White Chocolate Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 7 hours ago, Smitty256 said: Man, your paranoia is showing. NG isn't involved in this and hasn't ever been involved in this. FTW and NATO wanted to have fun, so we acknowledged Doom's DoW on us and attacked Doom. I don't know how many times we have to explain this. We just wanted to have some fun with Doom but then y'all decided to involve yourselves. Well, there is this treaty called an MDoAP that CLAWS has had with DBDC for a long time. It is not a secret treaty. It is not like you all did not know about it either. Our involvement is no surprise I am sure. 2 hours ago, kerschbs said: I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn’t for you meddlesome kids! Glad you admit it. 17 minutes ago, firingline said: You don't get to speak for the coalition until you actually join the coalition. Agreed. They do talk a lot for people who claim not to be involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hershey Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 7 hours ago, Smitty256 said: Man, your paranoia is showing. NG isn't involved in this and hasn't ever been involved in this. FTW and NATO wanted to have fun, so we acknowledged Doom's DoW on us and attacked Doom. I don't know how many times we have to explain this. We just wanted to have some fun with Doom but then y'all decided to involve yourselves. If DBDC did truly declare a “war” on FTW and NATO back in 2020 then why did FTW and NATO continue to participate with a member of DBDC in the VEP program until now? I do find that part to be quite perplexing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galtian Commune Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 7 hours ago, Smitty256 said: Man, your paranoia is showing. NG isn't involved in this and hasn't ever been involved in this. FTW and NATO wanted to have fun, so we acknowledged Doom's DoW on us and attacked Doom. I don't know how many times we have to explain this. We just wanted to have some fun with Doom but then y'all decided to involve yourselves. I don’t recall anyone else adding their signatures to that announcement. Certainly not DS/DW, as FL stated earlier, they did not exist at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 So all trolling aside, I think we all know what happened here. FTW and NATO wanted to start some !@#$, they decided to pick the biggest, baddest mofo in the yard to punch in the mouth. All in good fun. But their gang buddies who were egging them on, got scared and in order to keep friendly with the bad mofo, decided to kick their former gang friends in the teeth while furiously lasering off their tattoos. So this is both a good fun, friendly war with DOOM while being an angry war with NPO/NpO and possibly others. That's how I see it anyways. If we end up back at status quo after this, I suspect we won't see another war of this size again. Or, maybe some of the revelations coming out will cause a breakup of the existing power structure and we can all get back to what we all do best, rolling NpO. Disclaimer: I could be completely wrong about the reasons why FTW/NATO picked DOOM, I wasn't involved in the planning and can't be bothered to ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroofTime55 Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Tevron said: ITT: An attack on one is an attack on all is somehow represented as an attack from one is and from all. If we really want to be semantic, there is a difference between "an attack on one..." and "a war against one..." the latter being a choice that can be made internally, not just externally. Doom can (and did) make the choice to put others in a state of war against Doom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tevron Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said: If we really want to be semantic, there is a difference between "an attack on one..." and "a war against one..." the latter being a choice that can be made internally, not just externally. Doom can (and did) make the choice to put others in a state of war against Doom. You are aware that saying the word semantic in a literal discussion about meaning doesn't somehow invalidate your own statements or my questions, right? Semantics are about meaning, so obviously meaning does matter. The use of "arguing semantics" is supposed to be deployed when both people actually agree, they just are using the wrong definitions. (And the arguments become a disagreement about the terms themselves -- the discourse field and its meanings) You've elected to ascribe the choice of DBDC as the choice of DS and DW. That's what I take issue with, and you're doing it again here. Should we take your argument seriously, then I guess "RFD" declared war on DBDC too. Either way, alliance sovereignty does exist and equating an individual's declaration to a group is simply inaccurate. (Or was this Al Bundy's plan all along????!!!!?!??) Edited July 5, 2022 by Tevron clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, Tevron said: You are aware that saying the word semantic in a literal discussion about meaning doesn't somehow invalidate your own statements or my questions, right? Semantics are about meaning, so obviously meaning does matter. The use of "arguing semantics" is supposed to be deployed when both people actually agree, they just are using the wrong definitions. (And the arguments become a disagreement about the terms themselves -- the discourse field and its meanings) You've elected to ascribe the choice of DBDC as the choice of DS and DW. That's what I take issue with, and you're doing it again here. Should we take your argument seriously, then I guess "RFD" declared war on DBDC too. Either way, alliance sovereignty does exist and equating an individual's declaration to a group is simply inaccurate. (Or was this Al Bundy's plan all along????!!!!?!??) Can confirm that I’m a deep state actor for Al Bundy. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tevron Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Velocity said: Can confirm that I’m a deep state actor for Al Bundy. 🙂 Shoe salesmen have gone too far!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, White Chocolate said: Welcome, Sparta. Now you have FTW, NATO, Legion, and Sparta. Question - what about Non Grata? Personally I was expecting a DoW from Non Grata every time someone else declared. What’s their excuse to those fighting? Do not get me wrong, I can see Non Grata loving this arrangement. I imagine the snickering behind the rest of your backs is a lot of fun. Convincing your former enemies to do all the fighting against your other enemy. Sweet. Tell them you’re coming in later. “Support” them on the OWF enough and maybe their membership will assume you are fighting too. Blah blah blah blah. Words are cheap *WC does literally the bare minimum and flees to PM. Those are a lot of words from someone as worthless as you ❤️. Is this projection? It feels like projection... Edited July 5, 2022 by Caustic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilweirdward Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 23 minutes ago, Tevron said: You've elected to ascribe the choice of DBDC as the choice of DS and DW. That's what I take issue with, and you're doing it again here. Should we take your argument seriously, then I guess "RFD" declared war on DBDC too. Either way, alliance sovereignty does exist and equating an individual's declaration to a group is simply inaccurate. I don't know if this is just genuinely confusing everyone or if some folks are being deliberately obtuse, but I can make this really simple either way: FTW and NATO responded defensively to DBDC's blanket DoW, and included DS and DW as a preemptive action. Here are some other FAQ that are hopefully helpful: Are you ascribing DBDC's actions to DS and DW, who did not exist at the time that DBDC made their DoW? That's not how preemptive wars work, so no. So why include them? They are indisputably Doom alliances, and have said in the past that attacking one is as good as an attack on all of them, hence the validity of a preemptive strike vs waiting for the inevitable counter. Is that legal? Sure, why not? Isn't that what you all did in Bicycle when you preempted COBRA in your attack on NG? Preemptive war is not a novel idea. Why not include DT/CLAWS? They are not indisputably Doom, or at least weren't prior to this war. Glad everyone is clear that they are now, though. Maybe you all should form an official unofficial meme bloc to prevent any confusion in the future. Does that mean CLAWS/NPO could declare on all of RFD in defense of Doom? Sure! Honestly, I half expected to be preempted on this exact basis, but instead NG and CCC apparently get to enjoy watching the fireworks from the sidelines, which is cool too! Why wait until now to respond to the DoW? Lots of reasons - timing, coalitions, boredom. Why does anyone do anything at the time they do it versus some other time? What a weird question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1ph4 0m3ga Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 47 minutes ago, Tevron said: Should we take your argument seriously, then I guess "RFD" declared war on DBDC too. The number of people who think RFD is a real bloc is both astounding and concerning. We may have also rolled to hit and ended with a nat 1 meaning we couldn’t roll for damage. Whichever helps you sleep at night 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 These attempts at revisionism are going to be pretty funny in retrospect. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroofTime55 Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Tevron said: You are aware that saying the word semantic in a literal discussion about meaning doesn't somehow invalidate your own statements or my questions, right? Semantics are about meaning, so obviously meaning does matter. The use of "arguing semantics" is supposed to be deployed when both people actually agree, they just are using the wrong definitions. (And the arguments become a disagreement about the terms themselves -- the discourse field and its meanings) You've elected to ascribe the choice of DBDC as the choice of DS and DW. That's what I take issue with, and you're doing it again here. Should we take your argument seriously, then I guess "RFD" declared war on DBDC too. Either way, alliance sovereignty does exist and equating an individual's declaration to a group is simply inaccurate. (Or was this Al Bundy's plan all along????!!!!?!??) Doubling down and being semantic about semantics? Impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todor Jivkov Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 OH Yea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty256 Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 4 hours ago, White Chocolate said: Well, there is this treaty called an MDoAP that CLAWS has had with DBDC for a long time. It is not a secret treaty. It is not like you all did not know about it either. Our involvement is no surprise I am sure. Don't talk down to me. Treaties are just pieces of paper. Most treaties in CN mean absolutely nothing nowadays. For instance, CLAWS has 15 treaties. How many of those treaties that y'all frantically signed to protect yourselves from us would actually jump to defend you if you were in a defensive war? I'm guessing maybe half. Maybe less. Treaties don't mean !@#$ if one of the parties has no intention of ever honoring them, which is most treaties nowadays. FTW and NATO attacked Doom because we wanted to have fun in CN for the first time in a long time. CLAWS declaring on us was everything that I had hoped it would be, in that it hasn't been much of anything. Y'all are just the cherry on top of an already fun war. Y'all worked so hard to defend yourselves against us, even though no one in FTW cares at all about CLAWS, that y'all declared war on us at the first sniff of trouble. WC, you fought 2 wars and then fled into peace mode to protect your precious numbers on a spreadsheet. That's pretty pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrinkledStraw Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 CLAWS gov nations are exceptionally good at protecting, preparing, and growing themselves and no one else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, CrinkledStraw said: CLAWS gov nations are exceptionally good at protecting, preparing, and growing themselves and no one else. Well at least you have something in common! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerschbs Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Caustic said: *WC does literally the bare minimum and flees to PM. Those are a lot of words from someone as worthless as you ❤️. Is this projection? It feels like projection... This didn’t get any attention and it makes me sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gh0s7 Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, lilweirdward said: I don't know if this is just genuinely confusing everyone or if some folks are being deliberately obtuse, but I can make this really simple either way: FTW and NATO responded defensively to DBDC's blanket DoW, and included DS and DW as a preemptive action. Here are some other FAQ that are hopefully helpful: Are you ascribing DBDC's actions to DS and DW, who did not exist at the time that DBDC made their DoW? That's not how preemptive wars work, so no. So why include them? They are indisputably Doom alliances, and have said in the past that attacking one is as good as an attack on all of them, hence the validity of a preemptive strike vs waiting for the inevitable counter. Is that legal? Sure, why not? Isn't that what you all did in Bicycle when you preempted COBRA in your attack on NG? Preemptive war is not a novel idea. Why not include DT/CLAWS? They are not indisputably Doom, or at least weren't prior to this war. Glad everyone is clear that they are now, though. Maybe you all should form an official unofficial meme bloc to prevent any confusion in the future. Does that mean CLAWS/NPO could declare on all of RFD in defense of Doom? Sure! Honestly, I half expected to be preempted on this exact basis, but instead NG and CCC apparently get to enjoy watching the fireworks from the sidelines, which is cool too! Why wait until now to respond to the DoW? Lots of reasons - timing, coalitions, boredom. Why does anyone do anything at the time they do it versus some other time? What a weird question. Just to be clear, a pre emotive strike is not defensive. We're fine with a war, but trying to call it a defensive war when neither DS nor DW attacked any of the parties involved is far fetched at best. And I don't think FTW or NATO were directly attacked by DBDC? Regardless, this adds fun an excitement, so let's have it. Edited July 5, 2022 by Gh0s7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Chocolate Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, kerschbs said: This didn’t get any attention and it makes me sad. It makes me sad as well. I was hopeful that someone in Non Grata would be the one to make me feel like I would have to bother with peace mode after a fight. But no - it's Freehold of the Wolves. Your guy in my range is also in peace mode. I am assuming that the majority of FTW in peace is strategic. I have not seen a DoW (thread) yet from Non Grata though. Edited July 5, 2022 by White Chocolate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegir Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Gh0s7 said: Just to be clear, a pre emotive strike is not defensive The best defense is a good offense! Maybe it's just because I'm new to these parts, but it seems like if DOOM didn't want the world to assume that DOOM is really just one group that has created (or subsumed!) multiple alliances for the sake of political fiction, maybe they should stop referring to themselves collectively as DOOM in the OWF. Kinda weird to blame everyone else for being confused in the face of your own obfuscation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroofTime55 Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, White Chocolate said: It makes me sad as well. I was hopeful that someone in Non Grata would be the one to make me feel like I would have to bother with peace mode after a fight. But no - it's Freehold of the Wolves. Your guy in my range is also in peace mode. I am assuming that the majority of FTW in peace is strategic. I have not seen a DoW (thread) yet from Non Grata though. We're not going to. As you pointed out, we are cowards who intend to sit on the sidelines and watch others fight, while we sit here and do nothing. I have a lot of big spreadsheet numbers! I wouldn't want them to decrease in value, that would be terrible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gh0s7 Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, Vaegir said: The best defense is a good offense! Maybe it's just because I'm new to these parts, but it seems like if DOOM didn't want the world to assume that DOOM is really just one group that has created (or subsumed!) multiple alliances for the sake of political fiction, maybe they should stop referring to themselves collectively as DOOM in the OWF. Kinda weird to blame everyone else for being confused in the face of your own obfuscation. You use that excuse when it's convenient and ignore it when its convenient. DT is also referred to as Doom, and yet they were left out. It's disingenuous and you know it, but I also acknowledge you'll probably quit this world before you'll ever confess to it. So we'll see you on the war screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegir Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Gh0s7 said: You use that excuse when it's convenient and ignore it when its convenient. DT is also referred to as Doom, and yet they were left out. It's disingenuous and you know it, but I also acknowledge you'll probably quit this world before you'll ever confess to it. So we'll see you on the war screen. Did you really hit me with the "no u?" Way to go champ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, White Chocolate said: It makes me sad as well. I was hopeful that someone in Non Grata would be the one to make me feel like I would have to bother with peace mode after a fight. But no - it's Freehold of the Wolves. Your guy in my range is also in peace mode. I am assuming that the majority of FTW in peace is strategic. I have not seen a DoW (thread) yet from Non Grata though. Projection confirmed. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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