, a declaration on the OWF with the new government and a statement he is no longer in charge of UINE. Keve may return to government after the remaining terms are completed, Keve69 (or his altenative name should he ever decide to reroll) is no longer allowed to be the sole leader of UINE."

[b]This is nothing we didn't do ourselves within 2 hours of hostilities[/b]

"2. 21M in reps for AiD to be paid by anyone who wants to, within 2 days of delivery of the target list."

[b]Hey, we do owe the money.[/b]

"3. A ban on techraiding of any nation part of an AA with more then 1 nation (with the exception of "None")."

[b]My understanding is that our MoD had issued a very similar edict already[/b]

"4. UINE will revise their charter in which the absolute power of the emperor (or any other form of leader(s)) will permanently be kept in Check by direct GA involvement (for example term-based elected emperors)."

[b]This change was absolutely needed.We were paralyzed by the old way of doing things.[/b]


"5. From the date of this agreement forward, UINE will not be allowed to interfere with or attack the R&R alliance or any alliance that R&R is treatied with, unless it is in self-defense from an act of aggression launched against UINE by R&R or her allies. Any form of aggression from UINE towards R&R or her allies may be considered an act of war."

[b]Wouldn't this be the case anyway? With anyone?[/b]

[b]I'm fine with the terms, they're absolutely fair.I would like to thank all the parties involved in helping to reach them.[/b]

Edited June 8, 2011 by askani the rotund

[Ragashingo]

Utterly classless R&R. What you did was the most low down rotten move by any alliance I can recall. Certainly the worst in recent memory.

[alyster]

Gosh, now you have to spoil your nice war with dictating internal politics of another alliance. Even if UINE themselves see a need of change, doesn't mean someone else gets to dictate it to them.

This war was too good to be true

Edited June 8, 2011 by alyster

[Tygaland]

[quote name='askani the rotund' timestamp='1307525292' post='2726841']
"4. UINE will revise their charter in which the absolute power of the emperor (or any other form of leader(s)) will permanently be kept in Check by direct GA involvement (for example term-based elected emperors)."

[b]This change was absolutely needed.We were paralyzed by the old way of doing things.[/b]
[/quote]

If you'd already "impeached" Keve, as you said you had, then I'd have thought the membership of UINE, if what you say is correct and that the change in Charter was needed, could have changed it. Whether than be by amendment or the implementation of a new Charter on the approval of your membership.

I'm perplexed that you are of the opinion that your alliance was a cork in the ocean bobbing about helplessly with regards to such reforms and that the only way out was for another alliance to mandate the change for you. Ridiculous.

As far as the terms are concerned, the reps are fine as they are what was owed plus a small "late fee".

The "expulsion of Keve from government" clause would have caused some movement in chefjoe's trousers as it is straight out of his noCB playbook. Perhaps he left it lying about?

Mandating a Charter change with regards to the form and function of UINE's government is a disgrace.

Crown Prince Mishka of Tygaland
Grand Arbiter and High Priest of the Church of Moralism

[askani the rotund]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1307527556' post='2726848']
If you'd already "impeached" Keve, as you said you had, then I'd have thought the membership of UINE, if what you say is correct and that the change in Charter was needed, could have changed it. Whether than be by amendment or the implementation of a new Charter on the approval of your membership.

I'm perplexed that you are of the opinion that your alliance was a cork in the ocean bobbing about helplessly with regards to such reforms and that the only way out was for another alliance to mandate the change for you. Ridiculous.

As far as the terms are concerned, the reps are fine as they are what was owed plus a small "late fee".

The "expulsion of Keve from government" clause would have caused some movement in chefjoe's trousers as it is straight out of his noCB playbook. Perhaps he left it lying about?

Mandating a Charter change with regards to the form and function of UINE's government is a disgrace.

Crown Prince Mishka of Tygaland
Grand Arbiter and High Priest of the Church of Moralism
[/quote]

We saw the need for change and had changed the charter prior to Keve's impeachment.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='askani the rotund' timestamp='1307528053' post='2726850']
We saw the need for change and had changed the charter prior to Keve's impeachment.
[/quote]

Then why were things that you had already done put into your terms?

Edited June 8, 2011 by Tygaland

[askani the rotund]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1307528188' post='2726852']
Then why were things that you had already done plut into your terms?
[/quote]

Beats me.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='askani the rotund' timestamp='1307528256' post='2726853']
Beats me.
[/quote]

Hmm, well perhaps an addition of clause 6 demanding GGA disband is in order seeing as we are making demands for things that already happened in peace terms these days.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Tygaland

[berbers]

Congratulations on your victory and subsequent occupation of UINE. They didn't deserve sovereignty anyways, and their charter was all wrong.

o/ NP err I mean R&R

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='REGHAR73' timestamp='1307517531' post='2726805']
Protectorate was never going to happen.

I never at any point in our peace negotiations stated blame keve - I said it was Keve's fault and we would fix it.

Which we will.

We were put into a corner and had no choice but to accept these terms. A nuclear war with no ceasefire during peace talks.

For 18 million which we the government would have paid and told you so immediately. So please don't hide the facts.

We if necessary will learn from NpO or MCXA not such as RnR after this recent display.

All you did was cripple an alliance. That may not have been the intent but it certainly has been the result.
[/quote]

You are correct sir, noone said "blame keve", just "Keve was at fault and we all had no idea and can't be blamed".

This was NOT about 18M anymore for a long time, i think we have made that clear in our DoW AND during negotiations.

Which alliance you learn from is not my concern, we don't want an R&R 2.0 out there, just as long as you're smart enough to learn.

[quote name='REGHAR73' timestamp='1307519565' post='2726823']
No actually we defended him to the hilt as RnR wanted expulsion from the alliance. Which we would not allow. Get your facts straight.
[/quote]

Actually, we never wanted him out of the alliance, we in admins name would we want to give another alliance the headache, the original term was "permanent expulsion from govt" you requested he would be allowed back into gov because he could still contribute, you sir did not defend him to the hilt, we gave in to that request without a fight.

We also gave in without a fight on the original techdealing term, you requested limited techraiding would be allowed i changed the term within 1 minute.

You also didn't like the polar treaty cancellation for the duration of terms, as you can see it's no longer in there.

Now you raised 3 points during negotiations and all you won without much of a fight. Why during all this not one UINE gov member including you commented on the charter change term? It was taken without a single word of discussion. Hell IIRC I was the one changing the term to give UINE more room to make this change in a way of your own choosing, just like I was the one who suggested the charter change period should be at lest 2 months instead of 1 day that UINE suggested because a charter is not something you can rush.

Welcome to the bandwagon, but next time you don't want a term, the least you can do is ask for its removal. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[quote name='REGHAR73' timestamp='1307519637' post='2726825']
RnR left us with no option - why do you think ?
[/quote]


Again, we succeded on every point you raised and even threw you a (little) bone here and there why not try to shoot for more? Don't blame me for your failings in negotiations.

[The Pansy]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1307527556' post='2726848']
The "expulsion of Keve from government" clause would have caused some movement in chefjoe's trousers as it is straight out of his noCB playbook. Perhaps he left it lying about?
[/quote]
Oh Tyga, you bad Kittie, stop making me chuckle.

[The Archduke]

[quote name='askani the rotund' timestamp='1307528053' post='2726850']
We saw the need for change and had changed the charter prior to Keve's impeachment.
[/quote]

To clarify the situation properly, after it was seen that Keve69 was absent and unable to lead UINE, MajorLu was acting Emperor, and using the Emperor's powers as acting Emperor, he revised the constitution, including a clause to set a precedent for impeaching the Emperor. All of this was perfectly in accordance with our former constitution.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1307522749' post='2726833']
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> well, we've got to do this in as legal a way as possible
Snip
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> so could we please have time to do the job properly
Snip
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> and make sure that if we do get rid of Keve, he's gone for good

Snip

[00:41] <+The_Archduke> I'll go to the forums to announce that 'the Emperor has been found incapable (at least temporarily) of governing in accordance with international law and is facing impeachment under internal proceedings'

Really?

This was about 5 minutes after the DoW in #UINE and later by the MoFA of UINE.

This must be some strange use of the words, "defending him to the hilt," that I was not previously aware of!

[/quote]

Please don't take my words out of context. 'Properly' clearly means legally. 'Gone for good' means gone from Emperor, which he has, and the use of the word 'if' should indicate that I was speaking hypothetically, and requesting time to allow for proper legal proceedings. If RnR had been a bit less impetuous, we might have had time to deal with the situation without having to ask for it.

And as for defending him to the hilt, he's still in UINE, no ZI or anything. He's just not leading us any more. I believe that is exactly what Reghar said... 'we defended him to the hilt as RnR wanted expulsion from the alliance. Which we would not allow'. So there you go, I hope that clarifies things.

[Sarmatian Empire]

Hmmmm...so obviously MHA and Sparta are using their past knowledge working with NPO to turn XX into the next NPO!

[Emphix]

The peace and reps is fine, the rest are disappointing.

Dictating charter changes and another alliance's raiding policy?? that's UINE's own business. Crappy emperor or not.

I guess the temptation of power is too hard to resist. Poor show.. and I don't know who's worse, R&R for pushing the crappy terms, or the rest of UINE government that lightly and easily accept infringing terms like this.

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307504147' post='2726582']5. From the date of this agreement forward, UINE will not be allowed to interfere with or attack the R&R alliance or any alliance that R&R is treatied with, unless it is in self-defense from an act of aggression launched against UINE by R&R or her allies. Any form of aggression from UINE towards R&R or her allies may be considered an act of war.[/quote]
Aside from the redundant last sentence, which has already been pointed out, this term appears to forever prevent UINE from defending her allies against wars initiated by R&R or her allies.

[CptGodzilla]

Good one RnR. Play all nicey nice moral alliance for years. Get into the biggest bloc in the game. Then once your position is secured, do whatever the $%&@ you want

I'm glad i'm allied to you guys. =D

[Jessebelle]

UINE got themselves into this mess. Unfair reps? I think not. A [i]little[/i] harsh, perhaps. But certainly not to call R&R the 'most turrible alliance ever'. C'mon now, a couple of days ago we held R&R in such high grace. What happened to make them fall so far, so fast?

Don't tell me at least HALF of you wouldn't do the same in Ego's shoes?

[Cataduanes]

[quote]1. The immediate expulsion of keve69 from government, a declaration on the OWF with the new government and a statement he is no longer in charge of UINE. Keve may return to government after the remaining terms are completed, Keve69 (or his altenative name should he ever decide to reroll) is no longer allowed to be the sole leader of UINE.

4. UINE will revise their charter in which the absolute power of the emperor (or any other form of leader(s)) will permanently be kept in Check by direct GA involvement (for example term-based elected emperors).

It's our wish that with this kickstart UINE can start rebuilding towards a better future, where situations like this can be avoided.[/quote]

Very disappointing, interference in an alliances internal affairs is reprehensible. Kickstarting UINE should be down to UINE to achieve, as should be the decision of who should be Emperor and what form of govt should be in place. UINE should never accepted those clauses that blatantly interfere in their internal mechanisms...This makes me very sad R&R

[xoindotnler]

I go to sleep for a few hours and this happens.

I hope this is a joke or something.

[Heft]

[quote name='Jessebelle' timestamp='1307531380' post='2726875']
UINE got themselves into this mess. Unfair reps? I think not. A [i]little[/i] harsh, perhaps. But certainly not to call R&R the 'most turrible alliance ever'. C'mon now, a couple of days ago we held R&R in such high grace. What happened to make them fall so far, so fast?

Don't tell me at least HALF of you wouldn't do the same in Ego's shoes?
[/quote]
[img]http://flier.us/cfw/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Straw-Man.jpg[/img]

What a puzzling response.

[Mastermind]

Eh. I don't see what the big deal is. If R&R wants UINE to make a change to their charter, UINE can just pull the "smart ass" move and simply add another punctuation. Its "changing" the charter, no? On a more serious note, the terms aren't overly horrible. UINE expressed wanting to be able to do things for themselves, Keve prevented this, and R&R is providing a "safe haven" where UINE doesn't have to deal with Keve as its sole leader. Hell, nobody says they have to convert to democracy. They can choose oligarchy or monarchy if they want.