kingzog Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Given you know, that by the time you read, this will be page upteenth, I'd recommend if you want whatever issue you think exists resolves, you should contact someone on IRC privately. It's rather difficult to resolve these kinds of individual things in this thread. I have no interest in resolving my EZI status with the NPO. You want me? Come and get me. Simple as that. Think about what you just said, apply it to the last two years of CN, and get back to me. I stand corrected. You know what's better than the NPO's tears masked as righteous indignation?Nothing. I thank you for your help. Edited June 13, 2009 by kingzog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 The same GATO that is currently allied to the New Pacific Order, and the same GATO that'd probably enjoy it if you were to stop using their name as a rallying point. That's not the same GATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) The same GATO that is currently allied to the New Pacific Order, and the same GATO that'd probably enjoy it if you were to stop using their name as a rallying point. Some of 'us' may not be in GATO any longer but none of us have forgotten the discourtesy and lack of respect with which we were treated by your alliance in the GATO-1V war. The apology to GATO is far too little and far too late in my humble view.. Edited June 13, 2009 by Cataduanes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Destruction Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Sorry, obviously an NPO member is the expert on Karma ideology here. Please come back with a different argument. Karma isn't even clear on what Karma's ideology is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I would like for it to be known that, had I not worked to assemble surrender terms in the first place, that NPO would be in a state of indefinite war from a significant subset of the alliances attacking them. I'm well aware that these terms are harsh, as harsh as any that have ever been given. I wish I had the authority to negotiate all on my own, so that we could arrive at a set of terms that was acceptable to everyone. But I don't. I am but one leader of 18 alliances that are engaged with NPO, and the wishes of the many, not the one, rule the day. I have been a mouthpiece, and a negotiator, and but one leader of 18 sovereign alliances, all of whom have had their own demands, their own wishes, and their own ideas. For the NPO to pin the blame on me for this situation or these terms is the height of foolishness. I have negotiated DOWN from some of the original demands. Three weeks of additional war became two weeks, for instance. 50,000 minimum tech per month became 25,000, to allow for increased rebuilding aid. Do you all even have any idea of how hard it is to get so many different alliances to agree to ANYTHING? Do you imagine that I personally stipulated all these terms? Have you seen the terms I gave the GGA, which started the noCB war that ravaged my alliance and those of my friends? Where was my excessive vindictiveness there? Where was my hate? NPO, the choice of what happens to you next is quite literally in your hands. I have so little control over it that it barely matters. All you have done is publically call out someone who acted as a voice of moderation and reason in the enemy camp. Your public rejection of our consensus terms has been noted. They remain available for you to accept. Oh, and for anyone wondering, we crunched the numbers as to whether NPO could pull of these terms or not. We estimate it would take 3-4 months for NPO to send the reps, while allowing for rebuilding. This is based on the experience of multiple government officials that have had to organize reparations like these. There is also a clause in their terms which guarantees them 1 slot of rebuilding aid for every slot of reps, I didn't see that mentioned here. I worked to make these terms as good as I could, NPO. And you decide to bash me on the OWF. You know where to find us when you decide that attempting to garner sympathy on the OWF is less effective than sitting down and working with us. -Londo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 ((sighs))In all honesty; run the numbers...they are doable. Hell, as a piss-ant 38k nation with a DRA I can push nearly 50 million and 300 tech by myself...per month. And NPO has how many not touched by war? Give me a frakking break. Attempt to do that amount of aid after 60 days of nuclear war, then an addition 2-3 weeks during the "counter period" of nuclear warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkenstein Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Were they given 6 months to pay off these terms, I was under the impression it was 10 cycles. The only restriction was 25k per month. Which is a ridiculously easy number to attain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15pilotX Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Sorry, obviously an NPO member is the expert on Karma ideology here. Please come back with a different argument. Why should I when it is valid? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong. Edited June 13, 2009 by F15pilotX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadriplegic Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 That you are receiving terms at all is far more mercy than you have shown to many others for far lighter crimes. The truth is that the sheer magnitude of your collected sins makes any real attempt at giving you what you deserve impossible. Should your nations be crushed, your leaders cast out, your forums seized, the lands of your whole alliance razed and salted... should you face constant torment for the next two years you shall not have payed a fraction of the blood debt you owe. Sic semper tyrannis, NPO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shwypn Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 welcome to page 15 lol foolz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I don't understand this 244% figure. NPO has 457,015 tech right now. If for some reason unknown to me they decided to convert that $8b to tech (at a rate of 3m/100), it's 267k tech on top. 300,000+267,000 = 567,000, or 124%. Again, this is only if they chose to pay it in tech instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 The same GATO that is currently allied to the New Pacific Order, and the same GATO that'd probably enjoy it if you were to stop using their name as a rallying point. I've supported GATO since the day I first joined this world over three years ago whether they've liked it or not. I'm not going to stop now. And you talk as if GATO and NPO have resigned the Dove Doctrine or something. Don't make me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BastardofGod Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I think its very wrong of the Karma coalition to pin so much on the Pacific realm. Its like the New Pacific Order is the worlds escape goat for all past troubles. Anyway o/ moo and Pacific for carrying on!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Defender Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 More numbers:7 bill/ 3mill = 2,333 slots. 2,333 slots / 6 months = ~400 slots. 400 slots/3cycles/6 slots = 23 nations. I know for a fact that NPO has more nations with 500 mill+ warchests in peace mode than that. Coupled with my stats from earlier: 300,000tech is 6000 slots of 50 tech. 6,000/6months/3cycles per month/6slots= 56 nations. Out of 180 that meet the criteria as of this moment. The idea that these reps aren't payable even if all of their nations were ZI'd is simply ignorant. The idea is ZI'd nations sending out everything they got and then trying to rebuild themselves. Also tech is only from them and once you remove all of it, how do they buy more if they still have to send money to you and can't sent money to procurers. You want to show me math, try and I will blow your wold. And if you are trying to assume 100% effectiveness, think again. OOC: I just finished my finals today and many Universities have graduation next week. You want to try and get any alliance to 90% effectiveness with over 500 members, I would like to laugh at you trying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Exactly. RUN THE NUMBERS.They work, unlike your words, they make you look bad. They ran the numbers and even countered with HIGHER numbers. The issue is the indefinite time period of war before you will start the two week counter which they are just supposed to be beat down. With that unknown variable and the tech scaler, it quickly becomes impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Ok, first things first. NPO guys, you really need to get off the whole preacher platform. Perhaps you have spent your time in the NPO with your head stuck in the sand (NPO forum) but you have no platform from which to preach. You guys really need to figure out a new approach to winning this war of words. Secondly, despite my personal feelings for how many pegs I would like to see knocked out from under the NPO, these terms have me worried about precedents being set for the future. I understand why it is happening now due to what NPO has done in the past but this one.....this is definately the tallest skyscraper in the world when it comes to piling it on. Large reps And destroying the nations that would pay them? I dont know man...maybe lower that percentage of nations or something. This just comes off as two wrongs to me. If we are out to actually destroy the Order then ok I guess. Edited June 13, 2009 by HeinousOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 To the people complaining about losing warchests in those 14 days:If your warchest is small enough so that you lose it in 14 days of combat you deserve to get rolled. If I recall correctly from the CB for this war, doesn't the NPO have a min. 15 day warchest requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denial Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 It is highly likely that any nation with less than 2400 tech would fall below that tech level, mostly due to the fact you wont start the "timer" before 90% of both high end remaining nations and 90% of total alliance enter war mode. Achieving 90% of anything is very difficult with 750members/+ghosts. I highly doubt that from the time the order is given, that the counter will be started anytime close. And why, exactly, should Karma adjust its fair and just terms to reflect the incompetence of the New Pacific Order? Isn't this the alliance that touts itself as an organisational powerhouse? The fact remains that the number of nations possessing 1k technology or above would likely not fall under ~70. Not to mention that intelligence gathering has provided us with an accurate picture of just how high the warchests of many nations in that 1k - 2k technology range are. They're more than capable of utilising warchest funds to increase the base number of nations permitted to make reparations payments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Stupid Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 You really have no idea how many times other alliances wanted to attack Polaris, but were kept back because of Pacifica, do you?Also, what does "treason" have to do with hypocrisy over terms and other non-related ideals? Please enlighten us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Why should I when it is valid? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong. Your argument is neither valid nor correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Karma isn't even clear on what Karma's ideology is. And if I recall correctly, have even said so on several occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 If I recall correctly from the CB for this war, doesn't the NPO have a min. 15 day warchest requirement. Unlike in most other alliances that 15 days is in collections, not bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakamitai Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I am very disappointed by the level of personal attacks in this thread. I encourage everyone who has something to contribute to the discussion to do so, but please: attack ideas, not people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Your knowledge of economics is faulty then. It takes maybe 4 or 5K infra to bank. That takes about 100 million from ZI to get to. I've seen the spy reports, scores of nations have 300 or 500 mill+ on hand. They'll easily have 100 mill left over and still be able to bank just as well as if they hadn't been attacked at all. Hundreds of your other nations will have a full set of economic improvements and numerous economic wonders and be able to build back up to the middle/banking ranks within a month or two. 3-500 million is nowhere near enough to fight and WIN 3v1s for any other than the shortest of time periods. Considering the 14 day clock doesn't start until after 90% of the alliance is out of peacemode - which could be 3 days or 3 weeks - makes this a less than simple calculation. Several hundred million is not going to last 3-5 weeks of 3v1s if the nation is actually trying to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proxian Empire Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 You really have no idea how many times other alliances wanted to attack Polaris, but were kept back because of Pacifica, do you?Also, what does "treason" have to do with hypocrisy over terms and other non-related ideals? Except that the No CB War was orchestrated by Pacifica in coordination with her Continuum allies, including Moo coming into Polar's surrender talks and demanding that Random Interrupt and Mussolandia be banished, Griswalds (NPO Spy) be placed as Emperor of NpO as a puppet leader, and the punishment of our peace mode nations (recommended by Moo who claimed he disliked peace mode cowards). Two out of these three demands were met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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