Hearts Of Iron Are Broken, II Of Them

[Crymson]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1353336822' post='3054516']
So basically what you are saying is you've gone senile?
[/quote]

Good one! Consider comedy as a choice of profession, as you're clearly a titan amongst men where the art of humor is concerned.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1353328164' post='3054483']
As I said, I am not sure it makes sense. I don't like your alliance for a variety of reasons but I have rarely said anything about you in the past. I try to confine my trips out from under the bridge for TOP not IRON.

Please do not expect me to cheer you from the sidelines because you finally realised something blind freddy could see years ago. Please do not expect me to stay under my bridge when such delightful opportunities present themselves, there is so little that happens now worth commenting on.

Everything.Must.FlipFlop
[/quote]

I expect nothing from you, the only time I ever did you let me down big time. Once bitten twice shy.


[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1353335684' post='3054509']
I disagree with the premise of this statement, but Feanor has already been over that himself.

I don't see the point, in reference to this relationship, in analyses or assignations of contributions or or anything of the sort by anyone. Our relationship with IRON was a long one. We both gave and we both took, and there were periods of greater give and lesser take for each of us at different times. Such is the nature of all relationships. But it is---I'm certain IRON is in agreement on this---frankly not the place of any outside IRON or TOP to make judgments on the matter.




I don't know what you're referring to.



Whatever the case, with regards to the choices we've made lately, everyone should note that a great deal of us at TOP are crotchety, old CN-men who have played for a long time; we're bored with Cybernations, jaded with its changeless politics, have little patience for waiting and bickering, and carry less likelihood to compromise, and we're inclined these days to select a course and roll with it with far less consideration or worry of the future consequences to us (namely our security) than we would have in earlier times, the latter in very large part because Cybernations has become immensely trite to many of us and does not have a tremendous amount of future left to it anyway (though this is not to say that we do not take our relationships and obligations seriously; we are not an immoral or duplicitous bunch by any means). It would have been easier and far safer for us to have simply gravitated toward IRON, signed a treaty with another major alliance in that general sphere, and just floated about for awhile, but---as noted---we've a superfluity of ennui and a paucity of patience where the politics of Cybernations are concerned.

Though of course we liked IRON and still do, differences in method had grown between us for some time, there had been plenty of bickering for awhile, and in the end we didn't really have the willingness to make the sacrifices they felt we needed to make in order to keep the relationship alive. When it was asked of us---in addition to the fulfillment of other conditions---in the context of the supposedly upcoming DH-DR conflict (one that some others apparently feel is inevitable, but which we legitimately considered extremely speculative and unlikely), that we pledge beforehand to side with IRON over our other allies in the DH sphere, we baulked, unwilling to make such a commitment. In the end, because we and IRON had been traveling different paths for some time---politically and (in greater part) methodically---we ended up, by default, with the allies with whom we had more in common. And because we have so little endurance at this late stage for argument and bickering---and although we will miss IRON---that is for the best for TOP in most ways, if not in some others; but those others don't matter much to us now. In sum, you can say whatever you wish about us and it won't really matter. This is a time very late in CN's proverbial day for a great deal of us, and we'll play [i]our[/i] way, come what may.
[/quote]

I actually agree with pretty much everything you have said here except where you insinuate that IRON requested that you side with us in the next theoretical conflict and that your refusal to grant such a request was a primary condition for the cancellation. It is self-evident that a situation where TOP is on IRON's side in the event of said conflict would be ideal for us and indeed you were asked what side of the battle line you would prefer to be on if said conflict occurred, but no request was ever made that you commit yourself to IRON's side. You made clear where you perceived your interests to be and we ours, to state that IRON requested you to pick a side is no more true than it would be for me to say that TOP requested that we sit neutral because one of your members asked if that was a possibility in the event of said conflict.

In any case on the whole this is a much better analysis of our respective positions than I have seen from you thus far, so kudos.

[Crymson]

[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1353337241' post='3054518']
I expect nothing from you, the only time I ever did you let me down big time. Once bitten twice shy.




I actually agree with pretty much everything you have said here except where you insinuate that IRON requested that you side with us in the next theoretical conflict and that your refusal to grant such a request was a primary condition for the cancellation. It is self-evident that a situation where TOP is on IRON's side in the event of said conflict would be ideal for us and indeed you were asked what side of the battle line you would prefer to be on if said conflict occurred, but no request was ever made that you commit yourself to IRON's side. You made clear where you perceived your interests to be and we ours, to state that IRON requested you to pick a side is no more true than it would be for me to say that TOP requested that we sit neutral because one of your members asked if that was a possibility in the event of said conflict.

In any case on the whole this is a much better analysis of our respective positions than I have seen from you thus far, so kudos.
[/quote]

It was, in my perspective, perhaps the greatest point of contention in recent discussions, so I'm a bit confused. I suppose it doesn't matter anymore, though---the deed is done---so there's probably nothing to be gained by revisiting it.

Rabby, we've had an often acrimonious recent past---especially in the last two months---but we had many more good times before that. I regret that things turned out so badly between us. More than likely it came of us both---or at perhaps just me---being old and tired of politics. Anyway, I enjoyed our interactions in our years of funner days quite a bit. Maybe we can try to remember the better times rather than the worse times.

[Samus]

Crymson

Also inevitable end of Double Vision.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Samus

[Omniscient1]

I love how the spin doctors (not just Crymson) claim that by supporting the people in charge they are doing something brave. Or even worse claim they're tired Of the way CN is and then support the same system.

[D34th]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1353335684' post='3054509']
It would have been easier and far safer for us to have simply gravitated toward IRON, signed a treaty with another major alliance in that general sphere, and just floated about for awhile...
[/quote]

This is the type of thing of alliances have been doing for so long and is exactly what made CN politics changeless and consequently extremely boring, if people cared less for their security we would have a much better and interesting cyberverse. So if TOP finally realized that, even if for the wrong reasons, I must applaud your alliance for once.

Now CnG and everyone else who still keep conflicting treaties in order to choose the most safe path when a war come, please pay attention and learn this lesson and stop being infra lovers who care so much about winning wars that give up your sovereignty, proud, self-respect and everything else in order to be in the winning side.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Samus' timestamp='1353344506' post='3054539']
Also inevitable end of Double Vision.
[/quote]

Reminds me of a story... my friend was really drunk in Ocean City (4 hours from where we live) and he was seeing double. But he (kids do not do this!) drove home.

The next day he told us that he was so drunk he was seeing double so he just closed one eye and drove home normally... lol

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1353344594' post='3054540']
I love how the spin doctors (not just Crymson) claim that by supporting the people in charge they are doing something brave. Or even worse claim they're tired Of the way CN is and then support the same system.
[/quote]
Who's in charge?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1353328164' post='3054483']


As I said, I am not sure it makes sense. I don't like your alliance for a variety of reasons but I have rarely said anything about you in the past. I try to confine my trips out from under the bridge for TOP not IRON.

Please do not expect me to cheer you from the sidelines because you finally realised something blind freddy could see years ago. Please do not expect me to stay under my bridge when such delightful opportunities present themselves, there is so little that happens now worth commenting on.

Everything.Must.FlipFlop
[/quote]
Hey, uh, grub? Perhaps you didn't get.the memo but the world is currently run by a variety of spheres competing for power. Perhaps you should try not pissing off all of them? it reflects badly on your alliance. Welp, cya

Edited November 19, 2012 by Sardonic

[hobbies0310]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1353347811' post='3054554']
This is the type of thing of alliances have been doing for so long and is exactly what made CN politics changeless and consequently extremely boring, if people cared less for their security we would have a much better and interesting cyberverse. So if TOP finally realized that, even if for the wrong reasons, I must applaud your alliance for once.

Now CnG and everyone else who still keep conflicting treaties in order to choose the most safe path when a war come, please pay attention and learn this lesson and stop being infra lovers who care so much about winning wars that give up your sovereignty, proud, self-respect and everything else in order to be in the winning side.
[/quote]
I agreed with your first paragraph completely. Then you lose me in the second one. Choosing which treaties to drop isn't as easy as winning and losing when there is actual friendships behind each one. Maybe thats something you don't understand.

[Commander shepard]

[quote name='hobbies0310' timestamp='1353350332' post='3054570']
I agreed with your first paragraph completely. Then you lose me in the second one. Choosing which treaties to drop isn't as easy as winning and losing when there is actual friendships behind each one. Maybe thats something you don't understand.
[/quote]

He lost me on the first because TOP didn't choose a non safe pass, realizing you aren't on a safe path anymore is hardly something to be proud of.
And hardly something to be praising someone for.
And then to diss CnG and everyone else for not been forced off a safe path is a bit silly.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Commander shepard

[trimm]

[quote name='hobbies0310' timestamp='1353350332' post='3054570']

I agreed with your first paragraph completely. Then you lose me in the second one. Choosing which treaties to drop isn't as easy as winning and losing when there is actual friendships behind each one. Maybe thats something you don't understand.
[/quote]

Treaties are about politics first and friendships second. Part of the sad stagnation around here is just how many people have forgotten that. No one said you had to sign binding high level military treaties with someone to be their friend, or keep those treaties to stay friends.

[D34th]

[quote name='hobbies0310' timestamp='1353350332' post='3054570']
I agreed with your first paragraph completely. Then you lose me in the second one. Choosing which treaties to drop isn't as easy as winning and losing when there is actual friendships behind each one. Maybe thats something you don't understand.
[/quote]

What you don't understand is that this isn't a friendship simulator, and please, CnG alliances and the bloc as whole has a history full of examples of them choosing the winning side.

[berbers]

Actually, I'd say there is a history of CnG allies fighting on the same side as the majority of their allies, which also happened to be the winning side.

Now if they suddenly went against a side that has the majority of their treaties and jumped to the winning side that had less treaties, then I would see your point.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1353325253' post='3054475']
The fact is I have defended our treaty for years. It was Crymson and I that arranged our campaign against CnG, I was President of IRON and actively facilitated the attack on Polar and I was the main proponent supporting your request for assistance against Sparta even in light of concerns from our DR allies.
[/quote]

Confirming this. It'd be very off base to say that IRON backing you in the last war was at all politically convenient for them, when it upset just about everyone else they were close to [i]besides[b] [/b][/i]you. If you guys want to know why they canceled, you really need to look closer to home.

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1353349905' post='3054567']
Hey, uh, grub? Perhaps you didn't get.the memo but the world is currently run by a variety of spheres competing for power. Perhaps you should try not pissing off all of them? it reflects badly on your alliance. Welp, cya
[/quote]

Duly noted. IF pissing off IRON, TOP or GOONS was of a remote concern to me I might take your advice. Considering that all three alliances have a level of disgust for me that pre-exists this thread, I do not see how poking the edges will hurt me or Polaris at all. In fact nothing I can do or say right now could ever change how we all feel... l will go back under the bridge and await the pace of the politics around here to catch up to what is inevitable. Then when that is resolved, maybe I will still be awake or maybe I wont, either way there is no repairing of relationships with your alliance, or most others involved, so my care factor will likely be as it is now, nil.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1353349905' post='3054567']
Hey, uh, grub? Perhaps you didn't get.the memo but the world is currently run by a variety of spheres competing for power. Perhaps you should try not pissing off all of them? it reflects badly on your alliance. Welp, cya
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure all of them except yours have a skin thickness above "Prepubescent girl" so I think Grub and Polar are going to be fine.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1353361347' post='3054631']
I'm pretty sure all of them except yours have a skin thickness above "Prepubescent girl" so I think Grub and Polar are going to be fine.
[/quote]

Good to see you have Grub's back. You two need to stick together.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1353360979' post='3054629']
If you guys want to know why they canceled, you really need to look closer to home.
[/quote]
We know exactly why they decided to cancel the treaty but we thank you for trying to help us out.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1353361264' post='3054630']
Duly noted. IF pissing off IRON, TOP or GOONS was of a remote concern to me I might take your advice. Considering that all three alliances have a level of disgust for me that pre-exists this thread, I do not see how poking the edges will hurt me or Polaris at all. In fact nothing I can do or say right now could ever change how we all feel... l will go back under the bridge and await the pace of the politics around here to catch up to what is inevitable. Then when that is resolved, maybe I will still be awake or maybe I wont, either way there is no repairing of relationships with your alliance, or most others involved, so my care factor will likely be as it is now, nil.
[/quote]

I'm quite sure the vitriol is mutual.

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1353367490' post='3054654']
We know exactly why they decided to cancel the treaty but we thank you for trying to help us out.
[/quote]


Say it ain't so Feanor! I've got to say, I hold you personally in high esteem, and I am quite depressed to see how this turned out. Not how I envisaged things so long ago.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1353360979' post='3054629']
Confirming this. It'd be very off base to say that IRON backing you in the last war was at all politically convenient for them, when it upset just about everyone else they were close to [i]besides[b] [/b][/i]you. If you guys want to know why they canceled, you really need to look closer to home.
[/quote]

I don't think any of us could possibly care less about your opinions.

[trimm]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1353387144' post='3054843']
I don't think any of us could possibly care less about your opinions.
[/quote]

While the second part is purely his opinion, the first part is a fact that you should think hard before you argue.

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1353347811' post='3054554']
This is the type of thing of alliances have been doing for so long and is exactly what made CN politics changeless and consequently extremely boring, if people cared less for their security we would have a much better and interesting cyberverse. So if TOP finally realized that, even if for the wrong reasons, I must applaud your alliance for once.

Now CnG and everyone else who still keep conflicting treaties in order to choose the most safe path when a war come, please pay attention and learn this lesson and stop being infra lovers who care so much about winning wars that give up your sovereignty, proud, self-respect and everything else in order to be in the winning side.
[/quote]

Come get us. We're waiting. :>

In all seriousness, we don't drop treaties for political expedience nor do we leave old friends out to dry.

[D34th]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1353388878' post='3054863']
Come get us. We're waiting. :>

In all seriousness, we don't drop treaties for political expedience [b]nor do we leave old friends out to dry[/b].
[/quote]

Tell that to Sparta, LSF and RnR.

[King Wally]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1353391040' post='3054883']
Tell that to Sparta, LSF and RnR.
[/quote]

Damn you D34th you beat me to it....