A Statement from Non Grata

[Kapleo]

8 minutes ago, lilweirdward said:

nothing NG could have done would have changed your mind.

Or yours.

[James Spanier]

14 minutes ago, lilweirdward said:

 

 

If I thought you were actually coming into this thread with any sort of genuine interest in seeing if NG was trying to change, I might respond by asking: why can't both be true? Why is it not possible that NG is choosing to be the better person by not matching pettiness for pettiness (at the time of this post, the top 3 posters in this thread are all outside of NG's sphere, and, in my opinion, have been varying degrees of petty), and also consciously doing damage control? What, exactly, would you expect NG to do if, in your mind, they were being genuine? Almost anything that they say is going to get twisted as some sort of "microaggression" - I mean, I've already had someone tell me that, because Stewie forgot to reiterate that OOC attacks are unacceptable in one post, they felt like his comment that it happened after Johnny's antagonistic comments meant that he was justifying what happened. What are they supposed to do except not only be the bigger person by not responding to the bait, but also play damage control by basically not responding at all?

 

Unfortunately, your comment reads less as sincerity and more as acknowledgement that nothing NG could have done would have changed your mind. Honestly, at least folks like BMTH and Masta haven't even pretended like they're giving NG an honest chance, which is a tiny bit more respectable than this nonsense.

 

 

Both can be true, I never said it wasn't possible, or even untrue here. That's why I separated the line about pettiness from the line about sincerity.

 

You're right, I don't think it's sincere on an alliance level, and do I read the silence as being unable to not engage at that level rather than a true sense of being bigger. That's why I broke my own silence to make the observation. That doesn't mean I'm right, the same as it doesn't mean you're right because you might hold an opposite opinion to mine. It's up to NG, not you or I, to be the change, but it is all of us that will see the results regardless. I'm happy to be pleasantly surprised, I'm just not holding my breath for it.

[BringMeTheHorizon]

1 hour ago, lilweirdward said:

Unfortunately, your comment reads less as sincerity and more as acknowledgement that nothing NG could have done would have changed your mind. Honestly, at least folks like BMTH and Masta haven't even pretended like they're giving NG an honest chance, which is a tiny bit more respectable than this nonsense.

 

We can talk about an honest chance, just for a second. We had NG calling for blood of other nations when they have said something against an NG member, which was in character. I’ve also been a ruler of a nation long enough to have seen NG leadership time and time again apologizing or calling for someone else’s head on IC talk. 
 

In this instance there is an OOC attack from them, not the first time mind you. If the apology came with kicking said members who engaged (read the plural, not one but dos) would send a stronger message that they are contrite more-so than an “apology” would ever do. 
 

I like a lot of people in NG, been allied to quite a few of them, and I doubt they would cross that character line like some other NG people have. That doesn’t make this apology sincere, or anything else than damage control over sincerity. That damage control is also radio silence as-well. 

 

If NG kicks the members for engaging in OOC attacks, or hell says have two rounds of war with them we won’t defend them, that is a fair chance to me, as an act of contrition. Even then, the loss of a ruler because of the divide in character and out of character deserves more than a round or two of war. 
 

That is what’s giving an honest chance. Anything else is damage control for the sake of damage control, not because you are genuinely sorry that happened. 

[lilweirdward]

28 minutes ago, BringMeTheHorizon said:

We can talk about an honest chance, just for a second. We had NG calling for blood of other nations when they have said something against an NG member, which was in character. I’ve also been a ruler of a nation long enough to have seen NG leadership time and time again apologizing or calling for someone else’s head on IC talk. 
 

In this instance there is an OOC attack from them, not the first time mind you. If the apology came with kicking said members who engaged (read the plural, not one but dos) would send a stronger message that they are contrite more-so than an “apology” would ever do. 
 

I like a lot of people in NG, been allied to quite a few of them, and I doubt they would cross that character line like some other NG people have. That doesn’t make this apology sincere, or anything else than damage control over sincerity. That damage control is also radio silence as-well. 

 

If NG kicks the members for engaging in OOC attacks, or hell says have two rounds of war with them we won’t defend them, that is a fair chance to me, as an act of contrition. Even then, the loss of a ruler because of the divide in character and out of character deserves more than a round or two of war. 
 

That is what’s giving an honest chance. Anything else is damage control for the sake of damage control, not because you are genuinely sorry that happened. 

 

Kicking a non-gov member who made one (and, as far as I'm aware and have been around, first) mistake, immediately admitted to their mistake, attempted to apologize to the aggrieved parties in private, and has been nothing but remorseful since does not really seem like a fair punishment to me. Every situation is different, and I appreciate that some people might handle certain situations as a leader differently than whoever is actually making those decisions in the moment - I would remind you again that your own ally doesn't seem to think NG should have apologized at all. Personally, I feel like NG has done the right thing by owning up to what happened and not making excuses for it, and I'm willing to give them time to prove that they won't make the same mistake again.

Edited May 30, 2021 by lilweirdward

[BringMeTheHorizon]

17 minutes ago, lilweirdward said:

 

Kicking a non-gov member who made one (and, as far as I'm aware and have been around, first) mistake, immediately admitted to their mistake, attempted to apologize to the aggrieved parties in private, and has been nothing but remorseful since does not really seem like a fair punishment to me. Every situation is different, and I appreciate that some people might handle certain situations as a leader differently than whoever is actually making those decisions in the moment - I would remind you again that your own ally doesn't even think NG should have apologized at all. Personally, I feel like NG has done the right thing by owning up to what happened and not making excuses for it, and I'm willing to give them time to prove that they won't make the same mistake again.

I would remind you that I don’t think an apology was needed, since it was never going to be sincere. See my first post in the topic. 
 

You sit and wait to see if they will change, that’s your fair chance. I wouldn’t expect anything else from an ally to NG. That’s fine. I don’t think they did the right thing, and their excuse making started with this apology thread. 
 

If someone in my alliance did this, even as a first offense, you’re being kicked and attacked. Good luck in your next alliance. That’s my fair chance. If that’s that’s now how others would do it, that’s fine. Examples are set for less, especially over people stealing IG money, spying, in-game and out of game on their communication channels. 
 

I am not sure why an OOC attack is deemed to be less severe as other in-game actions being made examples of. 
 

I don’t care if it was NG, CLAWS, or someone from TFO, OOC attacks need a strong over reaction, rather than an under reaction. 

A strong over reaction is not an apology, it’s barely a reaction at all, especially when it comes from someone who didn’t even post the ooc remarks. 
 

I digress. You keep your fair chance at waiting and seeing, but don’t expect others to have same idea of what a fair chance is. 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by BringMeTheHorizon

[Van Hoo X]

So, JA is no longer with us on Bob? This saddens me.

 

 

 

**I would say hello to my NG friends, but I feel like I'd end up drawn into a CN debate. I haven't had a CN debate since 2016.

[Kapleo]

4 hours ago, BringMeTheHorizon said:

I am not sure why an OOC attack is deemed to be less severe as other in-game actions being made examples of. 
 

I don’t care if it was NG, CLAWS, or someone from TFO, OOC attacks need a strong over reaction, rather than an under reaction. 

 

In a nutshell, this. Something the game itself has rules of instaban punishment for violations of the sorts afaik. Yet for some reason some people within the community don't think OOC attacks should have big consequences/reactions.

 

In the end, Stewie can apologize and all, but the apologies become meaningless when you see one of the authors of the OOC attacks flat telling Mochi to go suck a d*ck when Mochi went there to talk about how he felt. Thank you very much.

 

Some of you will clearly continue to defend some of these folks regardless of what they do and regardless of how often they do it, cause y'all know very, very well this is not the first time they do it. Only this time it was there for everyone to see and it caused us a huge loss.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Kapleo

[jerdge]

Or, the Mods should do their work and handle off-game offences?

Wild thought, I know.

 

"OOC attacks" are RL awful, IG consequences are absurd and ineffective. RL offences should be met with RL consequences and that should be all. I've been saying this for well over a decade now. It's beyond me why this discussion never ends.

 

Okay I'm just venting. Again, please carry oon

Edited May 31, 2021 by jerdge
met not meet

[Kapleo]

 

15 minutes ago, jerdge said:

Or, the Mods should do their work and handle off-game offences?

Wild thought, I know.

 

"OOC attacks" are RL awful, IG consequences are absurd and ineffective. RL offences should be met with RL consequences and that should be all. I've been saying this for well over a decade now. It's beyond me why this discussion never ends.

 

Okay I'm just venting. Again, please carry oon

 

Cool, but they are not, Jerdge. By the rules, some people should've been banned a long time ago. I'll take an absurd consequence over no consequence any given Sunday. 

[Neo Uruk]

20 hours ago, lilweirdward said:

 

 

If I thought you were actually coming into this thread with any sort of genuine interest in seeing if NG was trying to change, I might respond by asking: why can't both be true? Why is it not possible that NG is choosing to be the better person by not matching pettiness for pettiness (at the time of this post, the top 3 posters in this thread are all outside of NG's sphere, and, in my opinion, have been varying degrees of petty), and also consciously doing damage control? What, exactly, would you expect NG to do if, in your mind, they were being genuine? Almost anything that they say is going to get twisted as some sort of "microaggression" - I mean, I've already had someone tell me that, because Stewie forgot to reiterate that OOC attacks are unacceptable in one post, they felt like his comment that it happened after Johnny's antagonistic comments meant that he was justifying what happened. What are they supposed to do except not only be the bigger person by not responding to the bait, but also play damage control by basically not responding at all?

 

Unfortunately, your comment reads less as sincerity and more as acknowledgement that nothing NG could have done would have changed your mind. Honestly, at least folks like BMTH and Masta haven't even pretended like they're giving NG an honest chance, which is a tiny bit more respectable than this nonsense.

 

Man, you run NG's PR department about as well as everyone not named stewie

[Neo Uruk]

18 hours ago, lilweirdward said:

 

Kicking a non-gov member who made one (and, as far as I'm aware and have been around, first) mistake, immediately admitted to their mistake, attempted to apologize to the aggrieved parties in private, and has been nothing but remorseful since does not really seem like a fair punishment to me. Every situation is different, and I appreciate that some people might handle certain situations as a leader differently than whoever is actually making those decisions in the moment - I would remind you again that your own ally doesn't seem to think NG should have apologized at all. Personally, I feel like NG has done the right thing by owning up to what happened and not making excuses for it, and I'm willing to give them time to prove that they won't make the same mistake again.

Lol they sat in backchannels and made the post after being told not to by mutual friends

 

There was more than enough room to cool down before they realized there were consequences for making light of someone's rl situation

[Tevron]

The reasons why people don't take NG's apology here very seriously are they:

 

a) Know NG's history of OOC attacks

b) Noticed that Dane0 is still an alliance manager in-game, an advisor, is masked as govt on NG's discord server, etc. His name has even been featured on treaties recently -- including that very thread.

c) Noticed that NG members, including at least one NG govt member outside of Dane0 posted in direct proximity of the offending posts and did nothing to disagree or condemn his actions.

Just as the NG tradition has always been, Dane0 will be proclaimed not a government member but retain all the privileges that can be expected of a government member down to even signing treaties. It's frankly despicable that this continues to go on and a few paragraphs of text don't cut it. NG has driven someone away from enjoyment and hurt them. And I doubt it ends here.

 

I know that I'm probably going to be leaving this world very soon because I don't want to be targeted. NG already clearly considers me an enemy or antagonistic force against them. What they did to JA -- a former friend? I expect they would show much less mercy to someone they have barely spoken to. And to me, that isn't worth it. Politics be damned.

 

[Martialis]

[citizenkane]

1 hour ago, Tevron said:

The reasons why people don't take NG's apology here very seriously are they:

 

a) Know NG's history of OOC attacks

b) Noticed that Dane0 is still an alliance manager in-game, an advisor, is masked as govt on NG's discord server, etc. His name has even been featured on treaties recently -- including that very thread.

c) Noticed that NG members, including at least one NG govt member outside of Dane0 posted in direct proximity of the offending posts and did nothing to disagree or condemn his actions.

Just as the NG tradition has always been, Dane0 will be proclaimed not a government member but retain all the privileges that can be expected of a government member down to even signing treaties. It's frankly despicable that this continues to go on and a few paragraphs of text don't cut it. NG has driven someone away from enjoyment and hurt them. And I doubt it ends here.

 

I know that I'm probably going to be leaving this world very soon because I don't want to be targeted. NG already clearly considers me an enemy or antagonistic force against them. What they did to JA -- a former friend? I expect they would show much less mercy to someone they have barely spoken to. And to me, that isn't worth it. Politics be damned.

 

o7

[DeathAdder]

On 5/31/2021 at 10:46 AM, Tevron said:

The reasons why people don't take NG's apology here very seriously are they:

 

a) Know NG's history of OOC attacks

b) Noticed that Dane0 is still an alliance manager in-game, an advisor, is masked as govt on NG's discord server, etc. His name has even been featured on treaties recently -- including that very thread.

c) Noticed that NG members, including at least one NG govt member outside of Dane0 posted in direct proximity of the offending posts and did nothing to disagree or condemn his actions.

Just as the NG tradition has always been, Dane0 will be proclaimed not a government member but retain all the privileges that can be expected of a government member down to even signing treaties. It's frankly despicable that this continues to go on and a few paragraphs of text don't cut it. NG has driven someone away from enjoyment and hurt them. And I doubt it ends here.

 

I know that I'm probably going to be leaving this world very soon because I don't want to be targeted. NG already clearly considers me an enemy or antagonistic force against them. What they did to JA -- a former friend? I expect they would show much less mercy to someone they have barely spoken to. And to me, that isn't worth it. Politics be damned.

 

 

Pretty much this. NG has done this kind of stuff time and time again and it boggles the mind how quick people are to come to their defense time and time again.

 

When does it end?

 

When does the community finally say enough is enough while the mods & admin do nothing to enforce their own rules about vicious OOC attacks?

 

This should never have happened, to JA or otherwise. Attacking someone for RL problems they are dealing with is as low as you can go, full stop. This is supposed to be a place for people to get away from their RL problems, not to be targeted. This is why I've always refused to share personal details with this community because it has been an ongoing event since I first rolled and, contrary to Jerdge's opinion of "let the mods deal with it" I've never seen satisfactory action taken to remove those types of people from this game. Not once. They leave when they get bored and find a new game to harass people there.

 

Those who think NG is even remotely sorry for what has transpired should stop deluding yourselves. They aren't. They never have been sorry for their OOC attacks and they never will be.

 

That is why they aren't in here, falling all over themselves to tell everyone "No, you're wrong!" or posting stupid memes, like they do in every other thread that even remotely has to do with them.

 

I warned TIE and COBRA that they would be used by NG to get what NG wants and then they'd be thrown under the bus, used and abused. They didn't want to believe me then, but, my words were proven to be true.

Edited June 2, 2021 by DeathAdder

[Stewie]

1 hour ago, DeathAdder said:

 

Pretty much this. NG has done this kind of stuff time and time again and it boggles the mind how quick people are to come to their defense time and time again.

 

When does it end?

 

When does the community finally say enough is enough while the mods & admin do nothing to enforce their own rules about vicious OOC attacks?

 

This should never have happened, to JA or otherwise. Attacking someone for RL problems they are dealing with is as low as you can go, full stop. This is supposed to be a place for people to get away from their RL problems, not to be targeted. This is why I've always refused to share personal details with this community because it has been an ongoing event since I first rolled and, contrary to Jerdge's opinion of "let the mods deal with it" I've never seen satisfactory action taken to remove those types of people from this game. Not once. They leave when they get bored and find a new game to harass people there.

 

Those who think NG is even remotely sorry for what has transpired should stop deluding yourselves. They aren't. They never have been sorry for their OOC attacks and they never will be.

 

That is why they aren't in here, falling all over themselves to tell everyone "No, you're wrong!" or posting stupid memes, like they do in every other thread that even remotely has to do with them.

 

I warned TIE and COBRA that they would be used by NG to get what NG wants and then they'd be thrown under the bus, used and abused. They didn't want to believe me then, but, my words were proven to be true.

 

You make a point that we aren't here posting memes or making no U comments.  Perhaps that is because we aren't the alliance you paint us out to be.  Of Non Grata c. 2011-2016 there are less than 33% of the 73 members we have who were in the AA from that era.  Our AA these days are mostly former Leaders of alliances we have been allied to, or those we have warred against.

 

My government and I don't feel that engaging with this thread and the various baits placed will lead to constructive dialogue. I told my members not to engage with this thread and I have nothing further to add.   

 

Non Grata are currently working on a government restructure and implementing changes mentioned during this thread ahead of our 10th birthday next week.

 

My inbox is open for discussions from anyone who wants to discuss any of the points in this thread and our points of view.

 

I will not be posting again in this thread.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Stewie

[DeathAdder]

Yes, yes. More meaningless acts on paper that will ultimately mean nothing. Been there, seen that. Not holding my breath on any meaningful change.

 

If you were actually genuine, you would have remained silent and just posted up your so-called 'restructure and changes'.

 

This is just more vague promises. Dane0 and the other 20% (most of whom are the problems for your alliance) will still remain there. Likely as management. Likely as gov that isn't gov. and definitely as the offenders they have always been.

 

Thanks for responding though, sweetheart. Nice to see I can still bring you out to play. x3

Edited June 2, 2021 by DeathAdder

[W_A_R]

Perhaps an unaligned independent perspective. 

 

I was not witness to the original OOC attack, or across the circumstances.  OOC attacks  should never occur and should have consequences.

 

Nevertheless I was on NG Discord when Mochi's approached NG afterwards. 

 

I believe Stewie's follow up apology is sincere and genuine, and there is a desire to move on.

 

While I do not know JA (I may have in my earlier more active times) I hope he can be informed of NG's contrition and can either return or remember better times.

2c worth

[jerdge]

20 hours ago, DeathAdder said:

[...]

 

When does the community finally say enough is enough while the mods & admin do nothing to enforce their own rules about vicious OOC attacks?

 

This should never have happened, to JA or otherwise. Attacking someone for RL problems they are dealing with is as low as you can go, full stop. This is supposed to be a place for people to get away from their RL problems, not to be targeted. This is why I've always refused to share personal details with this community because it has been an ongoing event since I first rolled and, contrary to Jerdge's opinion of "let the mods deal with it" I've never seen satisfactory action taken to remove those types of people from this game. Not once. They leave when they get bored and find a new game to harass people there.

[...]

 

Your description of what (although not always) usually happens is basically accurate.
It has to be added that the community as a whole never really did anything substantial either. IG action in particular has almost always been lacking - because treaties and pixels - and when there has been any it didn't accomplish anything.

 

[jerdge]

Double post because, mobile site...

 

When some/many players solicited/demanded action from the Mods, in those few cases we saw some consequences. If most of the community applied social pressure (on an OOC/RL level) we'd probably be effective, too, but that almost never happened, if it ever happened at all. Again, treaties and pixels, because almost no one actually cares about the RL-IG divide.

[Mogar]

I am curious to know if I will also be receiving apologies for those in this thread decrying OOC attacks for their own OOC attacks against me repeatedly on discord and on the forums on occasion, I know the answer to this of course but the hypocrisy isn't lost at least.

[Jason8]

On 5/30/2021 at 7:12 PM, lilweirdward said:

Personally, I feel like NG has done the right thing by owning up to what happened and not making excuses for it, and I'm willing to give them time to prove that they won't make the same mistake again.

Not sure if you're aware, but we've already been there, done that.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.

 

6 hours ago, Mogar said:

I am curious to know if I will also be receiving apologies for those in this thread decrying OOC attacks for their own OOC attacks against me repeatedly on discord and on the forums on occasion, I know the answer to this of course but the hypocrisy isn't lost at least.

Have you had issues with Kashmir members?  If so, come to me and discuss them.  Tiki, Kapleo, Martialis, masta, and everyone else in Boognish leadership would love for you to come to them as well if you're having issues in this regard.  Be the change you want to see, right?

[Lord Hitchcock]

Well well well, Non Grata finally realizing they are despicable.

 

Waiting for that Caustic to apologize for all the hurtful things he’s ever said about me...

[Bionic redhead]

9 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

Well well well, Non Grata finally realizing they are despicable.

 

Waiting for that Caustic to apologize for all the hurtful things he’s ever said about me...

 

Why would he be expected to apologise for telling the truth?

[HeroofTime55]

19 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

Well well well, Non Grata finally realizing they are despicable.

 

Waiting for that Caustic to apologize for all the hurtful things he’s ever said about me...

Oh man, I was wondering what this s***show was missing, it didn't feel complete.  It as an LH post!  That's what was missing!