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R&R-UINE Announcement


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[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1307681524' post='2728443']
Let's all be honest here. UINE wasn't beaten into accepting these terms. The war had barely started and they practically tripped over themselves while rushing to find a way out. This was not a war-weary group of guys who agreed simply to make the onslaught stop. If this war had been allowed to go on for a couple of weeks, I can almost guarantee that the terms of surrender would have been much different. The fact that UINE rolled over before it even sustained a real beating necessitated these harsh terms of surrender.

And furthermore, alliances aren't owed an existence. "Sovereignty" is not some handout. It is earned by adherence to principle. People who are willing to sell out their comrades before a cycle of war even ends have no right to it. I've been to ZI. I wouldn't trade that experience away for a few levels of preserved infra.

Sovereignty is prize earned through sacrifice.

-Craig
[/quote]

Let's all be honest here. UINE knew it was going to get stomped. UINE was still rebuilding and recovering from fighting almost 2 months against far greater odds. That war was a short 3 months previous. UINE negotiated where they thought best and left the rest since UINE was already going to do those items regardless of R&R. If this war had been allowed to go one for a couple of weeks, I can almost guarantee the terms would not matter. UINE would have become a shell of its former self as nations that were finally seeing the end of a rebuilding time, would not have to go back and attempt to rebuild once more. The fact that UINE took these terms shows a determination to recover and rebuild instead of fight a useless war based one the wants of another alliance.

And furthermore, alliances aren't owed war. "War" is not some handout. It is fought for valid reasons and should end in a reasonable manner. Alliances willing to sell out their supposed values to demand harsh terms such as these over $18 million should be curbstomped. I've been close to ZI. I would never force another alliance to sign a treaty such as this one even if they had attacked my alliance first, let alone over a pathetic sum like $18 million.

Respect is earned by one's actions and R&R just sacrificed much of theirs over something entirely idiotic.

--Dochartaigh

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[quote name='MinuteVariance' timestamp='1307352976' post='2725286']
Up front I'd like to apologise to my friends in UINE for what I am about to say by way of an apology to RnR and the AiD guys who are the real injured party here.
[/quote]

Yes, that's true to an extent, and this incident may even have made our alliance more active again, but still, if there's ever a future incident of this sort, could the guilty party have negotiations before the war, a cease-fire a bit sooner when they indicate they are willing to rectify matters, and sovereignty/independence-infringing terms expiring after a year or some other fixed amount of time? Please don't think I'm being ungrateful to RnR for only asking us what we were prepared to do, which was very kind of them. However, I think a few small improvements to this way of working could still be made. But at least we're not wasting each other's time and money dragging out a nearly pointless war over 21 million any longer, for which I would like to thank all people who showed some restraint.

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[quote name='The Archduke' timestamp='1307715599' post='2728605']
Yes, that's true to an extent, and this incident may even have made our alliance more active again, but still, if there's ever a future incident of this sort, could the guilty party have negotiations before the war, a cease-fire a bit sooner when they indicate they are willing to rectify matters, and sovereignty/independence-infringing terms expiring after a year or some other fixed amount of time? Please don't think I'm being ungrateful to RnR for only asking us what we were prepared to do, which was very kind of them. However, I think a few small improvements to this way of working could still be made. But at least we're not wasting each other's time and money dragging out a nearly pointless war over 21 million any longer, for which I would like to thank all people who showed some restraint.
[/quote]


Your willingness to rectify the situation is 6 months past due.
When the entire OWF agrees that you are in the wrong and well-deserving of a war, you should probably take a hint and quit while you're behind on that one.

I do relish with every post that you seem to count this as some sort of phyric victory for UINE.

The amateur display of showmanship in pretending that after couping your own government : [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102418&st=0"]http://forums.cybern...pic=102418&st=0[/url]
merely hours after war was declared as well as the general failure to pay the debt owed to AiD when your allies had bargained on your behalf for more time and multiple extentions in addition to the impeccable patience of R&R severely puts your claim that you are capable of doing anything in serious doubt.

After agreeing to the terms provided bilatteraly to end the conflict within only a couple days when it well could have gone for far, far longer, that they are all of a sudden unnacceptable, but apparently not enough to break them.

Then comes the claim that the war wasn't justified at all, that you were forced to accept the terms.

I truly hope your alliance become "more active," and, well, generally better than before (though I'd say this would be the proverbial rock bottom,)
but to insinuate that R&R lacked restraint at any point in this venture is quite comical.

Edited by IYIyTh
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[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307713052' post='2728587']
Alliances willing to sell out their supposed values to demand harsh terms such as these over $18 million should be curbstomped.

...

Respect is earned by one's actions and R&R just sacrificed much of theirs over something entirely idiotic.

--Dochartaigh
[/quote]

R&R has earned my respect through years of honorable behavior, so I can say with certainty that they won't ever stand alone. Outside of C&G, you'd be hard-pressed to find a more decent and dependable group of guys. The road to a curbstomping of R&R passes straight through my nation.

And for the record, I can't think of a single war that wasn't started and/or ended for idiotic reasons. Idiocy is a prerequisite for all conflict on Bob, so the presence of it in any dispute is hardly worth mentioning.

-Craig

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If you were going to reform anyways, I don't see why R&R had to make them terms. Also, I keep hearing that you couldn't have done anything due to Keve. Thought it is partially his fault, it is equally yours. You guys went inactive. You guys left him in charge. He's just one guy, and of course he has other things to do. Then when another alliance declares war due to his (lack of) action, you coup him, and take over. If you couldn't do anything without his approval, then did he approve the coup? The coup was necessary, he was inactive, but don't tell me that you couldn't do anything before without his approval, because you just did.

UINE learn from this, and move on. R&R you guys are cool, but I just didn't like some of the terms. You could've just left them out.

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I'm saddened to see terms like these that are moving us back to old standards which, in the end, benefit no one (in before my AA is used as a counterargument). What purpose do these terms (besides the understandable #2) serve other than satisfying one's ego by exercising one's dominion over a defeated enemy?

-Bama

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[quote name='Baltus' timestamp='1307736809' post='2728766']
If you were going to reform anyways, I don't see why R&R had to make them terms. Also, I keep hearing that you couldn't have done anything due to Keve. Thought it is partially his fault, it is equally yours. You guys went inactive. You guys left him in charge. He's just one guy, and of course he has other things to do. Then when another alliance declares war due to his (lack of) action, you coup him, and take over. If you couldn't do anything without his approval, then did he approve the coup? The coup was necessary, he was inactive, but don't tell me that you couldn't do anything before without his approval, because you just did.

UINE learn from this, and move on. R&R you guys are cool, but I just didn't like some of the terms. You could've just left them out.
[/quote]
R&R made these terms to make sure that these reform would actually get done.

There have been many failed coup attempts against keve before. Keve has done many good things in the past. I do not doubt that. With keve we've seen our alliance go from hell and back along with reaching a 2mil milestone and record membership numbers. He was a great leader, he just made some fatal mistakes and these mistakes were too much in the end. Every leader has their end and I feel that this was his timing.

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307713052' post='2728587']
Let's all be honest here. UINE knew it was going to get stomped. UINE was still rebuilding and recovering from fighting almost 2 months against far greater odds. That war was a short 3 months previous. UINE negotiated where they thought best and left the rest since UINE was already going to do those items regardless of R&R. If this war had been allowed to go one for a couple of weeks, I can almost guarantee the terms would not matter. UINE would have become a shell of its former self as nations that were finally seeing the end of a rebuilding time, would not have to go back and attempt to rebuild once more. The fact that UINE took these terms shows a determination to recover and rebuild instead of fight a useless war based one the wants of another alliance.

And furthermore, alliances aren't owed war. "War" is not some handout. It is fought for valid reasons and should end in a reasonable manner. Alliances willing to sell out their supposed values to demand harsh terms such as these over $18 million should be curbstomped. I've been close to ZI. I would never force another alliance to sign a treaty such as this one even if they had attacked my alliance first, let alone over a pathetic sum like $18 million.

Respect is earned by one's actions and R&R just sacrificed much of theirs over something entirely idiotic.

--Dochartaigh
[/quote]


And let me guess. YOU will be the one giving us this Curb stomp? Please. We fought a war. And we settled to Terms that they AGREED too. And all I see is everyone !@#$%*ing about this. Especially you. If you and everyone else that's been posting in this Alliance Announcement are fed up then do something about it. Posting on a Thread wont help the cause one bit.

As for the Terms. Some are needed and some arn't. I wont call our actions "Idiotic". We in no way shape or form sold them out one single bit.

As I said before. We didn't force them sign this Treaty. In fact hell this whole thing could have been avoided. But it's people like you that are making this whole thing more complicated.

But like I also previously stated. Don't just sit around and cry like babies. Just act.

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[quote name='Bacchanalian' timestamp='1307779187' post='2729100']
[b]And all I see is everyone !@#$%*ing about this. Especially you. If you and everyone else that's been posting in this Alliance Announcement are fed up then do something about it. Posting on a Thread wont help the cause one bit.[/b]

As for the Terms. Some are needed and some arn't. I wont call our actions "Idiotic". We in no way shape or form sold them out one single bit.

As I said before. We didn't force them sign this Treaty. In fact hell this whole thing could have been avoided. But it's people like you that are making this whole thing more complicated.

But like I also previously stated. Don't just sit around and cry like babies. Just act.
[/quote]
You seem to be missing the point that this is a public area, did you really think the OWF is somewhere your alliance can post without differing opinions coming out to play? are you that unaware of how these forums work? everyone is allowed to venture an opinion on this thread and if you don't like what you see then perhaps you should go read something in the watercooler :ehm:

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1307717900' post='2728620']
Your willingness to rectify the situation is 6 months past due.
When the entire OWF agrees that you are in the wrong and well-deserving of a war, you should probably take a hint and quit while you're behind on that one.

...

After agreeing to the terms provided bilatteraly to end the conflict within only a couple days when it well could have gone for far, far longer, that they are all of a sudden unnacceptable, but apparently not enough to break them.

Then comes the claim that the war wasn't justified at all, that you were forced to accept the terms.
[/quote]

The 6 months delay was approved by all parties involved for various good reasons, and we were a bit busy with rebuilding (even though we caused two of our enemies to disband/peace out, we still bled a lot). A bit too busy to be keeping an eye on what our Emperor was doing: decent chaps don't go around checking up on people who they're pretty sure are decent chaps (particularly when they're busy doing other things). And anyway, the money has been repaid now.

To clarify what I've said before, I'm sure to an extent the war was justified, but I'm also sure that to another extent the war wasn't. As I've agreed, in some ways the treaty was very sensible and R&R showed excellent restraint, but in other ways this wasn't the case. It depends on contentious standards. I think Azaghul summed it up quite sensibly (http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102471&st=300&p=2728274&#entry2728274).

'Do something about it' - yes, we'll keep on discussing it if need be. Restrained discussions can be less damaging to all parties involved.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1307789951' post='2729128']
Oh look, 'Do something about it :smug:' is making a return. I thought R&R was above that, to be honest.
[/quote]

I can't believe you just noticed it now. -_-

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I do understand the reasoning behind the government restrictions in the terms, but they're still a bad idea. A much better way to go about handling things is to have communications requirements in the terms.

The basic problem from R&R's point of view is that UINE dropped the ball severely in its internal communications, which led to a failure to communicate effectively with R&R to have the reps handled in a timely fashion. It would be much better to have terms that require UINE officers to maintain contact with R&R to prevent a repetition of this situation.

In other words, instead of restricting who you have to deal with, restrict how they are allowed to act. That always works out better.

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[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1307789951' post='2729128']
Oh look, 'Do something about it :smug:' is making a return. I thought R&R was above that, to be honest.
[/quote]

Lol, and since when has the opinion of 1 member out of 280 dictated alliance foreign policy? You're looking intensely for some troll bait aren't you?

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[quote name='Bacchanalian' timestamp='1307779187' post='2729100']
And let me guess. YOU will be the one giving us this Curb stomp? Please. We fought a war. And we settled to Terms that they AGREED too. And all I see is everyone !@#$%*ing about this. Especially you. If you and everyone else that's been posting in this Alliance Announcement are fed up then do something about it. Posting on a Thread wont help the cause one bit.

As for the Terms. Some are needed and some arn't. I wont call our actions "Idiotic". We in no way shape or form sold them out one single bit.

As I said before. We didn't force them sign this Treaty. In fact hell this whole thing could have been avoided. But it's people like you that are making this whole thing more complicated.

But like I also previously stated. Don't just sit around and cry like babies. Just act.
[/quote]
This is not the R&R that people talk about so positively.

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