Dear VE, A dear message from TKTB's supposed spy

[Aurion]

Well, I hope everyone learned a valuable lesson about jumping to concl- oh who the $%&@ am I kidding.

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1292102424' post='2536735']
[color="#0000FF"]You're an idiot. Please just stop.

VE has some fairly solid evidence supporting their claims, and they're doing nothing wrong. In fact, this is the first time VE has done much of anything in months. It is not like they go out of their way to do wrong to people. WasDrogan took secure information and shared it with others. Most people consider that spying, and a CB.[/color]
[/quote]

And if RV can't find a hole in a CB, then there ain't no hole worth finding.

Party on, VE.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292100575' post='2536712']
I'm not, I'm just killing time and hoping to see some DoWs.

Edit: Yes, VE has a CB. Sad thing is they will go after Wasdrogan and this will be treated like another boring rogue action.
[/quote]
RV, you didn't read this did you?

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1292102424' post='2536735']
[color="#0000FF"]You're an idiot. Please just stop.

VE has some fairly solid evidence supporting their claims, and they're doing nothing wrong. In fact, this is the first time VE has done much of anything in months. It is not like they go out of their way to do wrong to people. WasDrogan took secure information and shared it with others. Most people consider that spying, and a CB.[/color]
[/quote]

No U.

You can't detect sarcasm? I did post another reply to Sardonic when he asked if I was serious. Read a bit before you make a stupid and ignorant reply.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Fernando12

[jer]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1292098726' post='2536678']
What you mean like not bowing to every whim of the peanut gallery in a drama grab thread by a resigning member of government who knows he got caught?

You really want info? Join VE or TKTB and get member updates like the rest of our members, or sit down, shut up, and wait for the announcement that you know is going to come eventually from actual government before !@#$%*ing we're withholding information. I don't know about you, but I like to sleep in on weekends (well every day if it comes to that) give some members of government time to wake up and make decisions before you start whining about how we never tell the peanut gallery anything. You'll look less silly that way. I say less, because nothing could completely prevent you from looking silly, you just try to hard.
[/quote]
You had time to talk to TKTB about the situation, and you had time to tell your allies about the situation. Time wasn't the issue. Lucky for me, your leader posted the information we all wanted to know minutes after you made this post. Guess I don't have to join your alliance after all.

[greenacres]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292098970' post='2536682']
Ooc: Because we are in finals and this was posted at 3am.


Well on that note, I'll clear a few things up:

1. The action was cooberated by multiple individuals in the skype chat.

2. This issue had nothing to do with our forums and demasking members there. He retrieved the information by logging on to NORAD (Bob Janova's "skynet" type tool that is used by us and our allies extensively). Wasdrogon was former VE military and ended up with two masks somehow on the tool, one was removed and the other was not. Updates to the tools structure and UI somehow covered up this mistake, and it was this that he took advantage of.

3. Login logs indicate this, and sever logs indicate what he viewed on the night in question. It was warchest information.

4. He admitted to his fellow TKTB government that yes, he did in fact do this. At no time was whether or not the action actually took place at dispute.

There was no issue of material fact being contested here, and the only discussions I had with TKTB's leader centered around whether or not they simply didn't care and wanted to protect him anyway.


I hope this clears things up for some of you, and I apologize about letting this get to 11 pages over night before I had a chance to further respond.
[/quote]


If that's the case, then there's no problem in going after tktb if you wanted to. Could have spared this drama if that was posted earlier, too. .. well, there wasn't really any drama, but could have spared this attempt at drama is more like it.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292103095' post='2536743']
You can't detect sarcasm?[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]That was a joke? Looked a lot like your usual self to me, but hey, what do I know?[/color]

[Mathias]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292103095' post='2536743']
RV, you didn't read this did you?



No U.

You can't detect sarcasm? I did post another reply to Sardonic when he asked if I was serious. Read a bit before you make a stupid and ignorant reply.
[/quote]

[font="Georgia"]Fernando lecturing RV about making stupid and ignorant replies. [/font]

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292103095' post='2536743']
RV, you didn't read this did you?



No U.

You can't detect sarcasm? I did post another reply to Sardonic when he asked if I was serious. Read a bit before you make a stupid and ignorant reply.
[/quote]
Despite how it is frequently used on the OWF, sarcasm is not actually synonymous with "stupid thing I said but don't want to own up to."

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1292103370' post='2536748']
[color="#0000FF"]That was a joke? Looked a lot like your usual self to me, but hey, what do I know?[/color]
[/quote]
Aren't Fernando and a joke the same thing?

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='greenacres' timestamp='1292103363' post='2536747']
Could have spared this drama if that was posted earlier, too. ..
[/quote]

Notice the first sentence of the post you quoted ("Ooc: Because we are in finals and this was posted at 3am."), which indicates that wasn't exactly possible.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1292103731' post='2536753']
Aren't Fernando and a joke the same thing?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I too at times have difficulty distinguishing the two apart.[/color]

[Heft]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292055376' post='2536225']
Hey, if they were unsubstantiated, we wouldn't be here now would we?
[/quote]
Welp, can't argue with that logic.

Although in this case I guess they are substantiated (sadface). Still, funny post there.

[Locke]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292098970' post='2536682']
4. He admitted to his fellow TKTB government that yes, he did in fact do this. At no time was whether or not the action actually took place at dispute.

There was no issue of material fact being contested here, and the only discussions I had with TKTB's leader centered around whether or not they simply didn't care and wanted to protect him anyway.
[/quote]
Really? Jewel was contesting it in this very thread not long ago.

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1292100034' post='2536705']
OOC: 3 AM is a very reasonable time for TKTB as they are largely australian

IC: Evidence! such a good sight, certainly clears up the whole situation, at least as far as I'm concerned.
[/quote]
It's not so much evidence as reference to evidence. Better than nothing, mind you, but not 100% rock solid proof. That said, it does give us VE's position.
Now, VE, would you mind answering a few questions? I'll try to keep the questions broad since you seem so reluctant to give out the details. First off, is there any recording of said conversation? Multiple witnesses is good, but people will always be less reliable than the cold hard facts. And when you say multiple, is that more than two? And would you say they're generally with or against you, politically? Just trying to ascertain how objective this evidence may be. Now, with server logs, that's pretty concrete; assuming you won't share them here, can you at least confirm that you've shared them with relevant parties, and that they thus do exist?

Full details would be nice, but if you planned to release them widely you'd probably have done so by now. If my questions are vague enough in scope though to satisfy your desire to keep particulars from the public eye though, I do hope I can get a few answers. It would go a long way towards convincing me of your position (not that you likely care ).

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1292103731' post='2536753']
Aren't Fernando and a joke the same thing?
[/quote]
No, you are mistaken me for your piece of junk alliance that was forced to disband because it achieved a high level of suck.

[Batallion]

Dear TKTB,

Please disband you terrible, terrible alliance.

- Batallion, Emperor of AcTi

[Xiphosis]

[OOC]Using NORAD to go through warchests and have a laugh about it/broadcast it on Skype was immature and going to get a reaction no matter what, and you knew this. Grow up.

But yes, they ought to have demasked you anyway. You still took the least classiest route possible.[/OOC]

Edited December 11, 2010 by Xiphosis

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292104832' post='2536763']
No, you are mistaken me for your piece of junk alliance that was forced to disband because it achieved a high level of suck.
[/quote]
Probably the most intelligent response I've seen in a while. Shows a lot on your character.

"I know you are but what am I? [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Lord Levistus]

i stopped reading this a few pages ago.. too much time with my palm in front of my face wishing this would end and wondering why i was still reading.

VE had an issue, Was left his alliance to take the fall, done deal.. get over it, move on.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1292105759' post='2536771']
i stopped reading this a few pages ago.. too much time with my palm in front of my face wishing this would end and wondering why i was still reading.

VE had an issue, Was left his alliance to take the fall, done deal.. get over it, move on.
[/quote]
The warmongers amongst us are/were hoping for an MK like Athens is stupid but they are our friends and we will defend them type of stance from TKTB. Wasdrogan is good for leaving and shielding his alliance from war, but TKTB would not have been alone. Another world war averted

[LegendoftheSkies]

This was an admirable decision by WasDrogan no matter the case I should think.

Simply for that, I wish you luck Was.

Edited December 11, 2010 by LegendoftheSkies

[Schattenmann]

Dear VE,
6 weeks ago you demanded that CoJ expel a member for spying. It turned out that the admin of CNtel embedded himself in CoJ without our knowledge. In his capacity as CNtel supahspai, he was [i]offered[/i] access to VE's forum by one of your members, MrMuz. While you insisted with increasing fervor that we release our member for justice as update approached, and repeatedly demanded to know what CoJ intended to do about it, you repeatedly failed to elucidate what you intended to do about the spy in [i]your[/i] midst.

It is with some interest, then, that 6 weeks later I find that you are still running around demanding foreign governments release their members for you to ZI, but your own spy, MrMuz, is [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=377935"]still in Viridian Entente[/url]. If you are so concerned about security, why not first get your own house in order?

Respectfully your friend,
Schattenmann

Edited December 11, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1292106759' post='2536777']
Dear VE,
6 weeks ago you demanded that CoJ expel a member for spying. It turned out that the admin of CNtel embedded himself in CoJ without our knowledge. In his capacity as CNtel supahspai, he was offered access to VE's forum by one of your members, MrMuz. While you insisted with increasing fervor that we release our member for justice as update approached, and repeatedly demanded to know what CoJ intended to do about it, you repeatedly failed to elucidate what you intended to do about the spy in [i]your[/i] midst.

It is with some interest, then, that 6 weeks later I find that you are still running around demanding foreign governments release their members for you to ZI, but your own spy, MrMuz, is [url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=377935"]still in Viridian Entente[/url]. If you are so concerned about security, why not first get your own house in order?

Respectfully your friend,
Schattenmann
[/quote]
I'm impressed, so impressed that I had to go find out what elucidate means

Great post Schatt. You sir, just won the thread.

[Biazt]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of that particular situation, Schattenmann. Since that was quite a bit ago I'd have thought you would have figured it out by now. Think on it for a few moments, and the answer might just seem to "pop out" at you.

[Il Impero Romano]

As I noted in the first line of the reply you quoted, I'm a bit short on time so I haven't had a chance to go through every post here to see what was contested and what was not. Also, please excuse my brevity.

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1292104645' post='2536762']
Really? Jewel was contesting it in this very thread not long ago.[/quote]

The very opening of my conversation with her says otherwise, before I even had a chance to tell her of the issue myself:


[quote]<Impero[VE]> well, we seem to have a bit of an issue with your MoFA
<Impero[VE]> wasdragon
<Jewel|away> He told me he jokingly logged into something and that you guys hadnt demasked him
[/quote]
And later:

[quote][01:27] <DogsOfWar[TKTB]> i admit openly wasdrogan is in the wrong
[01:27] <DogsOfWar[TKTB]> and the fact he deserves to be punished

[01:19] <DogsOfWar[TKTB]> warchest infomation should not have been passed on , but the fault is not all wasdrogans he should have been demasked so this did not occur[/quote]

As you can see, nothing of materiality was contested, in fact the opposite is true, it was admitted. The discussion focused around limiting punishment and simply whether or not they wanted to release him in general.

Also I would like to thank DogsOfWar for his conversation. While we could not reach an agreement on mitigation, he showed both a good character and earnest effort. Despite the drama, I hold no ill will for TKTB and do in fact wish them the best of luck in the future.

[quote]
First off, is there any recording of said conversation? [/quote]

We were notified of the conversation shortly after it was done and over with, and because it was voice rather then text, that would be impossible.

[quote]
Multiple witnesses is good, but people will always be less reliable than the cold hard facts. And when you say multiple, is that more than two?[/quote]

The number of corroberating witnesses was two, and I will not be giving their names.

[quote]
And would you say they're generally with or against you, politically? [/quote]

I'm sure you know as well as I do that drawing such a dark line on that concept is difficult if not impossible. As to protect anonymity even by allusion, all I'll say on that is neither were from an alliance that is allied or that we even have any sort of diplomatic relationship with whatsoever.

[quote]
Now, with server logs, that's pretty concrete; assuming you won't share them here, can you at least confirm that you've shared them with relevant parties, and that they thus do exist?
[/quote]

As I related above, right from the start the facts of the issue were uncontested, so it was never an issue. Furthermore, no request for presentation of such was asked for. But yes, we do have a screen shot of the log in records as well as the sever info indicating the pages he viewed which were available upon request, both retrieved by the ever-moralistic Mr. Janova, who created, runs, and maintains the tool.

[NoFish]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292099149' post='2536686']
So its not just VE who has had info compromised but all the users of NORAD? If that is the case why is VE prosecuting this and not others? (honest question just wondering) Is it because it was a VE mask that was used?
[/quote]
I imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that, frankly, if Xiph was in charge of the whole thing we'd all be at war by now.

(PS - Yes, that means if you want more you should give Xiph more power.)