Backroom Extortion is Back

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='JBone' timestamp='1289238583' post='2506257']
[b]Bad metaphor is bad. Perhaps he was fired and just never turned in his uniform and name tag. Maybe you should have checked that out before you bought your car.[/b]

Once NSO clarified the status of this member, (former member or ghost??) as someone who had broken NSO policy and would therefore not be protected by NSO, MKs path was clear. Ask him to pay up or face the wrath of the mighty MK. NSO even volunteered to assist.

He was not government, so how can NSO be held responsible once his membership and protection have been revoked?

I also see some suggesting that the amounts of cash and tech asked for are somehow compensation for MK being given the run around. Do we now have the precedent of reps because you did not get what you consider a clear and timely answer to a question.

[b]HOW DARE YOU NSO! DON'T YOU KNOW WHO WE ARE?
[/b]
FFS.... you have really gotten full of yourselves.

Good job MK.

....and the guy that keeps saying it was an NSO sanctioned plot to foul up a back collect, yea that makes sense, especially when NSO cut the guy loose and volunteered to help attack him. Wheels on [i]that[/i] bus go round and round.......
[/quote]


Yea, because whenever I have bought a car, I have walked in, went up to the sales man and asked him if he's employed by the company. Even though he's got an employee badge on and uniform on.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233890' post='2506147']
Let me show you how this should have been handled.

[quote]Pip- Is Lord revan a member?
NSO - Yes.
Pip - OK. Well we need to discuss this because he just stole 3mil from a group of MKers who were counting on him for their timely collection

NSO - Howabout 3mil [b]+ we help you find new trades/give you a temp trade so they don't get screwed. [/b]
Pip - Sounds great.

/end of discussion.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Bolded part is patently ridiculous.

[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1289234164' post='2506154']
So for future reference folks, keep in mind if you discuss something with RV in backroom channels, there's a big chance it'll end up plastered here if he doesn't like what you have to say.
[/quote]

What a surprising bit of information that nobody ever knew before.

[Branimir]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289238587' post='2506258']You were looking for bait and you clearly led that conversation on to manipulate the response you have been searching for for so long. That is such a weak line "clerical error". You're pitiful.[/quote]
Well, if he led your guys along in that convo to get what he wants from them, Id be more inclined to characterize him as capable, not pitiful.

Though rather I would say that convo, being presented here in full length (I presume) is enough of a basis for others to form their own opinions about the participants. RV didn't put words in anybodies mouth in that convo, they said what they wanted on their own inclination.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Branimir

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1289239035' post='2506262']
Bolded part is patently ridiculous.

[/quote]


Yes, I should never expect NSO to do anything that could be considered remotely helpful.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1289239035' post='2506262']
What a surprising bit of information that nobody ever knew before.
[/quote]

Seriously. [img]http://forums.coj-cn.co.cc/Smileys/expanded/qq.gif[/img] RV has been using logs on the OWF since 2007.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289238587' post='2506258']
Oh quit this pitiful display, its quite unbecoming of you RV. You were looking for bait and you clearly led that conversation on to manipulate the response you have been searching for for so long. That is such a weak line "clerical error". You're pitiful.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Yes, it was a clerical error. Someone who should have been unmasked was not, and was then forgotten. It happens all the time. I'm sorry we cannot all be as anal retentive as MK's administrators, but it's the truth.

Also, we're looking for bait? Bait for what? To get MK to come threaten us to make you look bad? No, you do that well enough on your own. If people can at the very least have solid evidence your true colors these days, I'll consider this a success.[/color]

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233890' post='2506147']
Thats not hwo this was handled. It was instead handled in the typical NSO fashion of flashing lights and posturing.
[/quote]

Some people are so equivocal and annoying that they are barely worth trying to engage in diplomacy, because all you will get is the runaround anyway. I know my past experiences with mhawk were a deciding factor in my decision not to talk to him or TPF at all before rolling them last year, after learning of a certain plot he had made against us.

My experiences with NSO have been just about as bad. They are not a fun bunch to talk to at all, and my past diplomatic dealings with them have left me with a strong desire to lock and load and kick the living crap out of them. Turns out, NSO treats everyone that way, and that's why they are a perennially beatdown alliance ad nearly everyone loathes them.

As far as extortion goes, I remember when NSO (Ivan himself) attempted to extort 2,000 tech from Athens after we accepted Banned Member, because Banned Member had still been looking at some old forum that NSO hadn't demasked him on. I told Ivan that we weren't paying and if he wanted to go to war over it, we were ready to nuke the living hell out of NSO. I don't recall talking about it on the forums at all at the time, though.

This is blatant extortion. MK knows that it's blatant extortion. And you know, if this had been done to some decent alliance, I would be disappointed in MK a lot right now. But it wasn't done to a decent alliance. It was done to NSO. NSO, this is the price you pay for your own attempts at extortion and various other diplomatic malfeasances over the time you have been alive. This is the price you pay for blowing smoke at someone with a lot of nukes and an itchy trigger finger. This is the price you pay for trying to play Machiavelli and showing no long-term loyalty whatsoever to your allies. It does eventually catch up with you.

[DevastationStation]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289236897' post='2506223']
nah it's dead
[/quote]


Extremely valid argument, well done, sir.

Anyway, the ridiculous assertion that NSO did this purposely, to 'screw' some backcollects from 4, count them, 4 members of MK is absolutely ridiculous. Truly, the Sith are as devious as anything Bob has ever encountered. Well done, Sith.

Really, though? 15 million and 250 tech for an obvious oversight? Dangerous precedent being set here, tread carefully.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289239068' post='2506263']
Well, if he led your guys along in that convo to get what he wants from them, Id be more inclined to characterize him as capable, not pitiful.

Though rather I would say that convo, being presented here in full length (I presume) is enough of a basis for others to form their own opinions about the participants. RV didn't put words in anybodies mouth in that convo, they said what they wanted on their own inclination.
[/quote]

Oh no, its cunningly pitiful. I don't think the conversation does anything remarkable for garnering sentiment beyond the attendees of the little backroom chat posse that has met occasionally to discuss the destruction of PB and MK.

[Mason]

I don't usually comment on debates such as this, but given that I work in a business world and have a pretty reasonable understanding of how things work, I have to share an outsiders opinion.

On the part of NSO, it's not MK's fault that your administration is failing to do it's job by maintaining NSO's current member roster. Nor is it their place to see a known NSO member still carrying your AA and registered as a NSO member on your forums, to decipher if he truly is or not. If you let that slip, you carry the burden that goes with it...which in this case is the fact that you are accountable for your members actions. You didn't intend for him to still be a member, but he was by all accounts, regardless of your post-statement that he wasn't. This is an opportunity to audit your alliance and clean things up a bit.

On the part of MK, expecting the payment you demanded for each member of the trade circle is a little extreme. I can understand and justify payment for a member who left without warning. But, if you are going to have a policy of making such demands in the event this happens again, perhaps you should draft a policy and share it publicly with anyone involved in one of your trade rings. People have the right to understand the consequences if they don't meet their obligations, and the choice to not participate. Considering that you gave no such prior warning, the right thing to do would be to suck it up, take the loss, and move on...taking steps such as I described above to protect yourselves in the event of another situation.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1289234164' post='2506154']
So for future reference folks, keep in mind if you discuss something with RV in backroom channels, there's a big chance it'll end up plastered here if he doesn't like what you have to say.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Logs will only be shared when it is clear to me that whatever discussions took place were done without either integrity or honor. The power structure abusing its power behind closed doors usually fits the description. People know that most discussions I have with them will be safe, unless something fishy is going on. If that's the case, you can bet its going to wind up here.

What happened this morning is the reason why some people do not want these types of conversations to go public. They want to be able to get away with such rubbish without anyone knowing it ever happened. Well, you're getting away with it, but you're caught. People know what's up now.[/color]

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289234472' post='2506169']
Lintwad should just post his logs then. I haven't read them.
[/quote]

To be fair, in my observations of the sith the further you get up the chain the more concise, reasonable and direct the people are. Nice to see you out and about Ivan, please come back more often.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Zhaan' timestamp='1289239414' post='2506272']taking steps such as I described above to protect yourselves[/quote]
thanks man they look like some pretty sound advice we definietly will be

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1289239308' post='2506269']
This is blatant extortion. MK knows that it's blatant extortion. And you know, if this had been done to some decent alliance, I would be disappointed in MK a lot right now. But it wasn't done to a decent alliance. It was done to NSO. NSO, this is the price you pay for your own attempts at extortion and various other diplomatic malfeasances over the time you have been alive. This is the price you pay for blowing smoke at someone with a lot of nukes and an itchy trigger finger. This is the price you pay for trying to play Machiavelli and showing no long-term loyalty whatsoever to your allies. It does eventually catch up with you.
[/quote]


And what is the price for cowardly and sycophantic head-turning such as yours? The Hell you went through for years until you got big enough to turn things around. Get over yourself. First they came for NSO, and I did nothing because I was not a Sith . . .

The promise of Vox was equality, the delivery of Karma is power-change.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1289236361' post='2506208']
"If you aren't fluent in a dead language you're ignorant"

Never change Ivan.
[/quote]

Yes, tautologically. But I love your everlasting commitment to the notion of equality.

[Alterego]

Thell them to get lost its only MK.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1289239634' post='2506277']
Yes, tautologically. But I love your everlasting commitment to the notion of equality.
[/quote]
Wait. Are you suggesting the words in the quote marks are what I believe?

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Zhaan' timestamp='1289239414' post='2506272']
I don't usually comment on debates such as this, but given that I work in a business world and have a pretty reasonable understanding of how things work, I have to share an outsiders opinion.

On the part of NSO, it's not MK's fault that your administration is failing to do it's job by maintaining NSO's current member roster. Nor is it their place to see a known NSO member still carrying your AA and registered as a NSO member on your forums, to decipher if he truly is or not. If you let that slip, you carry the burden that goes with it...which in this case is the fact that you are accountable for your members actions. You didn't intend for him to still be a member, but he was by all accounts, regardless of your post-statement that he wasn't. This is an opportunity to audit your alliance and clean things up a bit.

On the part of MK, expecting the payment you demanded for each member of the trade circle is a little extreme. I can understand and justify payment for a member who left without warning. But, if you are going to have a policy of making such demands in the event this happens again, perhaps you should draft a policy and share it publicly with anyone involved in one of your trade rings. People have the right to understand the consequences if they don't meet their obligations, and the choice to not participate. Considering that you gave no such prior warning, the right thing to do would be to suck it up, take the loss, and move on...taking steps such as I described above to protect yourselves in the event of another situation.
[/quote]

I just wnat to note that the policy is not if a person drops we will seek compensation. Its if they accept money after agreeing to join a circle and fail to join that circle (or immediately delete the trades), we have a problem. I also want to add that I find this post to be the most reasonable so far.

Edited November 8, 2010 by tamerlane

[Earogema]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289238141' post='2506249']
They are secretly doing that now, desperately reading the treaty lines and trying to figure out if they whine moreon the forums if that will provide the leverage they desire to separate some of our allies from us and throw the treaty web in their favor.
[/quote]
So...what you guys did before Karma?

I mean come on.

Also this is really stupid MK. Trades are a nation's own private thing. I know that larger alliances have more collectivist mentalities when it comes to economic regulation but NEVER should a trade minister have to come in and demand money for a canceled trade. At best I would agree that NSO owes you 3 million. That's it. It's a nation's personal responsibility to look for temp trades right before the back collect. If you can't be bothered to do that, then you deserve to take the hit.

I mean, it's not like MK is an alliance with many active members who could be called upon to temp trade long enough for the back collect right?

I mean hell, I go to #mushroom to get my own temps sometimes since I don't have a TC and just trade with individual nations.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Earogema

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1289239626' post='2506276']
And what is the price for cowardly and sycophantic head-turning such as yours? The Hell you went through for years until you got big enough to turn things around. Get over yourself.

First they came for NSO, and I did nothing because I was not a Sith . . .
[/quote]

I have [u]never[/u] been a coward or a sycophant. If you have been paying attention at all in the last 3 years, you will know that.

[Mr. Teets]

[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1289234164' post='2506154']So for future reference folks, keep in mind if you discuss something with RV in backroom channels, there's a big chance it'll end up plastered here if he doesn't like what you have to say.
[/quote]

Don't say anything that paints you in a bad light and you don't have to worry if it gets posted on the OWF. It's pretty simple really.


Poor show MK, those nations can't go one cycle with less than ideal trades? I've had bad trades for over a year, how much do you think you could get me from the alliances the members who deleted on me were from?

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1289240023' post='2506283']
So...what you guys did before Karma?

I mean come on.

Also this is really stupid MK. Trades are a nation's own private thing. I know that larger alliances have more collectivist mentalities when it comes to economic regulation but NEVER should a trade minister have to come in and demand money for a canceled trade. At best I would agree that NSO owes you 3 million. That's it. It's a nation's personal responsibility to look for temp trades right before the back collect. If you can't be bothered to do that, then you deserve to take the hit.

I mean, it's not like MK is an alliance with many active members who could be called upon to temp trade long enough for the back collect right?

I mean hell, I go to #mushroom to get my own temps sometimes since I don't have a TC and just trade with individual nations.
[/quote]

We paid this guy to perform a service. Its the same thing as a tech deal. If we pay a tech seller in another alliance 3mil for 100 tech and that seller takes our money and is from what we can see by forum status and in game AA part of that alliance, we are gonna come knocking on that alliances door for our tech/money and they are going to be responsible Just as we would be if someone did that in our AA.

Edited November 8, 2010 by tamerlane

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1289240146' post='2506284']
I have [u]never[/u] been a coward or a sycophant. If you have been paying attention at all in the last 3 years, you will know that.
[/quote]

I find your uneven application of justice based on the relationships between the victim of this extortion and yourself, yourself and the extortionists, and the victims and your percepton of their relationship to the world to be cowardly and sycophantic.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1289239308' post='2506269']
Some people are so equivocal and annoying that they are barely worth trying to engage in diplomacy, because all you will get is the runaround anyway. I know my past experiences with mhawk were a deciding factor in my decision not to talk to him or TPF at all before rolling them last year, after learning of a certain plot he had made against us.

My experiences with NSO have been just about as bad. They are not a fun bunch to talk to at all, and my past diplomatic dealings with them have left me with a strong desire to lock and load and kick the living crap out of them. Turns out, NSO treats everyone that way, and that's why they are a perennially beatdown alliance ad nearly everyone loathes them.

As far as extortion goes, I remember when NSO (Ivan himself) attempted to extort 2,000 tech from Athens after we accepted Banned Member, because Banned Member had still been looking at some old forum that NSO hadn't demasked him on. I told Ivan that we weren't paying and if he wanted to go to war over it, we were ready to nuke the living hell out of NSO. I don't recall talking about it on the forums at all at the time, though.

This is blatant extortion. MK knows that it's blatant extortion. And you know, if this had been done to some decent alliance, I would be disappointed in MK a lot right now. But it wasn't done to a decent alliance. It was done to NSO. NSO, this is the price you pay for your own attempts at extortion and various other diplomatic malfeasances over the time you have been alive. This is the price you pay for blowing smoke at someone with a lot of nukes and an itchy trigger finger. This is the price you pay for trying to play Machiavelli and showing no long-term loyalty whatsoever to your allies. It does eventually catch up with you.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You know, I wasn't around in NSO during the Banned Member affair, but had I know about that I'd have been against it. And if it's true, we were wrong to do so as far as I'm concerned. I don't like extortion, plain and simple. Don't matter who is doing it. But it's in the past now, the distant past, and if you think that's who we are today you're mistaken.

As for us handling this badly and treating everyone we talk to like crud, you're also wrong. Most people can find us to be quite cordial. The only time we can be otherwise is when we feel we're being wronged, but most the time all of us, myself included, can be quite reasonable and courteous. And I'll agree, Ashok and Kevin could have handled it better, but they ain't the most experienced FA hands we got. They were outdone, as simple as that. They weren't looking to be difficult, they just aren't as experienced as some others, and MK wasn't exactly being easy itself.

That said, if you believe that if MK isn't given the respect it feels it is entitled to then it deserved a bigger cut, there's something wrong with your thinking. Since it seems to me that your choir line now is that "MK was disrespected." Well, forgive me if I'm not shedding any tears. I haven't seen a respectable MK member in many moons now. So get over yourselves.

And Zhaan, if you read the logs you'll see I said exactly that. Although he shouldn't have been a member, he was still masked. So although what we got is what I like to call a 'masked ghost,' as it is only the result of administrative oversight, he was still technically a member. That's all MK needed to justify this extortion to itself, so that it's alright on their conscience. Me, I'd have been more understanding. I suppose being on the losing side for years now has given me a sense of compassion and fairness that MK seems to just simply have lost. Then again, I'm not one to compromise on principles I've fought and paid dearly for. I guess that sets me apart in this world. I'm one of the few remaining that hasn't betrayed themselves.[/color]

[Earogema]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289240355' post='2506288']
We paid this guy to perform a service. Its the same thing as a tech deal. If we pay a tech seller in another alliance 3mil for 100 tech and that seller takes our money and is from what we can see by forum status and in game AA part of that alliance, we are gonna come knocking on that alliances door for our tech/money and they are going to be responsible.
[/quote]
Yeah for 3 million. That's it. If you're going to pay some newbie who doesn't even have a harbor yet there's risk involved that he's an idiot. He's new. He doesn't know how important trades are. Holding all of NSO responsible for funds you lost because YOU were irresponsible and couldn't find a temp is nonsensical.