Official IRON Announcement

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340232599' post='2990691']
I suppose you're going to keep spamming until I give you a response, so here you go. I hope that the combined over 18m NS of IRON and NoR is enough to finally wipe that smile off of those smug ancom faces.r
[/quote]
NS stacked against you is of your choosing. LSF members chose to stir drama with IRON and NoR. We didnt seek you guys out.

Edited June 20, 2012 by shahenshah

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340234460' post='2990733']
Read what I posted again and see if you comprehend better this time. I am genuinely curious about this brain damage correlation. We used to talk regularly and you were at least ten times smarter than this.[/quote]
Keeping it to a respectful level would be appreciated.

Again, my point stands:
One hour after the apology, you acknowledged that Opti had left the LSF. At that time, he was still masked on our boards.

Now, you claim that the subtext in the apology forced you to reevaluate your stance. His masking didn't change over that time period. The only thing that changed was the fact that you realized about the subtext.

Therefore, Opti's status has changed solely because you suddenly didn't like our apology anymore and it was politically convenient for your DoW to paint us as having honored none of the terms we had agreed upon.

Even if it meant contradicting yourself.

[Dom Zak]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340233645' post='2990719']
Okay so, if I get this right:
1)You acknowledged Opti wasn't a member of LSF anymore;
BUT
2)Since our apology had a subtext that insulted you, he was back as a member of LSF.

That makes a lot of sense.
[/quote]
Responding to your first point, Yes MCRABT did say "so your no longer a member of LSF" this is true, however he said it because he assumed that the situation was handled. He was off the AA but that doesn't really mean he isn't a member until he is demasked on the board. This was not done. It doesn't take 18 hours to demask someone. You knew that this situation was very real and could potential turn bad yet you never demasked him, somebody that had already applied to another alliance. Saying that the alliance he applied to was your ally INT does not matter; he was still masked as a member on YOUR board indicating that he was still considered a member. MCRABT's words were taken wholeheartedly out of context and I can see where that could happen, however now that he and other councilors have told you what he did mean, it should have rectified and made your claims null and void.

As to your point 2, it is null. At that point after the subliminal message was discovered, it went pass the "unsanctioned" acts of Opti to incite war between GLoF and NoR by impersonating an IRON Councillor, it was that LSF was spitting in IRON's face, not for the first time within days, but to follow the previous insults and asshattery. We give you a deadline, you ignored it. We accept your apology only to find out that it was a slap in the face. Once you see that we're in no mood to play games, you scurry to gather tech to send to us. You had no plan to indulge us with diplomacy, no plan to get this over with in a timely manner however you did have a plan backed by several active members in LSF, by which it seems are recognized by your own alliance as a "government", to let Opti trick GLoF into attacking NoR. Now, it may be stretching it a bit... or not, to say that what Opti did was indeed espionage and was sanctioned by the members of your alliance.

Furthermore, in the apology thread Hereno proceeded to bait IRON and say that we would not get the tech that you agreed to give unless we tore it from your cold dead hands. Now, does this sound like a situation that could have been avoided easily? Sure, however you had no intention to do that.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Indian Bob' timestamp='1340226068' post='2990499']
All of this could have been accomplished within 15 minutes after the terms were accepted[/quote]

LOL! Anyone who has ever held a position of leadership in an alliance after reading that one statement knows that either you lie and know better or have never actually been in government.

Even in alliances with a clear hierarchy, the person who made the deal has to order others to do what is necessary to meet the demands. Some alliances are better than others, but there is a certain amount of having to figure out how to "heard cats" that comes with the organizing of any deal. There is a reason alliances normally allow a reasonable amount of time to get terms completed. I've made peace deals before on behalf of the alliance I've been a part of and not once has any other alliance demanded that the deal be completed within a day. They few times I've managed it, we're praised for the fast response and thanked.

The only term that reasonably could have been completed in 15 minutes is the apology.
"On behalf of the alliance of, (insert name), we are sorry." No doubt it would have gotten criticism for being too short but it could have been written and posted within 15 minutes.

What I think happened here (and I admit that I don't actually know - but this is how it appears to me) is that some people in IRON decided to try to work things out and a deal was made and then for whatever reason (probably as a result of the badly written apology) they were under pressure to declare war and just threw together reason why LSF didn't meet the terms and hoped that people wouldn't notice how unfair IRON looks as a result, since LSF isn't very popular at the moment anyway.

For the most part, it worked.

Edited June 20, 2012 by White Chocolate

[Aggierebel96]

Burn em' down IRON

o/ IRON

[WarriorConcept]

I wasn't aware IRON controlled who had what masks on your forums, LSF. I thought Admin said that was a big no no?

[D34th]

While the CB is legit(I laughed with the apology thing), I have to ask: There is a clause in LSF-The INT treaty who says that The International is obliged to defend unless the attacker has a legit CB? If not the fact that the CB is legit isn't an excuse to fail to honor a treaty for the third time in the same month.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Dom Zak' timestamp='1340235236' post='2990742']
Responding to your first point, Yes MCRABT did say "so your no longer a member of LSF" this is true, however he said it because he assumed that the situation was handled. He was off the AA but that doesn't really mean he isn't a member until he is demasked on the board. This was not done. It doesn't take 18 hours to demask someone. You knew that this situation was very real and could potential turn bad yet you never demasked him, somebody that had already applied to another alliance. Saying that the alliance he applied to was your ally INT does not matter; he was still masked as a member on YOUR board indicating that he was still considered a member. MCRABT's words were taken wholeheartedly out of context and I can see where that could happen, however now that he and other councilors have told you what he did mean, it should have rectified and made your claims null and void.

As to your point 2, it is null. At that point after the subliminal message was discovered, it went pass the "unsanctioned" acts of Opti to incite war between GLoF and NoR by impersonating an IRON Councillor, it was that LSF was spitting in IRON's face, not for the first time within days, but to follow the previous insults and asshattery. We give you a deadline, you ignored it. We accept your apology only to find out that it was a slap in the face. Once you see that we're in no mood to play games, you scurry to gather tech to send to us. You had no plan to indulge us with diplomacy, no plan to get this over with in a timely manner however you did have a plan backed by several active members in LSF, by which it seems are recognized by your own alliance as a "government", to let Opti trick GLoF into attacking NoR. Now, it may be stretching it a bit... or not, to say that what Opti did was indeed espionage and was sanctioned by the members of your alliance.

Furthermore, in the apology thread Hereno proceeded to bait IRON and say that we would not get the tech that you agreed to give unless we tore it from your cold dead hands. Now, does this sound like a situation that could have been avoided easily? Sure, however you had no intention to do that.[/quote]
I'm still masked on your board as a diplomat from TOP despite having left TOP over 72 hours ago and telling you about it in this very thread several hours ago. Demasking can take time. Everybody knows that. It's especially true in small alliances where there isn't a lot of people with admin powers.

His words weren't taken out of context. I posted the whole logs. He was asked by Opti why he (Opti) was being attacked by IRON after the apology was posted. MCRABT responded that he (Opti) was being attacked because "he was no longer a member of LSF". I don't know how any of that can be any clearer. You guys either consider him a member of LSF or you don't. What happened is that you guys chose not to consider him a member of LSF for the purpose of attacking him (because war wasn't going to happen at that time) and then decided he was somehow magically back into LSF for the purpose of giving you some moral ground to stand on in your OP (and trying to paint us in a worse light).

We queried your government to know where exactly to send the technology to. It wasn't done out of fear - what is there to fear for us, with nine open war slots before your declaration? - but because we were trying to honor our agreement. Obviously, you didn't want none of that. Eighteen hours was too long a time for you.

Suddenly, despite querying you, we were unresponsive and unwilling to pay. Suddenly, Opti was back into LSF. Suddenly, war needed to be on. And rushed. Quick before those rascals at LSF actually send the tech. And rushed it was.

I don't mind the war, my only problem is the lies you felt necessary to use to justify yourself. In a day where "I dislike you" is more than enough to start coalition wars, I don't understand why you simply didn't use the apology's subtext as your sole reason for declaring on us. It would have been more than enough to get the precious cheers of your allies, trust me.

And my only question would be: what is it that you seek by warring with LSF, since you deny trying to go after Int or C&G? Reparations? You can't even trust us for eighteen hours and 200 tech and, let's be honest, we wouldn't trust you either. War blood? All of our nations are currently occupied with Nordreich.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1340236123' post='2990769']
While the CB is legit(I laughed with the apology thing), I have to ask: There is a clause in LSF-The INT treaty who says that The International is obliged to defend unless the attacker has a legit CB? If not the fact that the CB is legit isn't an excuse to fail to honor a treaty for the third time in the same month.
[/quote]

Keep trying to push someone else's agenda bro. I suggest you read the GOD-CSN treaty, and at least attempt to be fair and consistent with your goading.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1340238578' post='2990824']
Keep trying to push someone else's agenda bro. I suggest you read the GOD-CSN treaty, and at least attempt to be fair and consistent with your goading.
[/quote]
You want consistency? Surely you jest.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340236161' post='2990771']
I'm still masked on your board as a diplomat from TOP despite having left TOP over 72 hours ago and telling you about it in this very thread several hours ago. Demasking can take time. Everybody knows that. It's especially true in small alliances where there isn't a lot of people with admin powers.

His words weren't taken out of context. I posted the whole logs. He was asked by Opti why he (Opti) was being attacked by IRON after the apology was posted. MCRABT responded that he (Opti) was being attacked because "he was no longer a member of LSF". I don't know how any of that can be any clearer. You guys either consider him a member of LSF or you don't. What happened is that you guys chose not to consider him a member of LSF for the purpose of attacking him (because war wasn't going to happen at that time) and then decided he was somehow magically back into LSF for the purpose of giving you some moral ground to stand on in your OP (and trying to paint us in a worse light).

We queried your government to know where exactly to send the technology to. It wasn't done out of fear - what is there to fear for us, with nine open war slots before your declaration? - but because we were trying to honor our agreement. Obviously, you didn't want none of that. Eighteen hours was too long a time for you.

Suddenly, despite querying you, we were unresponsive and unwilling to pay. Suddenly, Opti was back into LSF. Suddenly, war needed to be on. And rushed. Quick before those rascals at LSF actually send the tech. And rushed it was.

I don't mind the war, my only problem is the lies you felt necessary to use to justify yourself. In a day where "I dislike you" is more than enough to start coalition wars, I don't understand why you simply didn't use the apology's subtext as your sole reason for declaring on us. It would have been more than enough to get the precious cheers of your allies, trust me.

And my only question would be: what is it that you seek by warring with LSF, since you deny trying to go after Int or C&G? Reparations? You can't even trust us for eighteen hours and 200 tech and, let's be honest, we wouldn't trust you either. War blood? All of our nations are currently occupied with Nordreich.
[/quote]

The truth is, this is a very logical argument. The further truth is, the message in the apology, to me, is enough on its own to warrant the hit (I would want to hit over it too because simple diplomacy should not be hard to get from an alliance.) The rest of the window dressing in the IRON CB is not really needed, and it really left to a boatload of interpretation (not that any of our interpretations matter)...but 1 day for reps, kinda ridiculous. The member thing... its a mask, who really cares. LSF 100% deserve what they are getting, but sometimes, less is more in terms of why.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1340216209' post='2990312']
Listen I know of an alliance that was rolled for impersonation (Hello Sir Paul and the Mushroom King debacle)...
[/quote]
OOC: I floated the idea of using it as a strictly IC CB,

IC: but was pretty soundly shot down by Archon and our allies. I don't recall it coming up when we did ultimately roll you.

[TIEIXIAIS]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340236161' post='2990771']
I'm still masked on your board as a diplomat from TOP despite having left TOP over 72 hours ago and telling you about it in this very thread several hours ago. Demasking can take time. Everybody knows that. It's especially true in small alliances where there isn't a lot of people with admin powers. [/quote]

Diplomat masks, especially during war time, tend to take longer to be noticed. We mask new members almost instantly, and banned, or retiring ones just as quickly as our new members. Diplomats take a bit more time.

Opti was and still is a member of LSF. Alliances in LSF's position would have once agreed to the terms, taken quick action to demask him. Basically, your argument here is !@#$.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340236161' post='2990771']
His words weren't taken out of context. I posted the whole logs. He was asked by Opti why he (Opti) was being attacked by IRON after the apology was posted. MCRABT responded that he (Opti) was being attacked because "he was no longer a member of LSF". I don't know how any of that can be any clearer. You guys either consider him a member of LSF or you don't. What happened is that you guys chose not to consider him a member of LSF for the purpose of attacking him (because war wasn't going to happen at that time) and then decided he was somehow magically back into LSF for the purpose of giving you some moral ground to stand on in your OP (and trying to paint us in a worse light).[/quote]

He was attacked because it was assumed that you had removed Opti from your membership. However, you made the mistake of not removing him at all which just made your !@#$ storm even !@#$tier.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340236161' post='2990771']We queried your government to know where exactly to send the technology to. It wasn't done out of fear - what is there to fear for us, with nine open war slots before your declaration? - but because we were trying to honor our agreement. Obviously, you didn't want none of that. Eighteen hours was too long a time for you.[/quote]
The other parts of your agreement had not yet been honored, in fact you spat in our face....again....fulfilling the tech portion would not have gotten you out of trouble. You still have to honor the other two parts. I don't know if you know this, but you failed miserable at them.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340236161' post='2990771']
Suddenly, despite querying you, we were unresponsive and unwilling to pay. Suddenly, Opti was back into LSF. Suddenly, war needed to be on. And rushed. Quick before those rascals at LSF actually send the tech. And rushed it was. [/quote]
It seems your concept of time is skewered. We did not rush, in fact, we gave you longer than the deadline to comply.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340236161' post='2990771']
I don't mind the war, my only problem is the lies you felt necessary to use to justify yourself. In a day where "I dislike you" is more than enough to start coalition wars, I don't understand why you simply didn't use the apology's subtext as your sole reason for declaring on us. It would have been more than enough to get the precious cheers of your allies, trust me.[/quote]
Probable because LSF is more or less insignificant, and not worth a "We don't like you CB." The reason war was declared was more or less because you were unable to respect our sovereignty, denied us the terms you agreed upon, and you attempted to incite a war between our ally and another alliance, endangering the beloved Republic.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340236161' post='2990771']
And my only question would be: what is it that you seek by warring with LSF, since you deny trying to go after Int or C&G? Reparations? You can't even trust us for eighteen hours and 200 tech and, let's be honest, we wouldn't trust you either. War blood? All of our nations are currently occupied with Nordreich.
[/quote]
We demand our sovereignty be respected and recognized as well as our allies in GLoF.

I will also retort with a question.

Why on Admins green Planet bob would we allow you to go beyond the deadline and so desperately try to resolve the situation only to screw over our allies by starting a war with C&G while knowing good and well that half of our allies will be dragged in to a separate conflict that is ongoing?

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='TIEIXIAIS' timestamp='1340241615' post='2990865']
Diplomat masks, especially during war time, tend to take longer to be noticed. We mask new members almost instantly, and banned, or retiring ones just as quickly as our new members. Diplomats take a bit more time.

Opti was and still is a member of LSF. Alliances in LSF's position would have once agreed to the terms, taken quick action to demask him. Basically, your argument here is !@#$.



He was attacked because it was assumed that you had removed Opti from your membership. However, you made the mistake of not removing him at all which just made your !@#$ storm even !@#$tier.


The other parts of your agreement had not yet been honored, in fact you spat in our face....again....fulfilling the tech portion would not have gotten you out of trouble. You still have to honor the other two parts. I don't know if you know this, but you failed miserable at them.


It seems your concept of time is skewered. We did not rush, in fact, we gave you longer than the deadline to comply.


Probable because LSF is more or less insignificant, and not worth a "We don't like you CB." The reason war was declared was more or less because you were unable to respect our sovereignty, denied us the terms you agreed upon, and you attempted to incite a war between our ally and another alliance, endangering the beloved Republic.


We demand our sovereignty be respected and recognized as well as our allies in GLoF.

I will also retort with a question.

Why on Admins green Planet bob would we allow you to go beyond the deadline and so desperately try to resolve the situation only to screw over our allies by starting a war with C&G while knowing good and well that half of our allies will be dragged in to a separate conflict that is ongoing?
[/quote]
What deadline are you rambling on about?

The only one I knew was the ultimatum to agree to your terms. Which we missed by exactly [i]one minute[/i].

For the rest, you recognized our member as having left LSF. So did we. We can't be blamed if, suddenly, you decide he's not out of LSF anymore (how nice of you) because of some subjective criteria.

You also gave us less than 18 hours before you considered the reps weren't paid. Despite being queried and ignoring us.

Sorry, you failed on those two points.

[Pacifist Ninja]

To all the people saying the offending member wasn't demasked in time: regardless if you believe not demasking the impersonator was unintentional, and regardless of the fact the member was acknowledged to be expelled by MCRABT, the fact remains IRON could have very easily asked us why the offender wasn't demasked yet. But in their rush to war, they had no such concern for diplomacy.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Pacifist Ninja

[Mompson]

At least it's a CB. Have fun!

[TIEIXIAIS]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340244288' post='2990944']
What deadline are you rambling on about?

The only one I knew was the ultimatum to agree to your terms. Which we missed by exactly [i]one minute[/i].

For the rest, you recognized our member as having left LSF. So did we. We can't be blamed if, suddenly, you decide he's not out of LSF anymore (how nice of you) because of some subjective criteria.

You also gave us less than 18 hours before you considered the reps weren't paid. Despite being queried and ignoring us.

Sorry, you failed on those two points.
[/quote]


Excuse me sir, I don't mean to be rude, but I just wanted to inform you your record player is broken.

[kingzog]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1340231287' post='2990660']He actually put in an application to INT moments after the terms were accepted and the apology was posted.[/quote]

It's only somewhat relevant to this particular discussion, but I would appreciate a bit of clarification.

You're offering sanctuary to members of the Libertarian Socialist Federation?

Edited June 21, 2012 by kingzog

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='TIEIXIAIS' timestamp='1340245183' post='2990966']
Excuse me sir, I don't mean to be rude, but I just wanted to inform you your record player is broken.
[/quote]
I'll keep posting what is the truth for as long as you keep denying it.

That's a more verbose form of "no u".

[Rhizoctonia]

[quote name='Pacifist Ninja' timestamp='1340244622' post='2990955']
To all the people saying the offending member wasn't demasked in time: regardless if you believe not demasking the impersonator was unintentional, and regardless of the fact the member was acknowledged to be expelled by MCRABT, the fact remains IRON could have very easily asked us why the offender wasn't demasked yet. But in their rush to war, they had no such concern for diplomacy.
[/quote]


There is continuous claims stating in 50 different ways that you feel you guys did nothing wrong, and were the bad guys.

Let's Break It Down.

Reps - OK, so 18 hours later no reps had been paid...not 1 aid package sent. Now maybe i can see the issue with getting a hold of someone to send...but my goodness i think at least a bit could of been sent...at least make a show that you're working to pay the rep. I mean, i get it, smaller alliance...I use to be in/rule a small alliance, and when one of my guys did something wrong, and reps were asked, i made sure it was done ASAP....if it meant myself.

Apology - Got it, we all know the apology wasn't sincere, it was forced..etc. So be it, at least make the attempt at an apology somewhat believable. When you take shots at the person your apologizing to, in your apology..that's basically saying yea I'm sorry, but not really, i think you guys are #@^holes. Then later on, being informed the hidden little thing within it...yea...that's basically just putting icing on the cake that the whole incident isn't being taken serious.

Demask - Yea, at times i can understand de-masking someone, but you guys were discussing it and agreeing on the terms....it's fresh in your mind, should be easily demasked at that point. Someone leaving an alliance for another isnt always picked up right away...it's not like we know every little internal thing going on in each alliance.


It's quite obvious that you guys didn't care to be sincere about the whole incident. The "joke" as you guys like to claim, didn't just start and end with the IRC, but yet continued with the hidden little jab at IRON in the apology. If that's really how you feel, then "nut up" and just say I'm not going to agree to the terms and we don't care someone tried to impersonate MCRABT, and take the consequences that would come with that, rather then waste our time with not sending reps/demasking/and making up a BS apology when you sit here and think you guys did nothing wrong

Edited June 21, 2012 by Rhizoctonia

[TIEIXIAIS]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340245558' post='2990984']
I'll keep posting what is the truth for as long as you keep denying it.

That's a more verbose form of "no u".
[/quote]

I believe that you believe it is the truth. I accept the fact that your ego is so large that you are unable to sacrifice even the tiniest bit by accepting you are wrong. So you tell yourself over and over a scenario in your head until you believe it yourself.

The fact remains, LSF is alone, and it's actions have been condoned by no one, and it is general belief that you $%&@ed up.

I do hope LSF's metaphorical balls drop, so that we can draw this to a close.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='TIEIXIAIS' timestamp='1340245997' post='2991005']
I believe that you believe it is the truth. I accept the fact that your ego is so large that you are unable to sacrifice even the tiniest bit by accepting you are wrong. So you tell yourself over and over a scenario in your head until you believe it yourself.

The fact remains, LSF is alone, and it's actions have been condoned by no one, and it is general belief that you $%&@ed up.

I do hope LSF's metaphorical balls drop, so that we can draw this to a close.
[/quote]

I don't believe anything he has stated has been factually incorrect thus far.

[Anarquista]

a vote in the LSF typically lasts for 48 hours, 24 hours min
LSF members (and non-members, frankly) that were scrambling to push through anything regarding the IRON incident will admit, they did not have approval and were speaking for the LSF when they should not have, and were working under pressure provided by outside forces, no one can really say the LSF agreed to or decided on anything, there are no leaders or representatives, autonomous individuals should have taken responsibility for their own actions

[Auctor]

No one's under any obligation to respect your internal decision making process when you're committing acts of war against them.

[TIEIXIAIS]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1340246343' post='2991015']
I don't believe anything he has stated has been factually incorrect thus far.
[/quote]

You lack relevance, and your backing of his 'argument' actually hurts it. Please, for LSF's sake stay out of it.