Backroom Extortion is Back

[tamerlane]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289247057' post='2506441']
It's funny to see that the excuse for this extortion already changed, now it's because MK received "[i]3 different, conflicting answers making our job that much harder![/i]" it's even more funny that some members already stopped to try explain and are now in the mode: "[i]Do something about it![/i]"
[/quote]

No, it hasn't changed. You received a rationale for our actions and a challenge to man up or shut up. Please, tell me about how the rest of the world looks through your truth-piercing Bizarro goggles.

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1289248443' post='2506465']
LOL well if nothing else RV brings entertainment. This has made my day.

[b]GL MK this was not the best thought out plan.[/b]
[/quote]
Or was it?

[caligula]

so the political machines have begun churning out propoganda. Interesting. This should be fun now that the cold propoganda war is over.
:3

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1289248210' post='2506461']
They went from no more excessive reps, to excessive reps for past crimes, to excessive reps for pre-emptively attacking during a war and are now at excessive reps for dropping trades. Imagine what they will try next.
[/quote]They've gotten so used to extorting free tech to inflate their levels, part of me wants to avoid blaming them for this, and to just chalk it up to some sort of addiction disorder.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289249324' post='2506483']
They've gotten so used to extorting free tech to inflate their levels, part of me wants to avoid blaming them for this, and to just chalk it up to some sort of addiction disorder.
[/quote]

Well we tried the narcissist route and found ourselves outgunned by CN's best and loudest.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289248998' post='2506478']
Well, up until now we haven't been talking about 3 different people speaking about an issue for hours, have we? We have been talking about the logs of the singular conversation in the OP. The only references to prior talks in those logs were made in regards to them expressing confusion over the nations classification and the inconsistency of prior statements, a sentiment which you sympathized with but did not elaborate on. If anything, the references therein indicate they [i]did [/i]try to do some fact finding [i]before [/i]they made an offer prior to this, but they were to no avail (something conceited by you). Thus, bringing us full circle to my original point.

For reference:
[/quote]

Does your original point have anything to do with an alliance paying every member of a trade circle for a dropped trade?

Whether or not the nation in question was a member, though a favourite topic in this thread, is beside the point. Even if he was a member and still is, compensating MK for a lost trade is !@#$%^&* and everyone here knows it.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Sal Paradise

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289247253' post='2506444']
I can see where you would think there was no confusion on your end, but try to view it from the perspective of the people you were speaking with. These statements were basically the points you let it rest on: <Rebel_Virginia> Like I said, this is more or less a [i]masked ghost[/i]...<Rebel_Virginia> He was a member, but a !@#$%* one.
[/quote]

As far as I'm concerned, ^ doesn't matter. The amount of money and tech is just too much. MK should of asked for 3 mil to pay for what was lost and be done with it. RV should have suggested it too - then if told "no" the logs would have been more impressive.

People deal with trades being dropped around Planet Bob all the time, including trade circle trades. Sometimes that includes losing 3 mil.

What's making this thread difficult for MK is - since that's the case - people wonder "so what's so special about MK in being able to demand something different? If it's NOT something MK would do normally, then what crime did NSO commit to deserve having to pay out 18 million (aka 4 shipments of 3 mil and 50 tech) in this situation?

Edited November 8, 2010 by White Chocolate

[Sephiroth]

If you know the guy won't be able to pay 15m and 250t without outside assistance that means the reps being asked are way to high, there shouldn't be a need for another alliance to pay it for him regardless of whether he used to be a member.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Rafael Nadal' timestamp='1289249107' post='2506481']
Or was it?
[/quote]
If the goal was to kill the image of MK pre Karma and start some grumbling across the board and perhaps get the pot boiling a bit more then I would say MK has been very successfull at that. If this was not the intention then id say no. Either way its been an interesting read. I must ask myself what would Archon do.

[Believland]

Oh Yev...

[Hereno]

NSO probably shouldn't have agreed to pay for that at all. Even if he was a member, they were flat out just "yeah sorry but we're not protecting him, he's not a member". At that point, MK should have just went "okay, that's cool" and got the 3m back from the nation in question. Either that, or beat it out of him. Regardless, I don't see why NSO should pay jack for anything, especially not more than the original 3M in question. I mean it's all said and done now that they agreed to pay, but it would've been interesting to see the results of them refusing to do so. I sure wouldn't have in their place.

All that said, I didn't read past page 5, so I may be terribly informed.

[ktarthan]

I would just like to chip in and tell people to stop throwing the word "extortion" around like it fits whatever negative context you want it to. Extortion has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of compensation asked for. So HoT, even if you only asked for 6m, in this situation, that'd [i]still[/i] be extortion! Please people, stop the proliferation of buzz words.

[Schattenmann]

I would say this was more a case of extortionation or extortionating.

[img]http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/the-terminator.jpg[/img]

[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"][b]NSO, you've been extortionated.[/b][/font]

Edited November 8, 2010 by Schattenmann

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1289250139' post='2506502']
I would say this was more a case of extortionation or extortionating.
[/quote]
That doesn't mean anything, but thanks for coming out.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1289249718' post='2506492']
If the goal was to kill the image of MK pre Karma and start some grumbling across the board and perhaps get the pot boiling a bit more then I would say MK has been very successfull at that. If this was not the intention then id say no. Either way its been an interesting read. I must ask myself what would Archon do.
[/quote]


I'm willing to bet he'd be laughing, would probably offer slightly lower payment (as he is most reasonable), then realize RV posted logs of his conversation on here, and then continue laughing.

Edited November 8, 2010 by tamerlane

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1289250015' post='2506499']
I would just like to chip in and tell people to stop throwing the word "extortion" around like it fits whatever negative context you want it to. Extortion has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of compensation asked for. So HoT, even if you only asked for 6m, in this situation, that'd [i]still[/i] be extortion! Please people, stop the proliferation of buzz words.
[/quote]Extortion does have everything to do with the amount asked for, and its relativity to how much damages were done.

Here, MK used what, arguably, is an offense of $3 million in damages against them, and used that as an excuse to throw their weight around and demand the equivalent of $30 million, 10 times more than the damages caused, damages caused by a party that at any rate was not even under the control of NSO, and whom NSO released to face the consequences of his actions.

This is extortion. It's a bit more than MK simply holding a gun to NSO's head, MK has a pretend excuse for holding a gun to their head, but it is still extortion.

Edited November 8, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[C Mos]

15mill + 250 tech? Come on now. Paying back the 3mill would have been alright but 15mill and 250 tech? A little overkill...

[Cager]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289247956' post='2506453']
You didn't "come back for the big win"?
[/quote]


I thought I came back after. Could be mistaken though. I can't access the boards to check

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1289245005' post='2506405']
Raising the bounty because of previous actions is not unheard of.
[/quote]

Sure, when an alliance actually does a new thing wrong. As opposed to in this case.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289250397' post='2506506']
Extortion does have everything to do with the amount asked for, and its relativity to how much damages were done.

Here, MK used what, arguably, is an offense of $3 million in damages against them, and used that as an excuse to throw their weight around and demand the equivalent of $30 million, 10 times more than the damages caused, damages caused by a party that at any rate was not even under the control of NSO, and whom NSO released to face the consequences of his actions.

This is extortion. It's a bit more than MK simply holding a gun to NSO's head, MK has a pretend excuse for holding a gun to their head, but it is still extortion.
[/quote]
Heh, I like how the equivalent of MK's demands have gone up from $20m (which is is) to $30m, somehow. I'm assuming it has something to do with witchcraft.

Anyways. Extortion is, in essence, obtaining goods from a third party via coersion. You might say that if one is entitled to those goods then it falls outside the range of extortion, but generally in the case of reps "entitled to" is entirely subjective. Honestly I don't care if what MK did was "extortion" - but that doesn't mean you can pull the "bigger man" routine, decrying MK's extortion while claiming you'd take an alternate, less harsh route of [i]extortion[/i].

I think the word you're looking for is "extortionate", or perhaps even "exorbitant". (Careful though, they're adjectives, not verbs, so adjust your complaints accordingly!)

Edit: For the record, I don't think it's extortion. I have no sympathy for NSO, as it appears they either have no idea how to negotiate, or had no intent to anyways.

Edited November 8, 2010 by ktarthan

[Fernando12]

So if an MK nation canceled trades without notice MK would pay? Logs seem to say they would pay if an MKer did something similar.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1289249501' post='2506487']
Does your original point have anything to do with an alliance paying every member of a trade circle for a dropped trade?

Whether or not the nation in question was a member, though a favourite topic in this thread, is beside the point. Even if he was a member and still is, compensating MK for a lost trade is !@#$%^&* and everyone here knows it.
[/quote]
Sal hit it on the head here. Even if the nation that left the trade circle was and is a fully-fledged member of NSO, the most MK could possibly be justified for asking for is the return of the 3M and/or the expulsion of the nation. Considering NSO explicitly stated they would not be harbouring him, I'm having a hard time seeing how they are in any way liable for the actions of that nation. Especially so since the damages caused to the MK nations came in such a roundabout way as losing revenue from losing a trade during a backcollect. NSO had nothing to do with that loss of revenue.

Edited November 8, 2010 by WorldConqueror

[lebubu]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289251500' post='2506519']
So if an MK nation canceled trades without notice MK would pay? Logs seem to say they would pay if an MKer did something similar.
[/quote]

There is a difference between canceling a trade and stealing money from us.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Thanks, RV. I do appreciate being in major logs for the first time.

Tungsten got it absolutely right on page 2 or 3 but I'll do a small recap nevertheless.

We approached NSO because one of their members had scammed us. There's no "not a member" "a masked ghost" or "perhaps a ghost". Lintwad, their former Emperor and Prophet, first told us that the guy was a full member. Then, two of RV's colleagues spent an hour and a half trying to argue that the guy had never been a member, despite the fact that there was [url=http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4428/lordrevanacolyte.jpg]a guy on their forums, with the same name, masked as a member[/url].

They said we would hear back from RV or Heggo and we, indeed, were contacted by RV an hour later. RV would go on to confirm that the guy [i]was a member[/i] and that they had $%&@ed up. Logs, posted by RV himself, confirms that and he says his two colleagues were in the wrong. Now, one could point out that it's a bit problematic when higher govt doesn't know who's a member and who isn't but hey.


As for the reparations themselves, we asked for token reparations. 3m-50t for each of the trade circle members, ammounting to 15m-250t, takes a single nation only a single aid cycle to pay. The very definition of "token". Yes, we held NSO responsible. What's interesting is that they did cold hard maths instead of protecting their member: should we pay 15m-250t or just throw the guy out, after all, he only has 130 levels of infrastructure. They decided to go with the cheaper solution. We refused. They would never try to bargain again through the whole ordeal.

Yet, through all of this, none of them took the time to [i]negotiate[/i]. We demanded 15m-250t because, get this, we know how negotiations usually work. Yet, the Siths did not. They spent all of the evening trying to lie through their teeth to avoid having to pay a single cent, contradicting each other many times in the process, and then just accepted our demands without even blinking (kinda showing that, for them too, it was a minimal ammount to pay).

Here's a lesson: next time, learn to negotiate. Of course, we'll ask for an higher figure. That's just how things work.

As a sidenote, to all those who scream that they won't trade with us, I'm quite confident that you're already not trading with us. Moreover, we don't pursue punitive damages from people who cancel on us after trading with us for some time. We'll seek retribution if you take up aid-for-trade and cancel [i]two days later[/i], scamming us like thieves.

That's about it.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[D34th]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289249086' post='2506480']
No, it hasn't changed. You received a rationale for our actions and a challenge to man up or shut up. Please, tell me about how the rest of the world looks through your truth-piercing Bizarro goggles.
[/quote]

Yeah it has, read the thread and you will see at least 3 different excuses, I know it's hard to find but they are there, a little hidden because of the [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks and insults against NSO but there.

My favorite, hands down, is that your alliance is asking NSO to pay punitive reparations because MK is trying to prevent the declination in world population.