Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Sileath]

I would like for it to be known that, had I not worked to assemble surrender terms in the first place, that NPO would be in a state of indefinite war from a significant subset of the alliances attacking them. I'm well aware that these terms are harsh, as harsh as any that have ever been given. I wish I had the authority to negotiate all on my own, so that we could arrive at a set of terms that was acceptable to everyone. But I don't. I am but one leader of 18 alliances that are engaged with NPO, and the wishes of the many, not the one, rule the day. I have been a mouthpiece, and a negotiator, and but one leader of 18 sovereign alliances, all of whom have had their own demands, their own wishes, and their own ideas.

For the NPO to pin the blame on me for this situation or these terms is the height of foolishness. I have negotiated DOWN from some of the original demands. Three weeks of additional war became two weeks, for instance. 50,000 minimum tech per month became 25,000, to allow for increased rebuilding aid. Do you all even have any idea of how hard it is to get so many different alliances to agree to ANYTHING? Do you imagine that I personally stipulated all these terms? Have you seen the terms I gave the GGA, which started the noCB war that ravaged my alliance and those of my friends? Where was my excessive vindictiveness there? Where was my hate?

NPO, the choice of what happens to you next is quite literally in your hands. I have so little control over it that it barely matters. All you have done is publically call out someone who acted as a voice of moderation and reason in the enemy camp. Your public rejection of our consensus terms has been noted. They remain available for you to accept.

Oh, and for anyone wondering, we crunched the numbers as to whether NPO could pull of these terms or not. We estimate it would take 3-4 months for NPO to send the reps, while allowing for rebuilding. This is based on the experience of multiple government officials that have had to organize reparations like these. There is also a clause in their terms which guarantees them 1 slot of rebuilding aid for every slot of reps, I didn't see that mentioned here. I worked to make these terms as good as I could, NPO. And you decide to bash me on the OWF.

You know where to find us when you decide that attempting to garner sympathy on the OWF is less effective than sitting down and working with us.

-Londo

Epic post is epic.

o/ Londo \o

[Angrator]

I really wish people would stop saying "Look up Karma before posting". It's not witty. We all know what Karma is.

To that I would respond with the following:

Look up Karma before posting. You obviously have no idea what it means. The mountain of crushed alliances and nations underneath your boots makes your high and mighty martyrdom a complete and utter farce. I realize that even as I am saying this, I am probably being added to the "nonexistent" lists that you guys don't have for your enemies.

[Zeta Defender]

I've supported GATO since the day I first joined this world over three years ago whether they've liked it or not. I'm not going to stop now. And you talk as if GATO and NPO have resigned the Dove Doctrine or something. Don't make me laugh.

As much as we maybe overstayed our welcome by about a few weeks. We elevated GATO to a position where they resigned their charter, build a court, a tech corps and saved and redesigned their culture showing us that democracy could be an effectiveness system of government for an alliance. Respect is there which is something as much as you say how evil we are will not go away.

[Kzoppistan]

If the KARMA alliances want to burn their own resources beating a downed opponent because they won't except extravagant reps, then it won't be any surprise if they are over taken by those who were smart enough to stay out of the war. By continuing to war, these nations are slowly digging their own grave. Not only is war taking a toll on the morale and stamina, but the risk of being painted by history as greedy pigs will not help them.

The smart move would be to come back to the negotiation table and agree to what is already a plentiful bounty.

[Hawkenstein]

I would like for it to be known that, had I not worked to assemble surrender terms in the first place, that NPO would be in a state of indefinite war from a significant subset of the alliances attacking them. I'm well aware that these terms are harsh, as harsh as any that have ever been given. I wish I had the authority to negotiate all on my own, so that we could arrive at a set of terms that was acceptable to everyone. But I don't. I am but one leader of 18 alliances that are engaged with NPO, and the wishes of the many, not the one, rule the day. I have been a mouthpiece, and a negotiator, and but one leader of 18 sovereign alliances, all of whom have had their own demands, their own wishes, and their own ideas.

For the NPO to pin the blame on me for this situation or these terms is the height of foolishness. I have negotiated DOWN from some of the original demands. Three weeks of additional war became two weeks, for instance. 50,000 minimum tech per month became 25,000, to allow for increased rebuilding aid. Do you all even have any idea of how hard it is to get so many different alliances to agree to ANYTHING? Do you imagine that I personally stipulated all these terms? Have you seen the terms I gave the GGA, which started the noCB war that ravaged my alliance and those of my friends? Where was my excessive vindictiveness there? Where was my hate?

NPO, the choice of what happens to you next is quite literally in your hands. I have so little control over it that it barely matters. All you have done is publically call out someone who acted as a voice of moderation and reason in the enemy camp. Your public rejection of our consensus terms has been noted. They remain available for you to accept.

Oh, and for anyone wondering, we crunched the numbers as to whether NPO could pull of these terms or not. We estimate it would take 3-4 months for NPO to send the reps, while allowing for rebuilding. This is based on the experience of multiple government officials that have had to organize reparations like these. There is also a clause in their terms which guarantees them 1 slot of rebuilding aid for every slot of reps, I didn't see that mentioned here. I worked to make these terms as good as I could, NPO. And you decide to bash me on the OWF.

You know where to find us when you decide that attempting to garner sympathy on the OWF is less effective than sitting down and working with us.

-Londo

This man speaks the truth.

[mhawk]

Apparently neither do you. These terms can be paid off in less than 6 months.

The counter offer certainly can be done. The issue is with the indefinite period of attacks during the period to reach the "two week counter" of getting hit. I'm curious if you've figured out the damage done during that time, in addition to the nations it eliminates from the rep payers?

[Tojamn]

Umm,

I would like too point out and remind everyone on BOTH sides *eyes KARMA*, that this war originally started because we the NPO declared on and attacked OV.

Soo if you go thru the many threads here on the forums and view all the alliances actions.. KARMA is guilty of committing "EVIL" "CRIMES" against NPO and all the allies who fight and fought against KARMA. Because according too ALL the original DOWS, all the KARMA alliances got involved thru treaties because NPO attacked OV, NOT because of what we did over the past 5 years.

not 1 DOW was about NPO's past crimes.

So KARMA you are acting just as bad and criminal as NPO is being accused of. for imposing impossible terms for reasons NOT associated with the original DOW's

So rethink your terms that are Associated with the original DOW. not items that you can bring up from now and for the past 10 years.

Thank you

[F15pilotX]

Your argument is neither valid nor correct.

Why don't you explain?

[greatmagnus]

Unlike in most other alliances that 15 days is in collections, not bills.

Small warchests are still small.

[Azaghul]

To the people complaining about losing warchests in those 14 days:

If your warchest is small enough so that you lose it in 14 days of combat you deserve to get rolled.

Especially if you're a "bank"

[The Manbearpig]

F15, you're smart enough to know what Karma means.

True, but the organization known as Karma has essentially assigned a different definition to its own name by giving white peace to so many where true Karma would have been enforcing reps. The organization known as Karma does not really mean Karma to that effect, which is why so many people are calling them hypocrites now.

I'm not supporting anybody's side, I haven't been around long enough to know a lot of the "atrocities" by either side, I'm just trying to set some definitions straight here.

[Colonel Radec]

I wonder if these reps are INCLUDING the retarded counter for having each nation in peacemode. Last I checked it was rather high.

[Drai]

Considering the warchests your mid-top nation supposedly have I would say that 14 days of war won't inhibit your ability to pay those reps. Trying to make those reps seem impossible in hope of getting around the war part of the terms won't work.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Drai

[Hawkenstein]

The counter offer certainly can be done. The issue is with the indefinite period of attacks during the period to reach the "two week counter" of getting hit. I'm curious if you've figured out the damage done during that time, in addition to the nations it eliminates from the rep payers?

With the 1 billion + warchests that most NPO nations hold it would be easy to pay off the reps. Yes we have done the calculations and yes we have the warchest numbers

[FireLordZuko]

I am laughing so hard right now because of this pity party Trotsky is trying to throw yet no one is buying it

Your beloved pacifica wouldn't be in this mess had Trotsky not coup out Ivan Moldavi. Your alliance has befriended and then betrayed many alliances in this game. I wont be satisfied until I see this alliance unsanctioned and given worse treatment than they did to GATO and FAN. Your rule over CN is over Trotsky and you brought yourself to your own demise

Hail Karma!!!

Edited June 13, 2009 by FireLordZuko

[Flonker]

Here is my analysis as a interested and now neutral third party.

What has been forgotten in those calculations for the time it would take to pays reps is that the bank nations and high tech nations will have to spend 2 weeks (14 days) in full nuclear war. After 14 days their warchests will be empty and they would of lost most of their tech and infrastructure.

Thus I would estimate that these terms would take closer to a year to eighteen months to pay and will more than likely lead to the disbandment of the NPO at worst or their relegation to permanent non sanctioned remnant alliance status at best. And this is assuming that they can keep their few remaining functional bank nations that are not destroyed by twelve days of taking three nukes a day.

I'd like to point out that when NPO conquered ONOS, part of the initial terms were that any ONOS nation in peace mode at the beginning of the war was subject to one day of war for every day the non-peacemode rank and file members had to face.

[Ghostlin]

I'm going to be thoughtful and academic here for a minute and ask, do you know the reasoning behind these terms?

Studying CN history, there are two things that are working against NPO not getting lesser terms:

1) NPO, own up for a minute that some of the things you may have done in your dual impulse of self preservation and ensuring the world would dance to your tune has given the Karma alliances reason to dislike you. After all, a lot of them have served in alliances that were rolled at your behest, if not directly by you, and forced to serve Viceroy ships, humiliating disarms, eternal war, and yes, horrible reps. Do you feel any of the despair that you've forced on others?

I can admit revenge can be a petty impulse, but when you are brought low in what must seem to some as a poetic bit of irony, how can you cry unfair when it's seen as a matter of equity? I mean, GOONS was considered to be some meanies, but history bears out that they were rolled for LESS than this.

I'm not saying you should be an eternal tech farm or beaten down to the point where you must disband, but spending a nine months to a year in contemplation on how badly you've treated the rest of this world does in fact seem fair and reasonable. Now, the alliances that are fighting you must sorta decide how the best way to do that is, and expecting no reps or some very not large numbers just simply isn't going to happen. (If someone could show me the numbers of the reps and how'd that break down without the subject spin, I'd appreciate it.)

2) You lost Great War 1. The alliance called LUE let you off with a set of apologies and one resignation. You've done everything to crush anyone that disagrees with you while you were on top, including the alliances that represented the other side of the polarity multiple times.

Karma does not want there to be a Karma War 2, and so far, you don't respond well to kindness citing that example. You created this wheel of suffering, and no one wants you back to recreate it. And so far, you've done nothing that doesn't imply you won't hunt us all down singularly for your revenge. What kind of guarantee would you promise us? Your word? I'm not sure that's good currency in these parts. So far, we've seen the examples of what happens with people who make pacts with Pacifica if Pacifica decides later that it was no longer convenient.

It's not a matter of fear, even, it's that we don't trust you not abuse any chance we give you.

There's what you have to overcome. And the standard PR move of feeding us what we've always wanted to see and then playing how Karma's continuing to be the bad guy doesn't float with a lot of CN veterans around here. If you had just announced the dissolution of the doctrine, I think this would of had a different tone and continued to work things out behind the scenes with the folks you've surrendered to. Right now, it seems that you're more interested in scoring PR points at the expense of the Karma alliances, which doesn't befriend you to them. And you'll need the friends when this is over.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Ghostlin

[TheEraser]

You really have no idea how many times other alliances wanted to attack Polaris, but were kept back because of Pacifica, do you?

Also, what does "treason" have to do with hypocrisy over terms and other non-related ideals?

stop using this pathetic rallying cry. You guys didn't stop people from "rolling" us b/c you liked us or felt any connection to us beyond what we could do for you. Pacifica never once stuck out her hand and said "allow me to help" not even when you promised (iirc) to help us rebuild post war. When grub worked his $@! off to repair relations with the rest of polaris (and from what i'm told Moo as well) the rest of NPO spit in our faces. banning us from your forums, calling us all sorts of things, and acting, well much like a Pacifican. So stop trying to use this tired old line, you "allowed" us to live long enough to pull our weaker (read MCXA and Echelon) allies away with a trail of bread crumbs and a pat on the back. When we were good and politically weakened you severed your ties with us and helped in dismantinling Polaris.

I'm sure there were a lot of reasons that pacifica stopped its "allies" (who are now part of karma i might add) from hitting us, but friendship and a desire to do serve polaris was certainly not one of those reasons.

[Hawkenstein]

Umm,

I would like too point out and remind everyone on BOTH sides *eyes KARMA*, that this war originally started because we the NPO declared on and attacked OV.

Soo if you go thru the many threads here on the forums and view all the alliances actions.. KARMA is guilty of committing "EVIL" "CRIMES" against NPO and all the allies who fight and fought against KARMA. Because according too ALL the original DOWS, all the KARMA alliances got involved thru treaties because NPO attacked OV, NOT because of what we did over the past 5 years.

not 1 DOW was about NPO's past crimes.

So KARMA you are acting just as bad and criminal as NPO is being accused of. for imposing impossible terms for reasons NOT associated with the original DOW's

So rethink your terms that are Associated with the original DOW. not items that you can bring up from now and for the past 10 years.

Thank you

It's not impossible. You can pay it off in 3-4 months.

[noob5]

I wonder if these reps are INCLUDING the retarded counter for having each nation in peacemode. Last I checked it was rather high.

Ah yes, if you think these current terms are ridiculous, make sure to tack those on too.

[shwypn]

We have a winner!

Except that the No CB War was orchestrated by Pacifica in coordination with her Continuum allies, including Moo coming into Polar's surrender talks and demanding that Random Interrupt and Mussolandia be banished, Griswalds (NPO Spy) be placed as Emperor of NpO as a puppet leader, and the punishment of our peace mode nations (recommended by Moo who claimed he disliked peace mode cowards). Two out of these three demands were met.

your a coward, calling you out specifically come find me

this war has been a joy KARMA has been great about keeping our WC filled and OMG i lost some pixel get over it, and stop such a bunch of silly sopz

[mhawk]

And you have apparently no concept of right and wrong. You champion NPO's plight while you stood by and watched them destroy my home as well as helped them destroy many others. Cry all you want about unfairness, but at least people are letting NPO and co. keep what they took from so many others.

What is right and wrong is not something you hold universal rights to decide from your perception. I champion nothing but honoring our treaty and I can not leave a treaty partner to a fate such as this from such revenge blinded egotists as this.

Edited June 13, 2009 by mhawk

[Commander Cato]

Needs stricter terms

o/ Karma

[Ragashingo]

Some of 'us' may not be in GATO any longer but none of us have forgotten the discourtesy and lack of respect with which we were treated by your alliance in the GATO-1V war. The apology to GATO is far too little and far too late in my humble view..

Indeed. I'm in full agreement with you there.

[Gruthenia]

Maybe because GATO asked everyone to stop using them as a rallying point, and I'm just reiterating it so that it gets into your head that they're not something you're able to just use as an example over and over and over again. If you knew as much as they did about the situation, then you wouldn't constantly be attempting to use it as a rallying point anyway.

Since GATO's viceroy is unworthy of being listed in a list of Pacifican crimes, would you be willing to have your terms commuted to a viceroy instead since they really aren't so bad?

Oh wait viceroys are so bad they had to be banned by the game's ToS. Heh.