Dear VE, A dear message from TKTB's supposed spy

[Jewelangel]

[quote name='KingEd' timestamp='1292096065' post='2536640']
It truly is. If the evidence does exist of this Skype conversations/logs of information changing hands from Was to TKTB Govt then TKTB is in quite a pickle because I wouldn't let that slide, and I doubt anyone else would either.




I think Bob Janova warned against this.
[/quote]
Other TKTB gov were not involved in the skype conversation. If we were, we wouldn't be asking for evidence of spying. The first we knew about any of this was a conversation with Impero.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292095985' post='2536638']
Prove it to TKTB. Not so and so told us that Wasdrogan said this on skype. Show actual proof. You or your ally VE don't have it do you?
[/quote]

Our telling of events is corroborated by credible witness testimony as well as by matching numbers (BJ's warchest matches with what was proffered by said witness testimony).

Edited December 11, 2010 by SirWilliam

[Desert Ratz]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292079087' post='2536372']
yep, just ask NSO about a mask mistake. i could have sworn NSO's mask mistake made them laughed at, yet now we have VE making an even worse mask mistake (6 months compared to a couple of days) and all those who insulted NSO are saying that VE did nothing wrong. that is amusing. VE should probably admit they $%&@ed up and let Was go, especially since there would be no logs from a Skype Voice chat that could substantiate anything. so VE has no proof of this crime except for a he said, she said. what VE does have is a huge mistake in their masking methods. 6 months is a long time to leave someone masked. i have never known any alliance that incompetent.
[/quote]

Well spoken Doch.

[TonytheTiger]

So VE doesn't keep up to date on masking. A former member stops by and reads something. Now that individual is supposed to take a beating after leaving his new alliance so VE won't roll them?

I just don't see the CB.

Edited December 11, 2010 by TonytheTiger

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1292091843' post='2536569']
Yeah to be honest now is the time that VE should probably turn up with evidence etc. I think everybody understands that the masking issue is an extraordinary act of stupidity and exploiting that is inexcusably poor behaviour but no actual proof of said exploit has been provided yet. I suspect once it has been proven there will be almost nothing of worth to talk about.
[/quote]

Dude, its a drama grab thread posted (at 3 am at that) by a resigning member who got his hand caught in the cookie jar, not an alliance announcement, you expect actual useful info from this thread?

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1292092370' post='2536579']
I wouldn't provide the evidence for the peanut gallery either, but I would most certainly provide the evidence for the alliance affected, which once again has yet to be done. Unless the evidence provided is simply what has already been stated in this discussion, the word of penkala.
[/quote]

You think that hasn't happened? Would a member of government resign from his alliance with a poorly thought out grab at some PR if he didn't already know he'd been caught? If we had nothing TKTB would still simply be denying everything and this never would have left queries. Jewel is tap dancing as fast as she can but the reality is, if there weren't substance here it would have gone nowhere.

[quote name='Aimee Mann' timestamp='1292095908' post='2536637']
You don't think that VE hoped to set up a one-sided war over this? It seems rather obvious that they hoped to pressure TKTB into committing to defend their member, without providing the evidence (that we still haven't seen?) that could possibly make TKTB think twice about keeping WasDragon around, at least not until it would be too late for them to do anything about it.
[/quote]

Oh come on, that's just silly. If we wanted a transparent excuse for a war we'd have jumped on the WCE when that leaked. I know its a shocker compared to how the last guys did things but we actually wait for concrete grievances before we take actions. The boredom everyone complains about is the direct result of that, we try diplomacy.

[quote name='ditchboy00' timestamp='1292096043' post='2536639']
how are the facts out there if you do not even share them with the alliance you accused of spying?
[/quote]

The fact that you think they are not means either you are lying or your government is lying to you.


I find this whole thread hilarious, for a variety of reasons, but the greatest is the amount of unfounded assumptions so many people are making, some pretty huge ones too. You all should know better by now than to believe the OWF of all things without getting some kind of verification. I'll remind you all again that this is the resignation thread of a member, not an announcement from either of the two alliances involved here, thinking you have more than the most generic grasp on events is just plain foolish if this thread is your only source of information.

Edit: Note to self double check temp in hell, I'm pretty sure I saw RV defend us somewhere back there.

Edited December 11, 2010 by TypoNinja

[jer]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1292097193' post='2536664']
I know its a shocker compared to how the last guys did things but we actually wait for concrete grievances before we take actions. The boredom everyone complains about is the direct result of that, we try diplomacy.[/quote]
Diplomacy like withholding information to manipulate a situation in order to make you look like the victims? That's not diplomacy, that's warmongering, coward-style! They are the same tactics that have always been used, by old and by new. You took an error or a misjudgement by one member of an alliance and tried to blow it up into a big issue because you knew you were on the stronger side. It's classic Planet Bob opportunism, and the only reason your grievance has gone from 'concrete' to 'non-existent' is because the guy left the alliance and denied you your 'harbouring spies' line.

You are right about one thing though, your style of politics is certainly causing planetary numbers to dwindle. Good job on that one.

[Aurion]

Oh.

Huh.

This looks vaguely interesting.

[Locke]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1292097193' post='2536664']
I find this whole thread hilarious, for a variety of reasons, but the greatest is the amount of unfounded assumptions so many people are making, some pretty huge ones too. You all should know better by now than to believe the OWF of all things without getting some kind of verification. I'll remind you all again that this is the resignation thread of a member, not an announcement from either of the two alliances involved here, thinking you have more than the most generic grasp on events is just plain foolish if this thread is your only source of information.

Edit: Note to self double check temp in hell, I'm pretty sure I saw RV defend us somewhere back there.
[/quote]
Like I said:
[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1292096189' post='2536642']
No, they aren't, but if they don't they shouldn't be complaining about how everyone is mis-informed and drawing the wrong conclusions; can't have it both ways, either release the evidence and have well-informed people, or refuse to and lack that.


Well, the point being made is that, unless someone cares to share exactly what happened, there's no proof. Again, VE doesn't [i]have[/i] to share, but until they do people will hold their own opinions on the matter. Sit and laugh at how wrong people are if you like, but it's not like you've given people much choice other than to take your word for it, which apparently they don't.
[/quote]

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' timestamp='1292098039' post='2536670']
Diplomacy like withholding information to manipulate a situation in order to make you look like the victims? That's not diplomacy, that's warmongering, coward-style! They are the same tactics that have always been used, by old and by new. You took an error or a misjudgement by one member of an alliance and tried to blow it up into a big issue because you knew you were on the stronger side. It's classic Planet Bob opportunism, and the only reason your grievance has gone from 'concrete' to 'non-existent' is because the guy left the alliance and denied you your 'harbouring spies' line.

You are right about one thing though, your style of politics is certainly causing planetary numbers to dwindle. Good job on that one.
[/quote]

What you mean like not bowing to every whim of the peanut gallery in a drama grab thread by a resigning member of government who knows he got caught?

You really want info? Join VE or TKTB and get member updates like the rest of our members, or sit down, shut up, and wait for the announcement that you know is going to come eventually from actual government before !@#$%*ing we're withholding information. I don't know about you, but I like to sleep in on weekends (well every day if it comes to that) give some members of government time to wake up and make decisions before you start whining about how we never tell the peanut gallery anything. You'll look less silly that way. I say less, because nothing could completely prevent you from looking silly, you just try to hard.

Edited December 11, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1292089713' post='2536516']


It's not my information to share if VE is keeping a lid on it, but I am scratching my head because I'm unaware of what the downside to doing so would be in this case.

[/quote]

Ooc: Because we are in finals and this was posted at 3am.


Well on that note, I'll clear a few things up:

1. The action was cooberated by multiple individuals in the skype chat.

2. This issue had nothing to do with our forums and demasking members there. He retrieved the information by logging on to NORAD (Bob Janova's "skynet" type tool that is used by us and our allies extensively). Wasdrogon was former VE military and ended up with two masks somehow on the tool, one was removed and the other was not. Updates to the tools structure and UI somehow covered up this mistake, and it was this that he took advantage of.

3. Login logs indicate this, and sever logs indicate what he viewed on the night in question. It was warchest information.

4. He admitted to his fellow TKTB government that yes, he did in fact do this. At no time was whether or not the action actually took place at dispute.

There was no issue of material fact being contested here, and the only discussions I had with TKTB's leader centered around whether or not they simply didn't care and wanted to protect him anyway.


I hope this clears things up for some of you, and I apologize about letting this get to 11 pages over night before I had a chance to further respond.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Kim Jaym Il]

[quote name='Jewelangel' timestamp='1292087382' post='2536468']
The last conversations we had were to try and keep things from going insane. We were trying to get specific with the 'punishment' they wanted for Was. And to be honest, PB doesn't scare me but I do have to think of all of my alliance, not just one member. [b]The arrogance of trying to bully a 900k ns alliance with the strength of PB on the other hand, makes me understand why so many people are leaving Bob.[/b]
[/quote]

This. This post. Beautiful.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292098970' post='2536682']
Ooc: Because we are in finals and this was posted at 3am.


Well on that note, I'll clear a few things up:

1. The action was cooberated by multiple individuals in the skype chat.

2. This issue had nothing to do with our forums and demasking members there. He retrieved the information by logging on to NORAD (Bob Janova's "skynet" type tool that is used by us and our allies extensively). Wasdrogon was former VE military and ended up with two masks somehow on the tool, one was removed and the other was not. Updates to the tools structure and UI somehow covered up this mistake, and it was this that he took advantage of.

3. Login logs indicate this, and sever logs indicate what he viewed on the night in question. It was warchest information.

4. He admitted to his fellow TKTB government that yes, he did in fact do this. At no time was whether or not the action actually took place at dispute.

There was no issue of material fact being contested here, and the only discussions I had with TKTB's leader centered around whether or not they simply didn't care and wanted to protect him anyway.


I hope this clears things up for some of you, and I apologize about letting this get to 11 pages over night before I had a chance to further respond.
[/quote]
So its not just VE who has had info compromised but all the users of NORAD? If that is the case why is VE prosecuting this and not others? (honest question just wondering) Is it because it was a VE mask that was used?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292099149' post='2536686']
So its not just VE who has had info compromised but all the users of NORAD? If that is the case why is VE prosecuting this and not others? (honest question just wondering) Is it because it was a VE mask that was used?
[/quote]

That, as well as the fact that we maintain the tool and the member who's warchest info he literally read to others in the chat (and yes, we corroborated with them what the number they were told was and it was in fact the warchest amount) was a VE member. Also, we are proactive.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292099299' post='2536689']
That, as well as the fact that we maintain the tool and the member who's warchest info he literally read to others in the chat (and yes, we corroborated with them what the number they were told was and it was in fact the warchest amount) was a VE member. Also, we are proactive.
[/quote]
Fair snews thanks for the clarification. If this is indeed what happened happy hunting as that seems pretty cut and dry as NORAD wouldnt have been anything he should have visited after his departure from VE.

[Mathias]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292099299' post='2536689']
That, as well as the fact that we maintain the tool and the member who's warchest info he literally read to others in the chat (and yes, we corroborated with them what the number they were told was and it was in fact the warchest amount) was a VE member. Also, we are proactive.
[/quote]

[font="Georgia"]Are you sure it's not because you're the New Hegemony? Because I'm sure I've heard that somewhere. [/font]

[CEverettKoop]

I hear that every time VE uses NORAD ten nations vanish off the face of Bob confirm/deny

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292098970' post='2536682']
Ooc: Because we are in finals and this was posted at 3am.


Well on that note, I'll clear a few things up:

1. The action was cooberated by multiple individuals in the skype chat.

2. This issue had nothing to do with our forums and demasking members there. He retrieved the information by logging on to NORAD (Bob Janova's "skynet" type tool that is used by us and our allies extensively). Wasdrogon was former VE military and ended up with two masks somehow on the tool, one was removed and the other was not. Updates to the tools structure and UI somehow covered up this mistake, and it was this that he took advantage of.

3. Login logs indicate this, and sever logs indicate what he viewed on the night in question. It was warchest information.

4. He admitted to his fellow TKTB government that yes, he did in fact do this. At no time was whether or not the action actually took place at dispute.

There was no issue of material fact being contested here, and the only discussions I had with TKTB's leader centered around whether or not they simply didn't care and wanted to protect him anyway.


I hope this clears things up for some of you, and I apologize about letting this get to 11 pages over night before I had a chance to further respond.
[/quote]

Case closed.

[TheListener]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292098970' post='2536682']
Ooc: Because we are in finals and this was posted at 3am.


Well on that note, I'll clear a few things up:

1. The action was cooberated by multiple individuals in the skype chat.

2. This issue had nothing to do with our forums and demasking members there. He retrieved the information by logging on to NORAD (Bob Janova's "skynet" type tool that is used by us and our allies extensively). Wasdrogon was former VE military and ended up with two masks somehow on the tool, one was removed and the other was not. Updates to the tools structure and UI somehow covered up this mistake, and it was this that he took advantage of.

3. Login logs indicate this, and sever logs indicate what he viewed on the night in question. It was warchest information.

4. He admitted to his fellow TKTB government that yes, he did in fact do this. At no time was whether or not the action actually took place at dispute.

There was no issue of material fact being contested here, and the only discussions I had with TKTB's leader centered around whether or not they simply didn't care and wanted to protect him anyway.


I hope this clears things up for some of you, and I apologize about letting this get to 11 pages over night before I had a chance to further respond.
[/quote]

OOC: 3 AM is a very reasonable time for TKTB as they are largely australian

IC: Evidence! such a good sight, certainly clears up the whole situation, at least as far as I'm concerned.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1292096405' post='2536649']
Our telling of events is corroborated by credible witness testimony as well as by matching numbers (BJ's warchest matches with what was proffered by said witness testimony).
[/quote]
So what? Given the size of Bob's nation:

Guy #1 - says it's definitely $1B
Guy #2 - says it's definitely $2B
Guy #3 - says it's definitely $3B
and so on and so on.

So which ever Guy is closest will be assumed to have been spying either directly or be receiving info from someone with the appropriate mask? Like I said. Wasdrogan's doings were wrong, but the info is not incredibly sensitive. Get over it.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292100282' post='2536707']
So what? Given the size of Bob's nation:

Guy #1 - says it's definitely $1B
Guy #2 - says it's definitely $2B
Guy #3 - says it's definitely $3B
and so on and so on.

So which ever Guy is closest will be assumed to have been spying either directly or be receiving info from someone with the appropriate mask? Like I said. Wasdrogan's doings were wrong, but the info is not incredibly sensitive. Get over it.
[/quote]
You can't seriously be arguing this.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Sardonic

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1292100488' post='2536709']
You can't seriously be arguing this.
[/quote]
I'm not, I'm just killing time and hoping to see some DoWs.

Edit: Yes, VE has a CB. Sad thing is they will go after Wasdrogan and this will be treated like another boring rogue action.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Fernando12

[Bob Ilyani]

I'm glad we finally got clarification. It's nice to see a thread that actually gets information out.

That being said, how could people actually think VE is at fault here? Did they make a masking mistake on their NORAD network? Sure. But the fact that a government member of an alliance not only abused the system instead of politely asking to be remasked (as a person with honorable intentions would have done) and then proceeded to tell others the information (which pertained to VE as well as their allies) is disgraceful.

Have fun wiping out this one, VE.

[berbers]

Hard to argue with that information, I'm glad it was clarified because there was alot of misinformation out there.

Logging into a secure military network, finding out militarily sensitive information and sharing it is most certainly a huge no-no.

Have fun VE!

[Bob Janova]

It's [i]definitely[/i] $200bn. Just sayin'.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Bob Janova

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292100282' post='2536707']
So what? Given the size of Bob's nation:

Guy #1 - says it's definitely $1B
Guy #2 - says it's definitely $2B
Guy #3 - says it's definitely $3B
and so on and so on.

So which ever Guy is closest will be assumed to have been spying either directly or be receiving info from someone with the appropriate mask? Like I said. Wasdrogan's doings were wrong, but the info is not incredibly sensitive. Get over it.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You're an idiot. Please just stop.

VE has some fairly solid evidence supporting their claims, and they're doing nothing wrong. In fact, this is the first time VE has done much of anything in months. It is not like they go out of their way to do wrong to people. WasDrogan took secure information and shared it with others. Most people consider that spying, and a CB.[/color]