Official IRON Announcement

[Hereno]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340224877' post='2990485']
This is a point clearly missed by most folks in here. Just because he told some people he was going to tell GLoF is was a "joke" the fact is he didn't actually do that. So the whole premise of this being a joke just evaporates into a CYA sort of thing in my eyes.
[/quote]

I'm still waiting for a member of your government to tell me why you ignored our attempt at asking you who to send the tech to.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Hereno

[jraenar]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340224953' post='2990486']
I'm still waiting for a member of your government to tell me why you ignored our attempt at asking you who to send the tech to.
[/quote]
Are you talking for attempts from the first 24 hours, or from the second 24 hours? Stop pretending that you have not been stalling this entire time.

[xoindotnler]

I'm still waiting till some one tells me it was a joke AND for someone to apology for it. I feel so left out .

Edited June 20, 2012 by xoindotnler

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='WhitEarendur' timestamp='1340224421' post='2990472']
MK and Umb should take note of what a CB looks like.
[/quote]

nah we're good thanks

[berbers]

[quote name='Melancholy Culkin' timestamp='1340214381' post='2990257']
So NATO are you going to defend your ally?
[/quote]

No matter what, by the end of this war we will have defended an ally.

>.>

<.<

[Indian Bob]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1340224501' post='2990476']
A vote is called and at the end of the time period for the vote, majority rules. Speaking as someone who has been in both alliances who have "government leaders" and those that don't, it really isn't that hard to figure out how it works.



Some will say it is unfair because it IS unfair.

Regardless, I really don't see IRON's DOW against LSF in under 24 hours after LSF agreed to terms being about organizational structure. Many alliances would have issues with meeting those demands within under 24 hours.

This is what an alliance - formal leadership or not - would have to do to comply:

1. Organize 4 different people who have aid slots available to send 50 tech out.
2. A person has to leave the AA (which did happen) and because apparently THAT wasn't enough someone who has admin ability has to magically infer that the person's mask has to be changed as well because IRON has decided that just leaving the AA wouldn't be enough and also didn't feel the need to tell anyone.
3. Write an apology and post it on OWF. Oh, and it has to be "sincere" enough...whatever that means in the context of an "apology" as a peace term. No humor allowed anyway.
4. All under 24 hours - but IRON isn't saying that so as far as the alliance "leadership" knows, they have more time.
[/quote]

All of this could have been accomplished within 15 minutes after the terms were accepted. But as evidenced by the private channel logs presented by Henero, they were still arguing about what to do after the terms had already been agreed to. Especially since there was a guy willing to send the tech directly in the private channel.

Step one, when agreeing to send FOUR aid packets of tech, maybe ask who they should be sent to. It's not like it's a massive list.

Step two, can't control when the person leaves the AA, but getting an admin to remove a mask should not take 18 hours, that's why we have email and such. I've never been gov at any point but I certainly could get in touch with someone who could have done it. Saying forum access does not equal membership completely flies in the face of the accepted definition of what a ghost is.

Step three, write apology and post it: LSF apologizes for condoning the impersonation of a sovereign alliance's government for the purpose of inciting war.

That took me 2.5 minutes and only that long because I deleted it twice and tried to come up with a simple concise statement.

Hell, the only thing that "might" have taken more than 18 hours was the nation leaving the AA and that was done on time! These guys failed at all the easy stuff.

[ccabal86]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340220163' post='2990399']
Yes, Opti acted badly. Yes, he should have apologized. He was keen on doing so (I could give logs but who cares, at this point). However, IRON wanted all of LSF to apologize for the actions of a less-than-24-hours member. Fine, we gave them an apology. Was it half-assed? Sure, we took a jab at them when we did it. If war is the new standard for what the enemy perceives to be half-assed apologies, I certainly expect that nobody will be giving any in the future.
[/quote]

No, no, no. You didn't get declared on because of the half-assed apology. You got declared on, because one of your members impersonated IRON government and attempted to trick our allies into declaring war, and then you, as an alliance, failed to comply with our conditions for settling the issue peacefully. As I said [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=111638&view=findpost&p=2989897"]here[/url], we do not care if he was joking or if he was going to rectify the situation later (which i seriously doubt). Such an action will not be tolerated.

[quote]
You want us to be sorry for what? A guy got high and had a bit of fun on IRC. Several alliances have seen their members do it in the past, some of them being actually in favor of this new war. I hope that you guys stay on top for a while for your members are keen on doing such shenanigans as well. The LSF, as a whole, wasn't sorry. We felt it was business between Opti and IRON. We still presented an apology but decided to include a jab in it.[/quote]

Like it or not, you, as an alliance are to a degree responsible for your members' actions. If a member of yours goes and does something really stupid, you will be faced with a decision: you can either stand by him (sanctioning his actions), or you can distance yourself from him. You took your pick, welcome to the consequences.

[quote]
However, the rest is bollocks. Our admin didn't unmask him in less than 24 hours? That's possible. Opti still left us, left our AA, left our private channel and applied to another AA. I didn't know our internal administration was of such importance to IRON that we had a 24 hours timetable to actually unmask the guy (as a sidenote, that's purely OOC because IC, he clearly left us).[/quote]

I guess we'd have to take your word on this. Unfortunately after your actions in the past few days, we have little reason for that.

[quote]
As for the tech, we tried querying you today. To no avail. Again, I must say, I'm surprised at the short timetable, given that you didn't give us the links (who was supposed to receive the tech was never clear, you first joked that it should be forwarded to NoR). Didn't know that it was a "24 hours or bust" thing, excuse us for only sending you a query today.[/quote]

Maybe if you negotiated in good faith, and wasn't hellbent on making the process as difficult for everyone involved as possible, you'd have gotten more than 24 hours. Our patience ran out sooner than you originally expected.

[quote]
Now, on to those who cheer like IRON is going to stomp us: we're already fully engaged. When we say this war means nothing to us is precisely because we already have all of our slots filled by Nordreich. IRON wants in simply to draw our allies out: fine. It won't happen. And no ammount of ridiculous pressure will make it happen. We're the Left. This isn't the first time we have to fight outnumbered and for long a period of time.[/quote]

If we wanted to draw your allies out, we would have said "$%&@ it" and declared right off the bat. Instead we went out of our way to resolve this peacefully.

[quote]
As a sidenote, IRON, I hope that you'll do better than last war and find a way not to lose 26% of your membership.
[/quote]

I know it's hard to wrap your mind around this, but we're always happy when an opportunity comes to winnow the chaff. We have no use for deserters, inactives and cowards. when all is said and done, only the truly dedicated remain, and our core grows stronger once more.

[Rhizoctonia]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340224877' post='2990485']
This is a point clearly missed by most folks in here. Just because he told some people he was going to tell GLoF is was a "joke" the fact is he didn't actually do that. So the whole premise of this being a joke just evaporates into a CYA sort of thing in my eyes.
[/quote]

Coulda,Shoulda,Woulda, but they didn't. Maybe they will learn from this mistake

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340224953' post='2990486']
I'm still waiting for a member of your government to tell me why you ignored our attempt at asking you who to send the tech to.
[/quote]

It seems as though you already knew 100 tech to MCRABT on Monday:
[quote][20:09] <&Optimistic[LSF]> they demanded 100 tech for MCRABT and GLOF [/quote]
As for GLoF's tech, that is between you and them. Did you try to contact them?

On the topic of contact to deliver tech, this attempt to contact us occurred after the @#$% IRON IN THE @#$ message that you sent our way loud and clear was discovered. At that point, we had enough of your collective shens.

[quote][15:54] <Unkajo[NG]> http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=111638&st=0&p=2989297&#entry2989297
[15:55] <Unkajo[NG]> did you guys get the secret message?
02[15:55] * Vixen (amnesa@coldfront-HOSTMASK REMOVED) Quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
[15:56] <@Samus> no?
[15:56] <Unkajo[NG]> It says @#$% ION
[15:56] <Unkajo[NG]> IRON*
[15:56] <Unkajo[NG]> First letter of every sentence
[15:57] <Unkajo[NG]> It actually says @#$% IRON in the @#$

[16:16] <Sabcat> You around at the moment? I want to talk tech delivery[/quote]

I understand folks trying to latch on to single incidents such as Opti "joking," the apology being a "slight jab," and then you trying to contact us to deliver tech after being found out, but what we have here is a pattern of behavior that adds up to an overt "F You" to IRON. You can try to downplay each individual stop along this train ride, but the pattern is there nonetheless.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1340214139' post='2990245']
And because the apology was half assed and the reps were late, this now blows up. Real fair.
[/quote]

The "apology" was a $%&@ you message. Sorry, but they've been trying and trying to get IRON to declare on them, and they finally go it.

[USMC123]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340224877' post='2990485']
This is a point clearly missed by most folks in here. Just because he told some people he was going to tell GLoF is was a "joke" the fact is he didn't actually do that. So the whole premise of this being a joke just evaporates into a CYA sort of thing in my eyes.
[/quote]

CYA before anyone goes crazy about it, when nobody actually thinks IRON is going to go ballistic about it? Please. For being a bunch of idiots, LSF sure seems to be pretty smart about these kinds of things. Also: ofc he didn't say it was a joke, it never got that far before someone figured it out. These attempts at trying to prove hostile intent (hell, at this point it's not even trying to prove there was hostile intent, it's trying to prove their COULD have been hostile intent - which again, there wasn't) are really poor.

It seriously wouldn't have been hard at all for Opti to hide himself in a way that wouldn't implicate LSF, don't you think he would have done so if he actually had hostile intent?

[Alterego]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1340222034' post='2990421']


Apology:

Looked like an apology to me. As I've said elsewhere, OWF "apologies" are NEVER sincere and anyone who demands an apology as part of a term for peace (either before a war or after) knows better. It's about power. It's "see what we made that alliance do" and not about REALLY needing the other person to say "I'm sorry" so that you feel better. "Sincere" apologies are when someone says "I'm sorry" without being asked.


[/quote]

If you tell any alliance to go f themselves in a public apology to them you will find yourself at war. You might not mean it from your heart and just want to avoid a kicking but what they did was ask to be attacked after being granted leniency.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340226179' post='2990502']On the topic of contact to deliver tech, this attempt to contact us occurred after the @#$% IRON IN THE @#$ message that you sent our way loud and clear was discovered. At that point, we had enough of your collective shens.[/quote]

So you ignored it on purpose because we made fun of you in the apology you forced us to give you at gunpoint, and you wanted blood. Finally, some honesty. It didn't matter what we had done or not had done, what mattered was that you didn't like our apology and were gonna stick it to us because we hurt your ego. Now we can finally stop pretending that you actually think or thought we were being dishonest or reneging on our agreement, and instead focus on how pathetic the largest alliance on Bob is because a sub-1m NS alliance wouldn't bend over backwards to them without giving them some backtalk with it. Tell me: how does the immense power feel?

[berbers]

I was idling in that channel and re-read the entire convo after this happened. Now I am not passing judgement on this action in any way, was not involved, but when I went through the convo, it seemed to be more in jest than anything else. They even talked about how an unregistered nick wouldn't fool anyone.

It doesn't matter, IRON feels they have a CB, that's really all that matters.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='BloodFury' timestamp='1340224096' post='2990468']
This is pretty FUBAR if I must say. I thought people realized that LSF was a Democratic alliance and that not everything could be solved in a day. A week should have at least been given to allow for the LSF people to weigh their opinions on the matter and take a vote. I imagine any other democratic alliance would have been given the respect and at least some time to discuss and vote on the matter. Not everyone lives, eats, and breaths their life around paying bills, collecting taxes, and spending every second with this community.
[/quote]
You are incredibly naive if you believe this. For one thing, Umbrella is a democracy and they can make decisions rapidly just fine. Virtually nobody would ever give a whole stinking week for the alliance to decide what it was going to do on a highly contentious issue worth rolling on.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Sardonic

[Anarquista]

[quote name='ccabal86' timestamp='1340226112' post='2990500']
If a member of yours goes and does something really stupid, you will be faced with a decision: you can either stand by him (sanctioning his actions), or you can distance yourself from him.
[/quote]
false dilemma

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1340226179' post='2990502']
It seems as though you already knew 100 tech to MCRABT on Monday:

As for GLoF's tech, that is between you and them. Did you try to contact them?

On the topic of contact to deliver tech, this attempt to contact us occurred after the @#$% IRON IN THE @#$ message that you sent our way loud and clear was discovered. At that point, we had enough of your collective shens.



I understand folks trying to latch on to single incidents such as Opti "joking," the apology being a "slight jab," and then you trying to contact us to deliver tech after being found out, but what we have here is a pattern of behavior that adds up to an overt "F You" to IRON. You can try to downplay each individual stop along this train ride, but the pattern is there nonetheless.[/quote]
You DoWed 18 hours after the apology went up saying we hadn't paid you or expelled Opti.

Opti had been expelled and you had been contacted after 12 hours to be sure that we were going to send to the right persons. You do remember joking about forwarding that tech to NoR?

There, here's you contradicting yourself and your own war declaration:
[quote][19:18] <&Optimistic[LSF]> oh hi MCRABT[IRON]
[19:18] <&Optimistic[LSF]> I don't remember in the reparation terms
[19:18] <&Optimistic[LSF]> the bit where you said you could attack me?
[19:18] <&Optimistic[LSF]> would you mind directing me to that section?
02[19:18] * J[away] (Jgoods@redacted) Quit (Ping timeout)
[19:19] <MCRABT[IRON]> Well as your no longer a member of LSF[/quote]
That's you acknowledging that Opti wasn't a LSF member anymore, one hour and twenty minutes after we posted the apology. Want me to post your own words from the other thread where you acknowledge our apology?

The only thing that's missing is the tech. We queried you multiple times to get targets and confirm that you wanted it and not anybody else (since you had given conflicting signals about NoR). You ignored us.

One of our members did a mistake, sure thing. But don't try to lie yourself out of this. We upheld our part of the bargain. You just wanted the war.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1340226890' post='2990512']For one thing, Umbrella is a democracy and they can make decisions rapidly just fine.
[/quote]

Sardonic betrays the fact he has never been a member of Umbrella.

[ccabal86]

[quote name='Anarquista' timestamp='1340226920' post='2990513']
false dilemma
[/quote]

Because?

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1340226982' post='2990516']
Sardonic betrays the fact he has never been a member of Umbrella.
[/quote]
He'd have quoted TOP as a democracy but TOP speed jokes do exist for a reason.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Anarquista' timestamp='1340226920' post='2990513']
false dilemma
[/quote]
Not really, though I'd say it's more "recognize what he did, retain him as a member, make ammends for him" vs "welp, seeya buddy".

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1340226982' post='2990516']
Sardonic betrays the fact he has never been a member of Umbrella.
[/quote]
Ok, *certain* non-FA or internal structural decisions rapidly .

Regardless, my point is that you would not putter about arguing with each other for a week over some warrable action conducted by a member.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Sardonic

[Salmia]

[quote name='Illustrious' timestamp='1340217100' post='2990339']
Really? You couldn't have taken a minute out of your time and instead of posting this check his AA and find out that he is telling the truth?

As for the topic on hand, to me it looks like IRON wanted a shot at LSF anyways and LSF made it easier for them.
[/quote]

This has been said before and it is the logs in the OP (you might want to reread what is in front of your face). At the time that we approached both INT and LSF at the start of this incidence 3 days ago, Optimistic was on INT's AA. Both LSF and INT confirmed him as a LSF member. So, no, his AA being INT and his mask being LSF member do not jive with explusion given the previous facts.

Why would we want to roll them for political expedience? We didn't go through all these diplomatic processes and deal with LSF just for fun. If we wanted to roll them, why wouldn't we have on day one? It might be just a shocker that *gasp* we wanted to resolve this and the solution was spit upon by every step.


[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340217527' post='2990345']
We tried to send them tech, and Opti was off the AA. You can't fault us that MCRABT ignored Sabcat and that we have a lack of Admins. In the NoR situation, it was clear that we just wanted a war, and nobody from LSF argued otherwise. It is also clear that in this case, we did try to avoid war and give in to IRON's ridiculous demands.



IRON has much more motivation to start something with LSF than LSF has to start something with IRON. We went at NoR because of who they are, and also because of our history together. Why would we then go after IRON? Opti acted alone and without the approval of LSF as an alliance. We defended him and negotiated on his behalf because he was a member of our alliance and that's what alliances do. It didn't mean that we agreed with him, as you can see by all of the evidence otherwise. Any animosity towards IRON from LSF at this point is from them strong-arming us and taking advantage of our situation, as I said before.
[/quote]

Oh, yes, we're really strong arming you with 200 tech, an insincere apology and trying to work this out with you at every step. Meanwhile Optimistic had SOPS in your channel, constantly trolling us, an apology that contains words I will not repeat, and a last minute dodged attempt after your apology is revealed to be *not* an apology! Wow, what a shocker. Where have we gone after you? I didn't even know LSF existed until this whole incident and would have cared less. I was happily chewing my popcorn, watching other events. But no, we have had our ally attempted to be brought into war, not once, but twice by two different LSF members. This "joke" was never informed to GLoF or MCRABT. Doesn't sound very funny to me. Particularly not since said conversation involved trying to provoke a war.


[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340220163' post='2990399']
Now, let's get a few facts straight.

Yes, Opti acted badly. Yes, he should have apologized. He was keen on doing so (I could give logs but who cares, at this point). However, IRON wanted all of LSF to apologize for the actions of a less-than-24-hours member. Fine, we gave them an apology. Was it half-assed? Sure, we took a jab at them when we did it. If war is the new standard for what the enemy perceives to be half-assed apologies, I certainly expect that nobody will be giving any in the future.

You want us to be sorry for what? A guy got high and had a bit of fun on IRC. Several alliances have seen their members do it in the past, some of them being actually in favor of this new war. I hope that you guys stay on top for a while for your members are keen on doing such shenanigans as well. The LSF, as a whole, wasn't sorry. We felt it was business between Opti and IRON. We still presented an apology but decided to include a jab in it.

Now, if that is enough to justify war, then so be it.

However, the rest is bollocks. Our admin didn't unmask him in less than 24 hours? That's possible. Opti still left us, left our AA, left our private channel and applied to another AA. I didn't know our internal administration was of such importance to IRON that we had a 24 hours timetable to actually unmask the guy (as a sidenote, that's purely OOC because IC, he clearly left us).

As for the tech, we tried querying you today. To no avail. Again, I must say, I'm surprised at the short timetable, given that you didn't give us the links (who was supposed to receive the tech was never clear, you first joked that it should be forwarded to NoR). Didn't know that it was a "24 hours or bust" thing, excuse us for only sending you a query today.


Now, on to those who cheer like IRON is going to stomp us: we're already fully engaged. When we say this war means nothing to us is precisely because we already have all of our slots filled by Nordreich. IRON wants in simply to draw our allies out: fine. It won't happen. And no ammount of ridiculous pressure will make it happen. We're the Left. This isn't the first time we have to fight outnumbered and for long a period of time.

As a sidenote, IRON, I hope that you'll do better than last war and find a way not to lose 26% of your membership.
[/quote]

We want to draw your allies out? That is clearly why we have attempted diplomacy with you for the last 3 days rather than just rolling you after confirming Optimistic was a LSF member. That is clearly why when we could've just rolled Opti, since you're right, your slots are full with NoR, who would stop us from hitting Optimistic straight out? Oh wait, we actually attempted to work with both you and INT to resolve this. Oh wait, that isn't how IRON behaves and we actually try to conduct diplomacy despite the fact each attempt has resulted in dung being blown back in our faces. At some point, maybe *gasp* the hidden message in the apology and a last ditch attempt to send tech reparations after everything we have already encountered with you was enough to cause a war. So here is the war.


[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1340222034' post='2990421']
IRON makes a deals for peace and the DAY after they are agreed to (not a lot of time for any alliances to complete peace terms) declares war.

When defeated alliances don't follow through with their reparations, it's considered a good reason for war. What happens when alliances make deals and agree not to declare war as a result of the deal and then do so anyway?

About the agreement:

Apology:

Looked like an apology to me. As I've said elsewhere, OWF "apologies" are NEVER sincere and anyone who demands an apology as part of a term for peace (either before a war or after) knows better. It's about power. It's "see what we made that alliance do" and not about REALLY needing the other person to say "I'm sorry" so that you feel better. "Sincere" apologies are when someone says "I'm sorry" without being asked.

Tech:

Getting 200 tech moved as an alliance already involved in a war within one night is a little much. Also, I don't recall their being any mention of a short time frame.

Person kicked out:

Go check any random alliances forum. I bet there are many many people who are technically still "members" of many other alliances based on forum membership. Sorry, but THIS example of LSF supposedly doing something wrong is way way way beyond what is reasonable.

And of course regardless you give one day for compliance?



One day of not getting something done is NOT proof that they didn't follow through.

IRON, either make a deal or declare war, it's a one or the other situation. Not both.

IRON messed it up.
[/quote]

LSF messed it up, not IRON here. I have addressed these arguments above. Logic follows when attempting diplomatic interactions, one actually tries to interact diplomatically. Every interaction we have had with LSF has been a far cry from this. He was on the INT AA when we first contacted LSF yet LSF still confirmed as a member. As hopping AAs is a regular feature of war these days and he has still been wearing the LSF tag on IRC afterwards, there was no change to indicate he was expelled other than the so called apology. The so called apology that also contained a message that made it rather clear how LSF continued to spit on any diplomatic allowance we attempted to give. Enough is enough at a point. It was enough.


[quote name='Crownguard' timestamp='1340222178' post='2990423']
Not that it is all that relevant to people, but a lowly nub has a question:

If Optimistic/Sabcat/random LSF member, as a member of LSF, represents all his government by his actions....

Does Chairman Hal, by his callout on the OWF, represent all of Valhalla by his own?

If a member of an alliance is considered representative of that alliance, how exactly does this faux moral outrage and war cheerleading work exactly? I don't deny LSF did something that was unwise (indeed foolish), but the pots calling the kettle black is a bit strange.
[/quote]

ChairmanHal is clearly a member of Valhalla but retired government. He is not posing as anyone but himself. He didn't attempt to get anyone to go to war by masquerading as someone else. This isn't faux moral outrage and the difference is a far cry. He went through the effort of trying to actually hide his IP, it was the 2nd incident trying to incite our allies to war we were uninvolved in, and it was beyond simply posting an opinion of yourself.

[wickedj]

Yes, Hal is a terrible person and you should roll Valhalla.

[ccabal86]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1340227172' post='2990519']
"recognize what he did, retain him as a member, make ammends for him"
[/quote]

Actually, that's a third option LSF could have taken

[Chaoshawk]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1340227374' post='2990521']
Yes, Hal is a terrible person and you should roll Valhalla.
[/quote]
I like where this is heading.