Impero's Game: The Truth About the Alleged Spying and Evidence of Deception

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295687489' post='2591627']I stumbled upon an apparently inactive top-secret NpO IRC channel today, and had a short-lived conversation with Dajobo before leaving and being locked out.
[/quote]
Wait, you're complaining that a government leader of an alliance that you are at war with wsa suspicious of your motives when you joined one of his alliance's private channels?

You should go talk to Cheeky sometime, you two look like a good fit.

[zoskia]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295687489' post='2591627']
I would definitely describe Dajobo as 'sincere', however I would also describe him as 'suspicious' and 'secretive' after talking to him. I stumbled upon an apparently inactive top-secret NpO IRC channel today, and had a short-lived conversation with Dajobo before leaving and being locked out.

Tedd.
[/quote]

Next time bring Impero Romano...
He likes sending screenshots to Polaris without any reason...

Though, on the other hand, he's not to talkative with us when he has to explain why he sent those screenshots.

[Dajobo]

[2011-01-22 17:49:15] [INFO] Query view for ``NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe'' opened.
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe <Teddyyo@coldfront-removed> ``...''
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: member of #nso, #removed, and #AcTi
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: attached to frozen.coldfront.net ``Welcome to Coldfront!''
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: idle for 3 seconds (on since Saturday, 22 January 2011 5:44:06 PM)
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] --- End of WHOIS information for NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe.

Damn with an honest upfront Nick like that why would I be suspicious?

Also we were so nasty about it! Seriously why would you even want to highlight to the world what a fool you are?

[2011-01-22 17:51:40] <Llanowar_Elf[NpO]> Can you please leave our channel, you do not belong here.
[2011-01-22 17:51:46] <NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe> but I'm a new polar order non-descript member
[2011-01-22 17:51:51] <QuantumLeap[NpO]> You are not
[2011-01-22 17:52:06] <NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe> well, I'm sorry
[2011-01-22 17:52:06] <QuantumLeap[NpO]> but character always shows
[2011-01-22 17:52:11] =-= NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe is now known as Teddyyo

[SyndicatedINC]

[quote name='Taget' timestamp='1295657810' post='2589931']Things would be so much easier if alliances acted in a more straight forward manner. Just say you're attacking because you dislike the alliance you are attacking or feel that their interests and yours don't match and you want to resolve this on the battlefield. So much better for avoiding farces such as this.[/quote]

This would be a refreshing change, however it makes for poor propaganda to garner up a curbstomp as compared to "we were wronged come friends help us avenge ourselves". If alliances started wars based upon the truth, they might actually have to risk losing (can't have that now can we).


[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1295658149' post='2589954']
I support your goals here, in that right should be "right" enough on its own, without needing to be backed up by might.

Good luck.
[/quote]

I know that I have said it before, but I like you.


[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1295658222' post='2589962']Karma was a convenient little buzzword that seemed appropriate and was a convenient banner to rally round, that's all it ever was. So can we please drop this terrible rhetoric that dates back almost two years ago? I feel like this is in every other post I read when it has something to do with an alliance that fought with the Karma coalition doing ~bad things~

Give it a rest and find a new party line. This one is as old, tired and ineffective as UPN is.[/quote]

No, the community at large won't be dropping it. Regardless of actual intent, the term was used as a rallying cry to gather sufficient forces for the cause based upon ideals. Whether those ideals were real or not for you, they were for some, and thus those who served under the banner will forever be judged by those values which the term implies and compared to the values and behaviors of those whom the term was applied against. On planet Bob as anyone knows, one may use any banner or rally cry they wish, however if they pay only lip service and diverge from it, or down the line fall short of it, they will be judged for and called out on it. It will not be dropped, it will not be forgotten, and it will never be put to rest so long as the initiator remains out of line with what they proclaimed to be.

If there were members of Karma, not willing to or intending to live up to the ideals of Karma that draw the true believers, then when they chose to use the moralistic banner, they should have been prepared to hear the comparison again and again the rest of their lives.

[auto98]

I wish to formally apologise for viewing that information, and to formally inform the people who need informing that I have viewed such information.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]I stumbled upon an apparently inactive top-secret NpO IRC channel today, and had a short-lived conversation with Dajobo before leaving and being locked out.[/quote]
Don't do this >_>

[Alterego]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295704471' post='2591816']
Don't do this >_>
[/quote]
He a Polar spy too?

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295687489' post='2591627']
I would definitely describe Dajobo as 'sincere', however I would also describe him as 'suspicious' and 'secretive' after talking to him. I stumbled upon an apparently inactive top-secret NpO IRC channel today, and had a short-lived conversation with Dajobo before leaving and being locked out.

Tedd.
[/quote]

I seem to remember a certian somebody throwing all sorts of a fit on these forums about AcTi and not being respected, and then you have the nerve to go around acting like your intelligent, cunning, and worth listening to.

Your not, so you might as well stop it before you gather even more public scorn.

Also, lol @ VE spying. Classy as always.

Edited January 22, 2011 by memoryproblems

[hankidan]

Hey, VE, I just looked at your warchest info... Its retarded low. you need higher ones... Might be a good thing to get before you come up with another master plan to DoW someone and have it blow up in your face... Just saying...

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1295701758' post='2591781']
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] [INFO] Query view for ``NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe'' opened.
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe <Teddyyo@coldfront-removed> ``...''
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: member of #nso, #removed, and #AcTi
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: attached to frozen.coldfront.net ``Welcome to Coldfront!''
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: idle for 3 seconds (on since Saturday, 22 January 2011 5:44:06 PM)
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] --- End of WHOIS information for NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe.

Damn with an honest upfront Nick like that why would I be suspicious?

Also we were so nasty about it! Seriously why would you even want to highlight to the world what a fool you are?

[2011-01-22 17:51:40] <Llanowar_Elf[NpO]> Can you please leave our channel, you do not belong here.
[2011-01-22 17:51:46] <NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe> but I'm a new polar order non-descript member
[2011-01-22 17:51:51] <QuantumLeap[NpO]> You are not
[2011-01-22 17:52:06] <NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe> well, I'm sorry
[2011-01-22 17:52:06] <QuantumLeap[NpO]> but character always shows
[2011-01-22 17:52:11] =-= NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe is now known as Teddyyo
[/quote]

With a name like NewPolarOrderNon-descriptMembe how did you ever know?

[gantanX]

i must hit peace mode after reading this whole thread, VE has a CB on me..

you're truly NPO wannabe VE

[iamthey]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295658151' post='2589955']
So you thought It'd be a good idea to publicly post information we're already rolling Polar for taking? Most people dumping spied info are usually smart enough to try and hide their identities.
[/quote]

At the point where Impero himself turned over the info to be trafficked to polar, I think this point becomes moot.

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1295658222' post='2589962']
Karma was a convenient little buzzword that seemed appropriate and was a convenient banner to rally round, that's all it ever was. So can we please drop this terrible rhetoric that dates back almost two years ago? I feel like this is in every other post I read when it has something to do with an alliance that fought with the Karma coalition doing ~bad things~

Give it a rest and find a new party line. This one is as old, tired and ineffective as UPN is.
[/quote]

I fully agree with you, and would be more than happy to accept your prescribed action. However, as a condition those who presently dominate the game, should agree to relinquish hence forth whatever claim or right they have to the moral high ground, and the self-righteous manner they currently masquerade in. Opponents continue to call attention to the discrepancies in the rhetoric of karma and the actions of the present only because those leaders who planned the war, ideologically defended it, and set the terms of surrender; justified in their minds the war as one of idealism and justice. At the time they framed it as such, and they continue to portray it that way today.

Those of us who continue to remind the world of this by pointing to the hypocrisy, number not only in those victimized by the war, but also those such as myself who are really quite disgusted by what they see. So when everyone is willing to admit (like yourself) that Karma wasn't anything special or exceptional, but just another war in a long tradition of power politics and base tribal hatred, I'll be happy to move on and discuss the world under whatever new set of values it adopts.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295658430' post='2589981']
It's also worth noting that the fact that it was a set-up or not is not an important debate to the core of the CB. Just as police may set up a sting operation, the only thing that matters is whether the criminals take the bait or not. People keep trying to push the debate back to whether or not VE set up the information. Whether true or not does not alter the legitimacy of the CB. As much as people want to prove or disprove it, it's completely irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is that Dajobo directed Lennox at VE, and then happily accepted what he believed to be spied information. Whether the information was real, or whether Lennox was playing anyone, or whether VE gave to Lennox on purpose for a "sting" of some kind, are all completely irrelevant facts. The CB is that NpO condoned spying on VE. Which they did. That's it.
[/quote]

True to form. I'm sure you have not the slightest sense of the hubris it takes to make a statement like that, but if that is the truly a mentality VE can agree with than they really are the alliance the tinfoilhatters make them out to be. What we have here is not a sting, but a case of entrapment. An operation can only be considered a sting, if it involves inducing behavior that an agent would otherwise commit on their own. (Buying drugs from a drug dealer, making a deal to launder money with a corrupt banker ect) In so far as polaris hasn't sponsored spy operations outside the realm of the distant past, VE has done nothing more than bait an otherwise innocent party into incriminating themselves in a fictitious 'crime'.


[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1295664398' post='2590457']
I read the warchest info- does that mean VE is going to roll me?
[/quote]

They better roll us both, I read it too.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1295664398' post='2590457']
I read the warchest info- does that mean VE is going to roll me?
[/quote]
They dont need to. Right about now you should be incapacitated in a fit of giggles. They have already defeated you.

[D34th]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1295701758' post='2591781']
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] [INFO] Query view for ``NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe'' opened.
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe <Teddyyo@coldfront-removed> ``...''
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: member of #nso, #removed, and #AcTi
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: attached to frozen.coldfront.net ``Welcome to Coldfront!''
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] === NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe: idle for 3 seconds (on since Saturday, 22 January 2011 5:44:06 PM)
[2011-01-22 17:49:15] --- End of WHOIS information for NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe.

Damn with an honest upfront Nick like that why would I be suspicious?

Also we were so nasty about it! Seriously why would you even want to highlight to the world what a fool you are?

[2011-01-22 17:51:40] <Llanowar_Elf[NpO]> Can you please leave our channel, you do not belong here.
[2011-01-22 17:51:46] <NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe> but I'm a new polar order non-descript member
[2011-01-22 17:51:51] <QuantumLeap[NpO]> You are not
[2011-01-22 17:52:06] <NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe> well, I'm sorry
[2011-01-22 17:52:06] <QuantumLeap[NpO]> but character always shows
[2011-01-22 17:52:11] =-= NewPolarOrderNon-DescriptMembe is now known as Teddyyo
[/quote]

When I thought that Teddyyo/VE can't look more stupid they surprise me.

[Pondoland]

I've just got around to reading this (I like to keep abreast of current events as soon as they happen - ish)

All I have to say is: Naughty VE, naughty!

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1295709454' post='2591912']
So when everyone is willing to admit (like yourself) that Karma wasn't anything special or exceptional, but just another war in a long tradition of power politics and base tribal hatred, I'll be happy to move on and discuss the world under whatever new set of values it adopts.[/quote]

You will never get me to agree to that because it wasnt true. Karma was not a coalition, karma was and is a force of nature. Pacifica, for a time, ruled this planet with the mandate of heaven. But she could not resist the urge to abuse her power, and committed atrocity after atrocity, so the mandate was revoked. There may be plenty of big egos like you are replying to, who want to take credit for what happened, who were acting from the basest motives, I dont doubt that. But they were not responsible for our success - only for the failure to mop up properly afterwords - and their failure to learn the right lessons from their experiences, which many have put on display with comments here recently. .

It is a myth that heaven works only through those with pure hearts - in fact quite often the opposite is closer to the truth. The motives of the actors were never important, only that what had to be done, was done.

[TheEraser]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1295717348' post='2592078']
You will never get me to agree to that because it wasnt true. Karma was not a coalition, karma was and is a force of nature. Pacifica, for a time, ruled this planet with the mandate of heaven. But she could not resist the urge to abuse her power, and committed atrocity after atrocity, so the mandate was revoked. There may be plenty of big egos like you are replying to, who want to take credit for what happened, who were acting from the basest motives, I dont doubt that. But they were not responsible for our success - only for the failure to mop up properly afterwords - and their failure to learn the right lessons from their experiences, which many have put on display with comments here recently. .

It is a myth that heaven works only through those with pure hearts - in fact quite often the opposite is closer to the truth. The motives of the actors were never important, only that what had to be done, was done.
[/quote]
it very much was a coalition, i was in the coalition channels and had access to the coalition forums.

and all this VE backpeddeling is hillarious, their argument has gone from "Polaris spied!!!!" to "we have more NS, deal with it"

you're going to get your VE, and Polaris will be there dancing on your grave when it happens.

[thisperson]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1295656493' post='2589840']
[color="#0000FF"]Hello friends. Once again, I am Rebel Virginia. I'm sure you all know by now VE's story of Polaris' alleged spying, but what you may not know is the truth.

A few days ago, People's Champion Lennox, aka 00Lennox, returned to this world. He joined VE. Almost immediately one Mr. Impero approached him about possibly setting up a sting on Polar. Note that Impero's offer was made prior to Lennox's conversation with Dajobo. Impero sent to People's Champion Lennox, aka 00Lennox, private information from the most secure of VE's forums - information, contrary to the claims of VE, is not available to all members. In fact, many VE members were baffled at how People's Champion Lennox, aka 00Lennox, could have acquired such information. Now they'll know. Impero gave it to him.
[/color]

[IMG]http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq240/Rebel_Virginia/Screenshot2011-01-21at121743AM.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq240/Rebel_Virginia/Screenshot2011-01-21at121814AM.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq240/Rebel_Virginia/Screenshot2011-01-21at121844AM.png[/IMG]
[/quote]


@OP

Eh, I still don't see much difference with the ideas presented here and the ones in the previous "Impero lied!" thread. It seems like most everyone is talking about the same thing but completely avoiding the main point.

So you're saying that the screenshots occurred before Xiph asked Impero to confirm the spy?

Because all I'm seeing here is:

Previous Event #: Lennox told Imp he was spying. And had passed along information.

Previous Event #+1: Imp told Xiph and Co. (I don't know many names of political figures on Bob) and then proceeded to confirm it.

Thread Event #+2: Screens that just look like the confirmation orders relayed to Lennox. And someone out there, is lol'ing very hard at the mass confusion and circular arguments about CB/doctored screens.

[size="1"]Also, some of you need a simple mental time line at the very least. :| [/size]

I'm curious about the 4 minute member masking though, but I should say I wouldn't be surprised about it. Competent players who are doing things a second+ time around, tend to get the green light off the bat. Be they old, or starting fresh.

These are just my observations.

-thisperson.

Edited January 22, 2011 by thisperson

[Vladimir Stukov II]

Strange how Polaris is suddenly morally opposed to traps. For some reason I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. No one deserves this more.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Well now.

This is more than i expected. Impero

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1295717348' post='2592078']
karma was and is a force of nature
[/quote]

Actually, Karma has nothing to do with nature. It's an essence of life held by a religious belief.

But - at that time, it was very much a coalition. Not a tight-knit, everyone on the same side coalition - but one with a specific and unified agenda. A coalition.

[King Chill I]

I dont get what all this boo hoo is all about. It was obvious after the first 5 minutes that this was a sting op.

Why is everyone acting all surprised and shocked is beyond me.

[Varianz]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1295709710' post='2591916']
They dont need to. Right about now you should be incapacitated in a fit of giggles. They have already defeated you.
[/quote]
True, but we were pretty disappointed VE didn't come after us last update- I mean what we did was almost worse than the "crime" Polaris committed- after all, they were the unwitting recipients of warchest information, but they went to VE with the fact that VE had a spy. We just published the info all over the OWF. I'd say we were much more deserving of being rolled.

But then, it was never about the "spying". From the beginning it's been about rolling Polar, and that's it. VE, you're truly a sad excuse for an alliance.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1295717348' post='2592078']
You will never get me to agree to that because it wasnt true. Karma was not a coalition, karma was and is a force of nature. Pacifica, for a time, ruled this planet with the mandate of heaven. But she could not resist the urge to abuse her power, and committed atrocity after atrocity, so the mandate was revoked. There may be plenty of big egos like you are replying to, who want to take credit for what happened, who were acting from the basest motives, I dont doubt that. But they were not responsible for our success - only for the failure to mop up properly afterwords - and their failure to learn the right lessons from their experiences, which many have put on display with comments here recently. .

It is a myth that heaven works only through those with pure hearts - in fact quite often the opposite is closer to the truth. The motives of the actors were never important, only that what had to be done, was done.
[/quote]

Hegel aside even if 'karma' in itself is somehow separate from those who executed it; it is irrelevant as I am not condemning the game changing ideals the war embodied, in as much as I am condemning those who have failed to live up to them. As long as there are leaders who continue to climb atop their moral high horse, and in so far as the self-righteous continue to master the game, hypocrisy ought to be pointed out until they relinquish that claim entirely.

If Karma was a force of nature, then every war that proceeded it was also driven by the same historical force. When the initiative wiped out Aegis, it was an act of the will affirming itself. As was the case with the UWJ, WoTC, and ultimately Karma. Just as those preceding wars themselves possessed no fundamental moral significance, neither did karma. The only thing which distinguishes karma was that a historically weaker force finally amassed enough strength to overcome their rival. While this had the potential to bring about a world altering paradigm shift, as is evident now, that potential was squandered.

Edited January 22, 2011 by iamthey

[Rayvon]

[quote name='King Chill I' timestamp='1295720071' post='2592126']
I dont get what all this boo hoo is all about. It was obvious after the first 5 minutes that this was a sting op.

Why is everyone acting all surprised and shocked is beyond me.
[/quote]

The only shock and surprise is that Impero would actually go to such extreme lengths (it was already expected he could go to some length) -- and then still continue to act all righteous and innocent.