Declaration of Reexistance

[Simon De Montfort]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1305511566' post='2712567']
OOC: The situation is no different to the One China policy.
[/quote]
Excellent analogy.

[Prozenz]

Good luck Grämlins!

MisterDark, MasterBake and DLT!

[Ardus]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305511350' post='2712557']
I hope we can all remember that alliances are supporting a coup against a democratic alliance.



I remember well what they said, get Ram out of power according to their charter would be wrong, but coup him after being away from the alliance for years is the right thing to do...
[/quote]
You're literally and unironically siding with Ram. I cannot impress this upon you enough.

[The King]

let the fun begin.

[D34th]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1305511566' post='2712567']
It's not a coup. There are two groups of nations occupying the same AA with two separate administrations and forums. These Gremlins are not taking over the old Gremlin alliance (Or RAMlins as they have oh so subtly dubbed them), they are replacing them. And outside alliances are recognising this administration as the rightful occupiers of the AA.

OOC: The situation is no different to the One China policy.
[/quote]

Nice way to try to mask the coup.


[quote name='Ada069' timestamp='1305512040' post='2712576']
I disagree with the word Coup. Coup is about replacing the Government with a new one. We aren't replacing the Government, we are replacing the AA. Taking over it, making changes to the existing way things are done and implementing our own. Its a Revolution.
[/quote]

See above.

[quote name='Edjaal' timestamp='1305511691' post='2712571']
Was what Ram did to Gramlins right in the first place? This is one of those cases where two wrongs CAN make a right, I figure we can sit back, let them do what they're doing, and if we don't like it, we can, as Crymson so eloquently put, "Do something about it." At the current moment, they are "doing something about it" in regards to having left their home. Sometimes a broken system can't be fixed from inside, but needs to be fixed from outside, by people who used to be insiders.
[/quote]

Those members who were actually using Grämlins AA thought that Ramirus was good enough to chose AND keep him as a leader, and said members are the only opinion that really matter. IF all cyberverse decides that the leaders of RIA are bad, will you accept that someone coup them? What is happening here is one more case where those suffering the injustices are pariahs and nobody really cares about what happen to them, I doubt that would happen in a well connected alliance or to a well liked player.

In fact I'm losing my time arguing here, since I speak about what is right and wrong and what is fair and unfair when nobody in this world care about justice or fairness.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1305497703' post='2712362']
Six! There are six of us! Get it right.
[/quote]

Sowwy, so sowwy.

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1305499052' post='2712375']
My guess would be "outside".
[/quote]

Indeed, every indication is that that is so.


It's seemingly the stance of those comprising this incarnation - and those supporting them - that Grämlins had experienced a debilitating takeover and is now being liberated. You can call it a coup, or dispute their actions, but it changes little really. What's done is done, and Grämlins seems better for it.

Edited May 16, 2011 by SirWilliam

[Banksy]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305513596' post='2712593']
Nice way to try to mask the coup.[/quote]
I like the way you address my points~

Sometimes I wonder why I bother replying when it's clear all you do is repeat the same buzzwords over and over again.

[img]http://www.active-noise-reduction.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/noise-fingers-in-ears-001.jpg[/img]

[Bob Sanders]

The coup is obviously reasonable. Let us all hope that you do not continue with the gutless membership policies that allowed Ramirus to fester like a posterior boil on the old Gremlins. He would have been long thrown out by any sane alliance not beholden to cultish principles that blinded you.

[Azaghul]

I'd consider it a revolution, rather than a coup, but who really cares? Ramirus drove Gremlins into the ground to the point where they had 10 members and no outside friends. The "new" Gremlins have 20 or 30+ members and strong friends who support them in the endeavor. Ramirus lost any "right" to the AA by his terrible governing.

In this case, might makes right. It's not your AA and if this offends you so much, do something about it.

[Edjaal]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305513596' post='2712593']
Those members who were actually using Grämlins AA thought that Ramirus was good enough to chose AND keep him as a leader, and said members are the only opinion that really matter. IF all cyberverse decides that the leaders of RIA are bad, will you accept that someone coup them? What is happening here is one more case where those suffering the injustices are pariahs and nobody really cares about what happen to them, I doubt that would happen in a well connected alliance or to a well liked player.

In fact I'm losing my time arguing here, since I speak about what is right and wrong and what is fair and unfair when nobody in this world care about justice or fairness.
[/quote]

Why are those members the only ones who's opinion's matter? If the cyberverse decided RIA was bad, and tried to coup them, I may or may not oppose it, depends on the situation, the situation in Grem was bad enough for the old members to "take back what is theirs." If it was a situation similar to that, if RIA's leadership was leading us so deep in the crudpile, I would probably support that coup, as long as it was done by members who were or are RIA, not by outsiders.

The ones suffering injustices are suffering them because they burned their bridges, made stupid judgement calls and made themselves not popular.

I'm sorry this discussion is wasting your time, I'm just trying to be a devil's advocate to you and your outcry against the injustices. And as respectfully as I can ask this, who are you to declare what is right or wrong, fair/unfair?

Also an old adage that parents regularly tell their kids, "Life is not fair."

[D34th]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1305513941' post='2712597']
I like the way you address my points~

Sometimes I wonder why I bother replying when it's clear all you do is repeat the same buzzwords over and over again.
[/quote]

How would you like that I address your points? In a more extensive way? Ok, let's go:

[quote]A coup d'état—also known as a coup, putsch, and overthrow—is the sudden, extrajudicial deposition of a government, usually by a small group of the existing state establishment—typically the military—to replace the deposed government with another body; either civil or military.[/quote]

[b]The extrajudicial deposition of a government happened? (see bellow)[/b]
Yeah, check

[b]The deposed government was replaced by another body?(see bellow)[/b]
Yeah, check

[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1305486064' post='2712155']
Today, We come before the Cyberverse with the announcement of the reformation of the original Grämlins alliance.
[color="#FF0000"][b]We hereby claim ownership and sovereignty of The Grämlins alliance affiliation..[/b][/color]
Any nation residing on The Grämlins AA and not being a legitimate member of the reformed alliance has 7 days to leave the affilation or apply for membership.
[color="#FF0000"][b]Should neither happen, we will enforce our sovereignty[/b][/color]

Signed
[img]http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/PabloPerotti/CN/avy1.png[/img]

[b]The Grämlins Conclave[/b]

Bob Janova, [i]Judicator[/i]
HellAngel, [i]Executor[/i]
Tobbogon, [i]Praetor[/i]

[b]The Grämlins[/b]

Dankbud
TsarN
egwaterboy61
Ada069
Drizuz
Mister Dark
Engel
Tobbogon
Bwukk
Thorn the Dark Sage
LordMenak
manussa
EisKing Fred
Ejayrazz
Gilbert Horal
Sigrun Vapneir
Inferno
Omas Nams
Darklordtim
LiquidMercury
nutkase
Apfelschorle
SynthFG
King Chill I
Enrique Barrentos
Hidden
necAnt
Han Fei Zi

PS: Goldie wanted a mention as honorary member. You're first, congrats.
[/quote]

So tell me again, why this isn't a coup?

[Drizuz]

[quote name='Edjaal' timestamp='1305512259' post='2712578']
Well... you kind of are replacing the Government if you're replacing EVERYTHING about the alliance... revolution's usually have a coup as part of them at some point in time.
[/quote]

We replaced a insignificant alliance of perhaps 3 active members (if that) and 7 ghost/actives within their AA. We are not replacing everything about the alliance! it's practically not existent.The real spirit has always lived in us, the members that when into a silent exile, we kept that brotherhood and sisterhood alive, away from within the Gremlins of Ram. We come back to our home.

[Jessebelle]

DLT.. Really? ;_;
Good luck guys.. I guess.

[Banksy]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305514802' post='2712609']
How would you like that I address your points? In a more extensive way? Ok, let's go:

[b]The extrajudicial deposition of a government happened? (see bellow)[/b]
Yeah, check

[b]The deposed government was replaced by another body?(see bellow)[/b]
Yeah, check

So tell me again, why this isn't a coup?
[/quote]
The government hasn't been replaced. Ram's Gremlins can sit on the AA for as long as they want to, getting orders from Ram. This is a new Gremlins. This current lot have decided to designate the old ones ghosts ITT, so that would suggest they are not removing the government, rather declaring the alliance separate (and illegitimate, see my previous comments).

This is shown by the way the new Gremlins have rejected the current instruments of government and power, they are created a new entity. As such, it is a different body politic sitting alongside the old one and this action is not a coup.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Banksy

[Bob Sanders]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305514802' post='2712609']
So tell me again, why this isn't a coup?
[/quote]
Tell me why a coup is bad?

[pd73bassman]

Welcome back

[HeroofTime55]

You are all dumb.

It's a coup, which means, and work with me here, it means that it's a goddamn internal affair.

Ram has no support externally, and now he has none internally, and it's former members doing what they should have done ages ago.

Yeah, they all ran from the alliance instead of deal with the problem. That was a mistake, and they're rectifying it now.

It's a coup, and they are right to do it.

[nutkase]

Hey Ram

You angry?

[D34th]

[quote name='Edjaal' timestamp='1305514678' post='2712608']
Why are those members the only ones who's opinion's matter?
[/quote]

Because the only opinions that matter to chose a democratic leader of an alliance is the opinion of those who are part of said alliance? Isn't that obvious?

[quote name='Edjaal' timestamp='1305514678' post='2712608']
And as respectfully as I can ask this, who are you to declare what is right or wrong, fair/unfair?

Also an old adage that parents regularly tell their kids, "Life is not fair."
[/quote]
In my point of view steal the leadership of someone who was democratically chosen, when this leader didn't made use of any cheat or use of force to induce the election and when said leader represents no threat to outside entities, it is a wrong and unfair thing.

You can try deny it, but you will lack of arguments to support your opinion. See replies to my posts above, when people start to use "do something about it" and "might makes right" arguments is like a confession of guilty.

Also the fact that life is unfair doesn't should make us give up of try to make this become at least, less unfair.

[Schad]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305515661' post='2712623']
Because the only opinions that matter to chose a democratic leader of an alliance is the opinion of those who are part of said alliance? Isn't that obvious?


In my point of view steal the leadership of someone who was democratically chosen, when this leader didn't made use of any cheat or use of force to induce the election and when said leader represents no threat to outside entities, it is a wrong and unfair thing.

You can try deny it, but you will lack of arguments to support your opinion. See replies to my posts above, when people start to use "do something about it" and "might makes right" arguments is like a confession of guilty.

Also the fact that life is unfair doesn't should make us give up of try to make this become at least, less unfair.
[/quote]

If the greatest crime witnessed today is the gentle pushing aside of the universally reviled leader of the shattered remnants of an alliance, to be replaced by a group that intend to lead it back to a stature worthy of its name, it will have been a pretty good day.

[Edjaal]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305515661' post='2712623']
[b]You can try deny it, but you will lack of arguments to support your opinion.[/b] See replies to my posts above, when people start to use "do something about it" and "might makes right" arguments is like a confession of guilty.

Also the fact that life is unfair doesn't should make us give up of try to make this become at least, less unfair.
[/quote]

You'll have to ask the former members of Grem who are now taking back their alliance about that, you're right I don't have the facts to debate this, so I will not try. I'm looking at it as an outside.

[Canik]

Grämlins have gone a long way towards repairing their reputation with the opening post. This is a step in the right direction. :thumbsup:

[Feanor Noldorin]

Good luck my friends.

[Denial]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305514802' post='2712609']
So tell me again, why this isn't a coup?
[/quote]
Okay, let's say that it is. Why is a coup inherently bad? Moreover, you have argued against this development because of Ramirus being democratically elected. What makes a democratically elected leader [i]inherently[/i] good?

As Azaghul has stated - I believe it was Azaghul - this is more of a revolution than a coup. There is a difference. These Gramlins had a right, if not a duty, to rebel against a government that, while democratically elected, had run the alliance and its attached community into the ground, isolated it in political affairs, and destroyed any semblance of respect it once held. Yes, it is unfortunate that they took quite a while to fulfil this duty to rebel, but sometimes, these things take a while.

[Skippy]

Good luck guys

Nutkase