Backroom Extortion is Back

[Manis B]

I cant understand why MK didnt have a protocol for this type of situation. I would assume this ring was set up before the back collect? Or at least 25 days before? But this situation went on for nearly a month and MK said nothing. What im gathering is these nations collected without a full trade set . They didnt bother to go out on thier own and find an emergency trade? I think we can all agree that a +1 happiness is better than nothing.

So really whats the issue here, a ghost took 3mil or a sanctioned alliance with an inept trade department?

My nation is 4+ years old, my oldest trade is 200 days, I have uranium and spices, and ive somehow managed to collect with full trade each time. Especially when I have 20+ days to do so.

[Shaazzam]

Correct me if I'm wrong. but doesn't this nation have the missing resources?
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=162668

I assume that there must have been some effort to try and bring this cat in as a temp trade, no? Because with them being a member of the AA and all, as a Trade Director I'd be busting ass trying to get s/he to help out the rest of the team.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Shaazzam' timestamp='1289242112' post='2506327']
Correct me if I'm wrong. but doesn't this nation have the missing resources?
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=162668

I assume that there must have been some effort to try and bring this cat in as a temp trade, no? Because with them being a member of the AA and all, as a Trade Director I'd be busting ass trying to get s/he to help out the rest of the team.
[/quote]
Of course it couldn't be as easy as making a quick search for the resources.

It had to be a NSO government conspiracy that was bent on crippling MK economically by disrupting this one trade circle and stealing $3mil.

Those damn evil NSO masterminds.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233890' post='2506147']
had to fix some errors in your propaganda...


Also, I just said that if NSO feels they have been singled out over this they are welcome to get one of their little backroom chat buddies that they have been plotting GOONS' demise with to come and try this with a far better situated alliance and see if we don't react the same way. All we are asking is that you deal with us straight from the very beginning. That is not a tall order and its not our fault for someone giving us the run around.

Let me show you how this should have been handled.


Thats not hwo this was handled. It was instead handled in the typical NSO fashion of flashing lights and posturing.
[/quote]
You do realize, it is BS like this that gives those backrooms chans legitimacy and support? It wasn't all that long ago the MK was one of those "backroom chan" alliances. I am disgusted, and that is hard to do as I have little morals to begin with.

[AirMe]

While I wouldn't call this extortion, I will say that MK's demands are out of line. I have never asked to be compensated when someone dropped out of my trade circle. It's the nature of the game. Besides, who gives a flying flip about 3 million dollars anymore?

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Shaazzam' timestamp='1289242112' post='2506327']
Correct me if I'm wrong. but doesn't this nation have the missing resources?
http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=162668

I assume that there must have been some effort to try and bring this cat in as a temp trade, no? Because with them being a member of the AA and all, as a Trade Director I'd be busting ass trying to get s/he to help out the rest of the team.
[/quote]

Yevgeni was probably embarrassed that his sure thing trade circle member was a flop. So instead of doing his job (finding people trades afaik) he decides to go shakedown NSO hoping to either extract a huge payday to appease the people he let down, or start a war to appease the people he's trying to impress.

Am I doing it right Sardonic?

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289242566' post='2506335']
While I wouldn't call this extortion, I will say that MK's demands are out of line. I have never asked to be compensated when someone dropped out of my trade circle. It's the nature of the game. Besides, who gives a flying flip about 3 million dollars anymore?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I think you're smart enough to realize this isn't about three million dollars, or the trade circle even. This was about the NSO, and the MK having power. They saw an opportunity to flex some muscle and get away with it. This is a power trip. Plain and simple as that.[/color]

Edited November 8, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[iamthey]

Guess I'll have to go and claim my 250 tech and 15 mil next time someone drops my TC and I've paid them for a harbor.

[Seerow]

NSO, I'm curious. The standing line is the guy was a masked ghost, and was supposed to have been removed as a member months ago.

What did he do months ago to be removed as a member? Realistically, the guy is still masked and still flying your AA, and as far as I can tell there's been no previous drama regarding the nation that would make you not want to recognize him, so why was he supposed to be removed? If he had resigned, he would have changed AA. If he had been kicked out, you would have demasked him or at least been attacking him as a ghost. I find it hard to swallow that a guy was sitting on your AA, with your mask, who has not been a member for months. So far the closest thing to an explanation Ive seen about this is "He's been inactive for months". Unless NSO regularly culls its members based on activity levels (which I'm pretty sure is not the case), I don't understand why this guy was not a member. If we could get some clarification on that I'd appreciate it.

In fact, I'm sure the whole situation would have been received a lot better if you had said "Oh we didn't realize he was scamming you, we're kicking him out of the alliance and letting you get your 3mil back out of him. Good luck finding a new trade!". Instead what our members got was a lot of evading the question and at the end a copout excuse.

In short [b]if he actually was a member but you were ditching him, why didn't you say so? If he actually was not a member, what caused this to be the case?[/b]

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1289241845' post='2506323']
You got Fernando supporting NSO here MK. I mean, wow.
[/quote]This "CB" is the one MK had to shelve for the Halloween rolling of The Legion. Its not hard to plant this "CB" on another alliance MK dont like.

It is a set up.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289242682' post='2506337']
[color="#0000FF"]I think you're smart enough to realize this is about three million dollars, or the trade circle even. This was about the NSO, and the MK having power. They saw an opportunity to flex some muscle and get away with it. This is a power trip. Plain and simple as that.[/color]
[/quote]

After reading the logs a second time....I can't really disagree with you. Crap like this happened to MK all the time between UJW and Karma....it saddens me to see them pulling similar acts. Hell, MK do you even remember when Toilet Seat threatened us with war over [b]ACCEPTING[/b] aid from a GPA member?

I really hate to agree with RV but this does classify as extortion. IT'S A DAMN TRADE CIRCLE.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1289242820' post='2506340']
NSO, I'm curious. The standing line is the guy was a masked ghost, and was supposed to have been removed as a member months ago.

What did he do months ago to be removed as a member? Realistically, the guy is still masked and still flying your AA, and as far as I can tell there's been no previous drama regarding the nation that would make you not want to recognize him, so why was he supposed to be removed? If he had resigned, he would have changed AA. If he had been kicked out, you would have demasked him or at least been attacking him as a ghost. I find it hard to swallow that a guy was sitting on your AA, with your mask, who has not been a member for months. So far the closest thing to an explanation Ive seen about this is "He's been inactive for months". Unless NSO regularly culls its members based on activity levels (which I'm pretty sure is not the case), I don't understand why this guy was not a member. If we could get some clarification on that I'd appreciate it.

In fact, I'm sure the whole situation would have been received a lot better if you had said "Oh we didn't realize he was scamming you, we're kicking him out of the alliance and letting you get your 3mil back out of him. Good luck finding a new trade!". Instead what our members got was a lot of evading the question and at the end a copout excuse.

In short [b]if he actually was a member but you were ditching him, why didn't you say so? If he actually was not a member, what caused this to be the case?[/b]
[/quote]
First, I don't know the answers to your questions but why is that even relevant?

If he was a full regular member of the alliance that had botched up a trade circle or stolen $3mil he would have been treated the same way, kicked and/or had his $3mil bill paid for him with apologies. The simple fact is that it wasn't that MK asked to be compensated for the actual loss, now they are demanding compensation for supposed time and inconvenience as well, which is just ridiculous considering that it has already been illustrated that the Minister of Trades (should have kept that LUEnited Nations guy, he probably could have done a better job) could have easily found a replacement from within the alliance itself.

From what I have seen there was no evading whatsoever. They approached a non-govt member and were told so and then they approached govt members and were told that he isn't a member. What is the complexity in that?

[Earogema]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1289242820' post='2506340']
NSO, I'm curious. The standing line is the guy was a masked ghost, and was supposed to have been removed as a member months ago.

What did he do months ago to be removed as a member? Realistically, the guy is still masked and still flying your AA, and as far as I can tell there's been no previous drama regarding the nation that would make you not want to recognize him, so why was he supposed to be removed? If he had resigned, he would have changed AA. If he had been kicked out, you would have demasked him or at least been attacking him as a ghost. I find it hard to swallow that a guy was sitting on your AA, with your mask, who has not been a member for months. So far the closest thing to an explanation Ive seen about this is "He's been inactive for months". Unless NSO regularly culls its members based on activity levels (which I'm pretty sure is not the case), I don't understand why this guy was not a member. If we could get some clarification on that I'd appreciate it.

In fact, I'm sure the whole situation would have been received a lot better if you had said "Oh we didn't realize he was scamming you, we're kicking him out of the alliance and letting you get your 3mil back out of him. Good luck finding a new trade!". Instead what our members got was a lot of evading the question and at the end a copout excuse.

In short [b]if he actually was a member but you were ditching him, why didn't you say so? If he actually was not a member, what caused this to be the case?[/b]
[/quote]
I still don't get why his membership matters.

If you found some guy on none, it would have been his fault and his fault alone. Why? Because a nation controls its own trades.

I mean, it's already odd enough that a trade minister is flexing his muscles diplomatically here. There should be NO situation in where a trade minister should be doing that.

I will admit that it's odd that various stances of membership arose, but it hardly deserves 15 million+250 tech.

The only reason I will admit that NSO even owes the 3 million possibly, is simply because it's a paltry sum that NSO can easily pay that nobody will care about.

[nippy]

I feel like I've just walked into the middle of a pie fight whilst donning a completely white suit (OOC: brownie points to those that get the reference)

ehm, yeah, there's enough yapping on both sides for me to sit this one out. Awesome kick-start, RV.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1289242820' post='2506340']
NSO, I'm curious. The standing line is the guy was a masked ghost, and was supposed to have been removed as a member months ago.

What did he do months ago to be removed as a member? Realistically, the guy is still masked and still flying your AA, and as far as I can tell there's been no previous drama regarding the nation that would make you not want to recognize him, so why was he supposed to be removed? If he had resigned, he would have changed AA. If he had been kicked out, you would have demasked him or at least been attacking him as a ghost. I find it hard to swallow that a guy was sitting on your AA, with your mask, who has not been a member for months. So far the closest thing to an explanation Ive seen about this is "He's been inactive for months". Unless NSO regularly culls its members based on activity levels (which I'm pretty sure is not the case), I don't understand why this guy was not a member. If we could get some clarification on that I'd appreciate it.

In fact, I'm sure the whole situation would have been received a lot better if you had said "Oh we didn't realize he was scamming you, we're kicking him out of the alliance and letting you get your 3mil back out of him. Good luck finding a new trade!". Instead what our members got was a lot of evading the question and at the end a copout excuse.

In short [b]if he actually was a member but you were ditching him, why didn't you say so? If he actually was not a member, what caused this to be the case?[/b]
[/quote]

Who cares about all of that? They should have to repay the 3 mill and that's it. It is a trade circle. Why does NSO have to pay 3 m and 50 tech per trade circle member over a dropped trade? It is extortion. It really doesn't matter how NSO acted in this situation unless they told you to flip off. Which they didn't do.

[Cager]

Either do something about how we're "evil overlords" and stop posturing on the boards or just deal with it.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Cager

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1289233427' post='2506133']
You must have missed Ardus' explanation of how to properly asses the cost, here you go for reference though:
[/quote]

you mean the !@#$%^&* explanation? the one that does not add up in the least since he also stated that part of the reason was NSO did not remove the illusion of protection from the scammer despite RV stated specifically that the scammer was demasked and no longer a member?

that one? right.

[quote name='Quiziotle' timestamp='1289233666' post='2506140']
Perhaps if you do not, under any circumstances, want to compensate us for monetary losses imposed by your alliance, you should try and keep your registered members from stealing our money -- or at the very least, should try not to lie about the status of their membership when they do so. Cheers.
[/quote]

can't wait for MK members who steal money (oh and most likely it has already happened or will happen in the future) to not be allowed to be kicked but instead for MK to have money demanded of them.

again, the last explanation you got was of the scammer being kicked and removed from membership. so regardless of the other 2 explanations, the last one should have satisfied ya'll. so it appears that had you gotten the explanation you wanted from the beginning you would have still extorted money. so trying to use the diplomatic screw-ups to cover an obvious attempt at extortion is just amusing.

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233890' post='2506147']
had to fix some errors in your propaganda...


Also, I just said that if NSO feels they have been singled out over this they are welcome to get one of their little backroom chat buddies that they have been plotting GOONS' demise with to come and try this with a far better situated alliance and see if we don't react the same way. All we are asking is that you deal with us straight from the very beginning. That is not a tall order and its not our fault for someone giving us the run around.

Let me show you how this should have been handled.


Thats not hwo this was handled. It was instead handled in the typical NSO fashion of flashing lights and posturing.
[/quote]

what i got from that little chart you put up was that MK is far too incompetent at handling trade circles to be capable of doing it themselves but instead need another alliance to do it for them and one not even on Aqua. hell from this whole extortion fiasco, all i have gotten is that Yev and MK are incompetent about trade circles.

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289234641' post='2506176']
It was never offered because, if I am not mistaken, you started out refusing to acknowledge the status of his membership. Notice how NSO was the one who offered up the 3mil and the temp trade in my scenario.
[/quote]

last i knew, if it is a scammer the typical response is:

Alliance A- Hey this guy scammed us Alliance B gov.

Alliance B- aiight, we won't protect him.

Alliance A- gotcha. we are going to hit him now. thanks.


not:

A- hey this guy scammed us.

B- aiight he is a ghost and we won't protect him.

A- but, but, but he is registered as a member.

B- heh. looks like a mistake. either way we won't protect him.

A- but he was registered as a member.

B- what does that matter? we stated he is all yours regardless of his past status, he is no longer a member and we won't protect him.

A- but since you lied and he was a member, you have to pay 3m/50t for that inconvenience.

B- whatever.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289243087' post='2506346']
First, I don't know the answers to your questions but why is that even relevant?

If he was a full regular member of the alliance that had botched up a trade circle or stolen $3mil he would have been treated the same way, kicked and/or had his $3mil bill paid for him with apologies. The simple fact is that it wasn't that MK asked to be compensated for the actual loss, now they are demanding compensation for supposed time and inconvenience as well, which is just ridiculous considering that it has already been illustrated that the Minister of Trades (should have kept that LUEnited Nations guy, he probably could have done a better job) could have easily found a replacement from within the alliance itself.

From what I have seen there was no evading whatsoever. They approached a non-govt member and were told so and then they approached govt members and were told that he isn't a member. What is the complexity in that?
[/quote]

I'm not trying to justify the demands, I honestly am not sure what Yev was thinking asking for that much. So don't try to get me involved with that.

I am asking out of my own curiosity why you have this elaborate story of a masked member on your AA not actually being a member, that makes no sense to anyone involved. If the guy is masked and on your AA he's a member. That's the point I'm getting at, and the weirdest thing that stuck out at me reading those logs and this thread. I was wondering if maybe there was some convoluted reason he was supposed to not be a member, but somehow stayed masked/on the AA with no repercussions, but I couldn't think of any likely scenario, so I asked.

As an aside, if I were to offer my guess as to a better way to handle things, had you rather than taking this to the OWF gone over Yev's head to IC (our Lord High Treasurer), or Lebubu, likely there could have been a settlement for less money. At this point with RV trying to drag MK through the mud over this, nobody will back down, and the arguments just get stranger and more fanatical from both sides as time goes on.


[quote]Who cares about all of that? They should have to repay the 3 mill and that's it. It is a trade circle. Why does NSO have to pay 3 m and 50 tech per trade circle member over a dropped trade? It is extortion. It really doesn't matter how NSO acted in this situation unless they told you to flip off. Which they didn't do.
[/quote]

Obviously I care or I wouldn't have asked. It doesn't justify anything that happened here, I just want a straightforward explanation because the idea of a masked member on your AA being a ghost is mind boggling to me, and I am genuinely curious. I don't get why this is hard to understand. You know that I've never been one to take part in PR battles and the like, I leave that to the people who are better at it. I am asking a question because something in this makes no sense to me and I want an answer.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Seerow

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1289242820' post='2506340']
NSO, I'm curious. The standing line is the guy was a masked ghost, and was supposed to have been removed as a member months ago.

What did he do months ago to be removed as a member? Realistically, the guy is still masked and still flying your AA, and as far as I can tell there's been no previous drama regarding the nation that would make you not want to recognize him, so why was he supposed to be removed? If he had resigned, he would have changed AA. If he had been kicked out, you would have demasked him or at least been attacking him as a ghost. I find it hard to swallow that a guy was sitting on your AA, with your mask, who has not been a member for months. So far the closest thing to an explanation Ive seen about this is "He's been inactive for months". Unless NSO regularly culls its members based on activity levels (which I'm pretty sure is not the case), I don't understand why this guy was not a member. If we could get some clarification on that I'd appreciate it.

In fact, I'm sure the whole situation would have been received a lot better if you had said "Oh we didn't realize he was scamming you, we're kicking him out of the alliance and letting you get your 3mil back out of him. Good luck finding a new trade!". Instead what our members got was a lot of evading the question and at the end a copout excuse.

In short [b]if he actually was a member but you were ditching him, why didn't you say so? If he actually was not a member, what caused this to be the case?[/b]
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]He missed three check ins and therefore was to have his mask removed. Somewhere along the line that failed to happen. But that's more or less the case. So although he was technically still a member, as I acknowledged earlier, he was not considered to be one for all intents and purposes. Anyone with a reasonable head would be capable of seeing that, but reason and understanding have little do here. It works for MK in this instance to be pigheaded and incessant about this, however. I saw that and gave you the answer you wanted to hear, although it was by no means the truth. But you get your money. That's all you wanted.

Also, for your last few lines, we did exactly that. We acknowledged that he was no longer and member and he was on his own. It's early on in the logs actually. Have a look!

<Rebel_Virginia> I see.
<Rebel_Virginia> Well, I ain't too fond of idiots like that taking money.
<Rebel_Virginia> Not sure what he was thinking, but we won't be protecting him. He's on his own.
<Yevgeni> Your subordinates didn't inform you of our demands, did they?
<Rebel_Virginia> Yes, you want him to pay 3 mil and 50 tech to each of those he wronged, no?
<Yevgeni> Him or you. We consider NSO responsible as he was, up until a hour ago, one of your members by all standards.

Fairly standard procedure, I was hoping it'd be the end of it, but it was clear from there that was not what MK wanted to hear, and it was clear that him not being a member anymore was not a good enough answer for MK. So I tried to explain the situation, but got tied up in semantics with MK, who were trying to justify their pigheadedness. And that's all there is to that.

We wanted to drop him once we saw what he'd done, and we'd have covered the three million had you asked. But you wouldn't allow that. You wanted three million and fifty tech each for this, and there was no negotiating. You can deny it all you want, but we all know the truth.[/color]

[Ashok]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1289242820' post='2506340']
NSO, I'm curious. The standing line is the guy was a masked ghost, and was supposed to have been removed as a member months ago.

What did he do months ago to be removed as a member? Realistically, the guy is still masked and still flying your AA, and as far as I can tell there's been no previous drama regarding the nation that would make you not want to recognize him, so why was he supposed to be removed? If he had resigned, he would have changed AA. If he had been kicked out, you would have demasked him or at least been attacking him as a ghost. I find it hard to swallow that a guy was sitting on your AA, with your mask, who has not been a member for months. So far the closest thing to an explanation Ive seen about this is "He's been inactive for months". Unless NSO regularly culls its members based on activity levels (which I'm pretty sure is not the case), I don't understand why this guy was not a member. If we could get some clarification on that I'd appreciate it.

In fact, I'm sure the whole situation would have been received a lot better if you had said "Oh we didn't realize he was scamming you, we're kicking him out of the alliance and letting you get your 3mil back out of him. Good luck finding a new trade!". Instead what our members got was a lot of evading the question and at the end a copout excuse.

In short [b]if he actually was a member but you were ditching him, why didn't you say so? If he actually was not a member, what caused this to be the case?[/b]
[/quote]

We have bi-monthly check-ins that are mandatory if a nation fails to sign into these check ins on three different occasions in a row that nation is removed from the alliance since July when he went inactive he has missed 8 therefore he is not a member. Which is what I told Yevgeni and Epiphanus who then said "I don't care what your rules are." To my face. Because they did not care and just wanted their money and tech it did not matter what we said unless we agreed or blatantly said no (which we did to which we received veiled threats). I hope that clarifies it for the rest of the world.

[potato]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289242830' post='2506341']
This "CB" is the one MK had to shelve for the Halloween rolling of The Legion. Its not hard to plant this "CB" on another alliance MK dont like.

It is a set up.
[/quote]

Is that from one of your sources again? Or did you pull this theory out of your ass?

[citizenkane]

It's funny this.

I seem to recall that NSO was very unreasonable with RoK. I.e.

-Hoo says "do this and we will go to war"
NSO did it.

That's rather unreasonable, and I applaud MK for treating NSO with the contempt they deserve, and showing that NSO isnt controlling planet bob with strings.

[Jeb the Wise]

I have 2 words for RV
"Drama Queen"

None the less, thanks for the entertainment.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289236599' post='2506215']
from moralists
[/quote]
To extortionists

[Alterego]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289243373' post='2506349']
Who cares about all of that? They should have to repay the 3 mill and that's it. It is a trade circle. [b]Why does NSO have to pay 3 m and 50 tech per trade circle member over a dropped trade?[/b] It is extortion. It really doesn't matter how NSO acted in this situation unless they told you to flip off. Which they didn't do.
[/quote]
I believe this is the answer.

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289240860' post='2506301']
It would appear that the amount owed is dependent upon the number of hurdles that have to be jumped to get an answer.
[/quote]

Your sig is becoming the truth, well 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Alterego