R&R-UINE Announcement

[Heft]

[quote name='Mastermind' timestamp='1307532782' post='2726884']
Eh. I don't see what the big deal is. If R&R wants UINE to make a change to their charter, UINE can just pull the "smart ass" move and simply add another punctuation. Its "changing" the charter, no? On a more serious note, the terms aren't overly horrible. UINE expressed wanting to be able to do things for themselves, Keve prevented this, and R&R is providing a "safe haven" where UINE doesn't have to deal with Keve as its sole leader. Hell, nobody says they have to convert to democracy. They can choose oligarchy or monarchy if they want.
[/quote]
Actually, "4. UINE will revise their charter in which the absolute power of the emperor (or any other form of leader(s)) will permanently be kept in Check by direct GA involvement (for example term-based elected emperors)."

So they do have to do something which directly involves the GA which is, general assembly? Is that the membership? I suppose it is vague enough that the GA could just be granted a recall power of some sort, or something like that, since term-based elected emperors is kind of dumb.

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1307533469' post='2726888']
Actually, "4. UINE will revise their charter in which the absolute power of the emperor (or any other form of leader(s)) will permanently be kept in Check by direct GA involvement (for example term-based elected emperors)."

So they do have to do something which directly involves the GA which is, general assembly? Is that the membership? I suppose it is vague enough that the GA could just be granted a recall power of some sort, or something like that, since term-based elected emperors is kind of dumb.
[/quote]General Assembly of The R&R duh.

[SirWilliam]

It's one thing to assess reparations and levy punitive measures against Keve; it's another thing altogether to dictate to UINE how they are to internally operate. Congrats on peace to both parties, but poor showing on RnR's behalf with regards to certain peace terms.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1307528188' post='2726852']
Then why were things that you had already done put into your terms?
[/quote]

Perhaps both parties were hoping that the threat of R&R rolling UINE again would be enough to make sure Keve stays away from gov. They are plagued by inactivity after all, the situation would be ripe for Keve to exploit if he wanted to sneak back onto his throne.

I don't know really, I'm just speculating and that's the only thing I could come up with.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Ghuxalia]

Lame! What fun is a crazy leader without an alliance to lead?

[D34th]

When Polaris tried to enforce \m/ to properly use their own charter nearly everyone said that we were trying to be become World Police, now UINE fails to pay some millions in reparations and as result it have to face R&R dictating their internal affairs and changing their charter, so how we should call R&R?

This surrender terms are ridiculous, they just shows that R&R is astonished with their current power and position in cyberverse and as result of it imposed exaggerated and unnecessary surrender terms, and I'm even more disappointed in see that UINE accepted this terms and that they don't think that's a big deal, what a shame.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307529219' post='2726861']
You also didn't like the polar treaty cancellation for the duration of terms, as you can see it's no longer in there.[/quote]

Quality, so you were pushing for the cancellation of their treaties too?

[Vladimir Nikanor]

[quote]5. From the date of this agreement forward, UINE will not be allowed to interfere with or attack the R&R alliance or any alliance that R&R is treatied with, unless it is in self-defense from an act of aggression launched against UINE by R&R or her allies. Any form of aggression from UINE towards R&R or her allies may be considered an act of war.[/quote]
Wouldn't life have gone on the same without number 5? It seems redundant. It almost seems as if R&R would have been okay with UINE attacking them and not considering it an act of war had this not been specifically written out. Just my two cents.

Either way, Peace is good. Keve out of Government is great. Essentially writing another alliance's charter and coming up with so many intrusions is rather imperialistic. What does INT and LSF have to say about this?

[Ghuxalia]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307504147' post='2726582']
5. From the date of this agreement forward, UINE will not be allowed to interfere with or attack the R&R alliance or any alliance that R&R is treatied with, unless it is in self-defense from an act of aggression launched against UINE by R&R or her allies. Any form of aggression from UINE towards R&R or her allies may be considered an act of war.
[/quote]
So, pretty much "Don't declare war on us or our allies, or else we'll consider it an act of war." That's definitely a necessary term to include.

[Augustus Autumn]

In regards to term five, you could have simply demanded UINE swear fealty to your alliance and be done with it. It worked for Ivan in a sense, after all.

[Divi Filius]

Congratulations on the victory R&R

I am a bit disapointed about the terms though, I agree with the other people who have stated that the internal affairs of another alliance should never become part of a peace treaty.

Then again, knowing R&R, they are not the powerhungry dictators some of you here make them out to be. I'm pretty sure their intentions in all of this were to genuinely to help UINE (and to prevent this from happening again).

[MildlyInsane]

Personally, I don't really like these terms, but at the end of the day, UINE could have come back and said no. Instead, they agreed.

Oh well... It is done.

[Baltus]

I'm already their Viceroy, and I was not conferred.

Article 5 is also redundant, you would be at war anyways.

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Baltus' timestamp='1307540293' post='2726931']Article 5 is also redundant, you would be at war anyways.
[/quote]
It seems to me that the specified consequences for breaching Article 5 are redundant, not the term itself. UINE has still agreed never to declare war on R&R or its allies.

[Buzz Lightyear]

So basically, R&R runs UINE now

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1307534959' post='2726901']
When Polaris tried to enforce \m/ to properly use their own charter nearly everyone said that we were trying to be become World Police, now UINE fails to pay some millions in reparations and as result it have to face R&R dictating their internal affairs and changing their charter, so how we should call R&R?

[/quote] I cant stand NpO or its members, but i gotta agree with this one.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Buzz Lightyear

[char aznable]

nice show of class on both R&R and UINE. good luck on peace

[Diabloz]

This is disgrace UINE...

Do you really think you will ever have allies now? i am still unsure how UINE accepted these terms..pathetic

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Kochers' timestamp='1307506934' post='2726653']
So sovereignty is relative to someone else's intentions?

Seriously though, I thought it was pretty much universally accepted that violating another alliances sovereignty post-Karma was a no-no, irregardless of the intention behind it. Even if the change turns out to be positive, it was still achieved the wrong way.
[/quote]

Kochers, a declaration of war on an alliance is a violation of that's alliance sovereignty. Surrender terms are a concession of sovereignty. So are treaties.

[supercoolyellow]

A few shout outs. First to MajorLu. You had leadership thrusted upon you in the biggest baptism by fire moment I have ever seen and you got the alliance through this.

Also to Polar, there original terms were even worse and you all were able to help UINE get better terms.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1307522749' post='2726833']
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> well, we've got to do this in as legal a way as possible
Snip
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> so could we please have time to do the job properly
Snip
[00:26] <+The_Archduke> and make sure that if we do get rid of Keve, he's gone for good

Snip

[00:41] <+The_Archduke> I'll go to the forums to announce that 'the Emperor has been found incapable (at least temporarily) of governing in accordance with international law and is facing impeachment under internal proceedings'

Really?

This was about 5 minutes after the DoW in #UINE and later by the MoFA of UINE.

This must be some strange use of the words, "defending him to the hilt," that I was not previously aware of!

Thanks for helping me get my "facts," in order.
[/quote]

Congratulations, you have now discovered that sometimes people change their minds. Think you might get a Nobel for it?

[quote name='Diabloz' timestamp='1307543941' post='2726954']
This is disgrace UINE...

Do you really think you will ever have allies now? i am still unsure how UINE accepted these terms..pathetic
[/quote]

Could be worse. You were just in Gotham. You should know.

[quote name='Lord Velox' timestamp='1307509786' post='2726706']
No point of having an Alliance with other Alliances calling the shots.
[/quote]

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97693"]I agree[/url]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1307527556' post='2726848']
The "expulsion of Keve from government" clause would have caused some movement in chefjoe's trousers as it is straight out of his noCB playbook. Perhaps he left it lying about?
[/quote]

I was just hoping this would turn into a Val/STA thread

Edited June 8, 2011 by supercoolyellow

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307504147' post='2726582']
5. From the date of this agreement forward, UINE will not be allowed to interfere with or attack the R&R alliance or any alliance that R&R is treatied with, unless it is in self-defense from an act of aggression launched against UINE by R&R or her allies. Any form of aggression from UINE towards R&R or her allies may be considered an act of war.
[/quote]

What? Are you two alliances serious?

I don't know if I should laugh or complain.

LOL - news flash - aggression IS an act of war - so what changes just because that's mentioned. Talk about a redundant clause!

As far as complaining, can one REALLY - in a peace agreement - say that UINE (or any other alliance) has to, forever more into all of antiquity, NOT attack another AND also keep up on who their allies are in order NOT to attack them too? Excuse me, going to be VERY hard to have any sort of independent foreign policy when one has to forever keep in line with an entirely different alliance. And what other alliance (assuming it's remembered) is going to want to sign with an alliance under a condition like that. Is R&R going to approve all the treaties now?

Just to make a point, lets say they attack an ally of R&R 3 years (or even 6 months) from now, because - I don't know - a "CB" at least as good as what's been around lately. In fact, lets say an ally or R&R didn't pay all the reps, just to make it interesting. (but it could be ANY reason)

Is R&R seriously going to yell and scream about *this* agreement being violated and really expect anyone to care?

Edited June 8, 2011 by White Chocolate

[Ogaden]

"Regime change" makes sense if the reason you are going to war in the first place is the "Regime".

But of course this is Planet Bob, nuking the crap out of people and extortion is honorable but trying to get people to change is genocide.

R&R I know you guys are trying to do the right thing here and are actually trying to help the ordinary members of UINE, but perception is everything on this planet.

Edited June 8, 2011 by James Dahl

[GulagArchipelago]

So UINE....ready to be R&R's future tech farm?

Seriously tho, I expect Keve to come back after seeing these terms and purge the heck outta you guys.

[Buzz Lightyear]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1307549789' post='2727032']
"Regime change" makes sense if the reason you are going to war in the first place is the "Regime".

But of course this is Planet Bob, nuking the crap out of people and extortion is honorable but trying to get people to change is genocide.

R&R I know you guys are trying to do the right thing here and are actually trying to help the ordinary members of UINE, but perception is everything on this planet.
[/quote]
theyve done a little more than just try to get keve out of power

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1307505322' post='2726618']
I was wondering how long it would take for this to start.
[/quote]
Oh, so you also realized immediately how bad these terms were.

[quote name='Chaoshawk' timestamp='1307505823' post='2726628']
Oh cool, R&R installs democracy in UINE. I don't think UINE members wouldn't mind the more democratic changes these terms force them to do after seeing keve69's inactivity and/or incompetence rather than couping him afterward. A good opportunity for them I believe.
[/quote]
If UINE members want to be in a democracy, then there are lots they can join. They joined an empire, though, and there's no lock on the door.

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1307506761' post='2726648']
The irony of it all. The killing of thousands, perhaps even millions of people -- this is acceptable to the critics in the thread -- but to demand that an alliance modify its behavior -- [i]THAT[/i] is an intolerable violation of sovereignty! Oh, the horror of dethroning a failed emperor! Kill the people, burn the cities, but spare the leaders!
[/quote]
The war was not unjustified, it was the natural result of UINE's failure to pay reps agreed to several months ago, and that's what happens. Forcing an alliance to change its charter and barring specific individuals, however, has never been natural or acceptable.

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1307511891' post='2726749']
lol @ the moralists in this here thread.
[/quote]
Yeah all these dumb moralists from MK, Athens, Olympus, Valhalla, NSO, Poison Clan, and GOONS are just maniacs out for cheap shots against ~The Man~. Protip, SpacingOutMan: read thread, then post.

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1307527556' post='2726848']
The "expulsion of Keve from government" clause would have caused some movement in chefjoe's trousers as it is straight out of his noCB playbook. Perhaps he left it lying about?

Mandating a Charter change with regards to the form and function of UINE's government is a disgrace.
[/quote]
No kidding, Polaris attempts to impose raid changes on \m/, the world mobilizes to stop the World Police threat. R&R imposes raid changes, Dos Equis ticker-tape parade.

[quote name='askani the rotund' timestamp='1307528256' post='2726853']
Beats me.
[/quote]
Let's think this one through: So. they. can. attack. you. again.

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307508609' post='2726684']
I'm not one to be nice, but are you out of your !@#$@#$ mind? Those terms are completely ridiculous and for $18 million?
Regardless of what MK has done (because that isn't at all germane to my argument) it's wrong to bully a smaller alliance, but I can even overlook that. What I won't overlook is the fact that R&R is trying to dictate the internal workings of another alliance, and for !@#$%^&* reasons at that.

Honestly have the balls to tell your ally they're wrong.[/quote]
Where was Polaris? Well, considering R&R attempted to also force UINE to cancel their treaty with NpO, I guess Polaris wasn't part of the picture.
As for the rest, you're entirely correct. MK's actions don't have anything to do with R&R's; if something is wrong it's wrong. Say what you will about MK, but R&R is the alliance standing here dictating charter change, regime change, and foreign policy.

-------

The personalities involved might make it easier or more difficult to accept any action, but they are irrelevant to that action. It is as wrong to force a terrible leader out of an alliance forever as it is to force an effective or popular leader out. It might be fun to chuckle at Keve's situation, but the comeuppance or humorous nature doesn't make R&R's "reform" at the point of a gun good. It is not R&R's job or right (with the backing of two blocs) to enforce [i]their idea[/i] of how alliances should be run, whom by, or by which government system on any group of nations except their own. Without regard to motive, R&R's actions here are nothing more than a demonstration to the world of what they will do from their position when dealing with a disadvantaged opponent: Whatever they want. Without regard to Keve's ability or popularity, R&R's actions are no more right or acceptable than VE's refusal to allow Ordo Verde to choose its own government; Polaris' attempts to enforce \m/'s charter, Karma's permanent removal of Caffine from Echelon gov; or NPO's placement of a viceroy in GATO. Judgment of actions is not a popularity contest, nor can an honest answer be found by consulting the treaty web; each case must be considered based upon its own facts.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[REGHAR73]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1307508721' post='2726688']
Are people seriously complaining that RnR is forbidding Keve from government? That's like punishing someone by forbidding them to eat !@#$ or molest goats. UINE should be thanking them.
[/quote]
Did you read the posts before or are you just mindlessly commenting?