Backroom Extortion is Back

[abdur]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289232255' post='2506119']
We're soo......[i]EVIL[/i]

MUAHHAHAHAHAHHA

[img]http://www.flix66.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Megamind-BO.jpg[/img]

To those spinning this, let me make a few things clear.

NSO was not approached because the member ruined a trade circle, NSO was approached because a [i][b]registered[/b][/i] member on their forums took money from us as part of an agreement to join a trade circle then deliberately violated the terms of that agreement. Then when we go to NSO to find out what is going on, NSO proceeds to drag us through the dirt over answering a very simple question: Is Revan a member? We received 3 different, conflicting answers making our job that much harder. They worked hard to dig their hole on this one and the outcome should be of no surprise to anyone here.

This is not about ruining a trade circle, this is about stealing and then proceeding to smokescreen the truth. Revan was a member, he was registered on their forums, and there is absolutely no reason why we should believe NSO's account that "oh well he did some bad things and shouldnt have still been masked" as being a reasonable excuse especially given their role in that little social group that sits in their little sandbox talking about how much cooler they are than the other kids on the playground.
[/quote]
You still could have gotten the money from the nation once NSO declared him a ghost. It is abundantly evident that this was not sponsored by NSO.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289231068' post='2506101']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm surprised too, but I'm sure it would have had we not agreed to pay. Then MK would be getting an even larger chunk of flesh, and their buddies would get their share in the loot.[/color]
[/quote]

Because we certainly have a long history of acting on weak CB's simply out of bloodlust for alliances, right? I also find it hilarious that you think we'd need allies to properly defeat your alliance as well.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1289233075' post='2506129']
The real theft is the exuberant amount of money required to placate MK. Repaying 3m, fine. Making a profit off an unfortunate circumstance - unacceptable.
[/quote]

You must have missed Ardus' explanation of how to properly asses the cost, here you go for reference though:

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289222391' post='2506017']
An appropriate reparation is not measured by its equivalence to the damage caused. It is measured by its ability to deter the violation in the future. A proper reparation will include both compensatory damages and punitive damages, at least here on the small scale. The former of those two types becomes impossible on the large scale (global war reparations).

Here an individual, protected by NSO for all intents and purposes, deliberately gamed multiple nations to his own benefit. It is only appropriate that he pay something back to every individual wronged, and then some..
[/quote]

[Lusitan]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289232777' post='2506124']
Anyone who thinks they have the moral high ground when it comes to stealing then lying about it is welcome to give this a go and see if we don't treat you any differently.
[/quote]

It doesn't really matter whether Revan was a member of the alliance or not or if NSO decided to keep him. Extracting 15 million and 250 tech is abusing your position by anyone's standards - and they used to be also yours back in the day you were the poor beaten up underdog.

That said, and while I understand that you might want 3 million out of NSO because the agreement was broken and you couldn't get a satisfactory answer about the member's erm.. membership. 650% of the value (on a 3million/100 tech basis) as fee is plain abuse. If you can't see that anymore, that says alot of what is left of your common sense.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1289233075' post='2506129']
The real theft is the exuberant amount of money required to placate MK. Repaying 3m, fine. Making a profit off an unfortunate circumstance - unacceptable.
[/quote]

Not when you consider the hurdles that had to be jumped just to get a very simple answer from NSO. Perhaps if it had been properly handled from the beginning, this would not have been the issue.


[quote name='abdur' timestamp='1289233136' post='2506130']
You still could have gotten the money from the nation once NSO declared him a ghost. It is abundantly evident that this was not sponsored by NSO.
[/quote]

There is no guarantee of that and this is not the case of whether it was sponsored, its a case of how it was handled.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289232255' post='2506119']
We're soo......[i]EVIL[/i]

MUAHHAHAHAHAHHA

[img]http://www.flix66.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Megamind-BO.jpg[/img]

To those spinning this, let me make a few things clear.

NSO was not approached because the member ruined a trade circle, NSO was approached because a [i][b]registered[/b][/i] member on their forums took money from us as part of an agreement to join a trade circle then deliberately violated the terms of that agreement. Then when we go to NSO to find out what is going on, NSO proceeds to drag us through the dirt over answering a very simple question: Is Revan a member? We received 3 different, conflicting answers making our job that much harder. They worked hard to dig their hole on this one and the outcome should be of no surprise to anyone here.

This is not about ruining a trade circle, this is about stealing and then proceeding to smokescreen the truth. Revan was a member, he was registered on their forums, and there is absolutely no reason why we should believe NSO's account that "oh well he did some bad things and shouldnt have still been masked" as being a reasonable excuse especially given their role in that little social group that sits in their little sandbox talking about how much cooler they are than the other kids on the playground.
[/quote]
Yeah, I'm going to step in right here and tell you that this is a bunch of !@#$%^&*.

Regardless of whether or not he was or was not a member the only thing he did was take $3mil. Period. Just because you got your panties in a wad over it doesn't mean that it was an official NSO action or that NSO government should be responsible for paying for your hurt feelings.

Normal protocol would have had you approach NSO, tell them that this guy took $3mil from you and that you intend to get it back from him, by whatever means necessary. In no way, shape or form should this have escalated to every member of the supposed trade circle receiving the original amount stolen [i]plus[/i] 50 tech on top of it. That is just ludicrous.

Anyway, as I told the NSO government this morning when I logged on to see this fiasco, I would have told you to !@#$ in one hand and wish in the other and find out which one fills up first before I would have given you a penny. But that's just me.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233533' post='2506136']
There is no guarantee of that and this is not the case of whether it was sponsored, its a case of how it was handled.
[/quote]
You're right, you should have been told to hit bricks. I am embarrassed to be associated with this conclusion.

[Diogenes]

Perhaps if you do not, under any circumstances, want to compensate us for monetary losses imposed by your alliance, you should try and keep your registered members from stealing our money -- or at the very least, should try not to lie about the status of their membership when they do so. Cheers.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='abdur' timestamp='1289233136' post='2506130']
You still could have gotten the money from the nation once NSO declared him a ghost. It is abundantly evident that this was not sponsored by NSO.
[/quote]
Why should we even believe an alliance with such a long history of being duplicitous? It wouldn't surprise me if he was ordered to break the trades after NSO gov found out he was trading with MK.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Quiziotle' timestamp='1289233666' post='2506140']
Perhaps if you do not, under any circumstances, want to compensate us for monetary losses imposed by your alliance, you should try and keep your registered members from stealing our money -- or at the very least, should try not to lie about the status of their membership when they do so. Cheers.
[/quote]
So this was imposed upon you officially by the NSO now? So every "registered member" of the MK forum now acts in full accordance and with the full authority of the MK government?

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233533' post='2506136']
Not when you consider the hurdles that had to be jumped just to get a very simple answer from NSO. Perhaps if it had been properly handled from the beginning, this would not have been the issue.
[/quote]

Indeed, I thought for sure they would have learned that after the war with ROK but that would eliminate this jewel of entertainment. A touch high on the reps IMHO but hey you got em, enjoy being on top of the mountain as long as you can.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1289233427' post='2506133']
You must have missed Ardus' explanation of how to properly asses the cost, here you go for reference though:
[/quote]

No. I read it, but it was quickly dismissed as garbage. While Ardus is surely welcome to his opinion, it does not mean he acts as the final decider on what is and is not acceptable. Come on. While I respect Ardus' experience, he is not the unchallenged authority on everything.

Regardless of the degree of discipline an alliance has, there will always be a member who acts outside acceptability. At which point, it is not uncommon for that alliance to relinquish the membership of that nation. The nation is then responsible for his or her actions which caused the removal. It is not generally acceptable to hold an alliance accountable for actions it clearly does not support. That is downright silly. I suppose anytime a MK nation goes nuke rogue, we should be looking to see MK pay for entire damages caused by that nation, eh?

Edited November 8, 2010 by Wad of Lint

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289233670' post='2506141']
Why should we even believe an alliance with such a long history of being duplicitous? It wouldn't surprise me if he was ordered to break the trades after NSO gov found out he was trading with MK.
[/quote]
Yes, this is exactly what happened.

You have it here first, folks! The NSO is so obsessed with MK et al that they monitor every potential trade in the hopes of finding someone with links to MK so that they can take money from them and then not follow through.

Brilliant.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1289233459' post='2506134']
It doesn't really matter whether Revan was a member of the alliance or not or if NSO decided to keep him. Extracting 15 million and 250 tech is abusing your position by anyone's standards - and they used to be also yours back in the day you were the poor beaten up underdog.

That said, and while I understand that you might want 3 million out of NSO because the agreement was broken and you couldn't get a satisfactory answer about the member's erm.. membership. 650% of the value (on a 3million/[b]50[/b] tech basis) as fee is plain abuse. If you can't see that anymore, that says alot of what is left of your common sense.
[/quote]

had to fix some errors in your propaganda...


Also, I just said that if NSO feels they have been singled out over this they are welcome to get one of their little backroom chat buddies that they have been plotting GOONS' demise with to come and try this with a far better situated alliance and see if we don't react the same way. All we are asking is that you deal with us straight from the very beginning. That is not a tall order and its not our fault for someone giving us the run around.

Let me show you how this should have been handled.
[quote]
Pip- Is Lord revan a member?
NSO - Yes.
Pip - OK. Well we need to discuss this because he just stole 3mil from a group of MKers who were counting on him for their timely collection

NSO - Howabout 3mil + we help you find new trades/give you a temp trade so they don't get screwed.

Pip - Sounds great.

/end of discussion. [/quote]

Thats not hwo this was handled. It was instead handled in the typical NSO fashion of flashing lights and posturing.

[Manis B]

being minister of finance for GATO and running tech programs for god knows how many years, i can say this is a little steep.

If I ever had a problem with a tech deal, interalliance or no, I asked that

A: the deal be completed, sometimes nations need reminders.
B: the alliance take responsibility.

In dealing with mass tech trade with NSO, we had several fail for various reasons, but after asking nicely, NSO was quick to fix the situation, within the week if I recall.

As RV said, be a gentleman above all else. And dont take advantage of a situation. Just because you can kick a kitten, doesnt mean its the right thing to do.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1289233751' post='2506143']
Indeed, I thought for sure they would have learned that after the war with ROK but that would eliminate this jewel of entertainment. A touch high on the reps IMHO but hey you got em, enjoy being on top of the mountain as long as you can.
[/quote]

I believe MK received a swift answer once they got a hold of established government. Unfortunately, it was not the answer they wished for. I was quite clear with Yevgeni my lack of authority or information and pointed him directly to those he should contact.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Wad of Lint

[Cager]

I could have sworn the standard procedure for things like this was BACKROOM channels. Or my memory's a bit fuzzy and the Planet Bob community didn't repeatedly deal with publicity threads like this by stating you should go through private channels. My my the times have changed.

So for future reference folks, keep in mind if you discuss something with RV in backroom channels, there's a big chance it'll end up plastered here if he doesn't like what you have to say.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289233837' post='2506146']
Yes, this is exactly what happened.

You have it here first, folks! The NSO is so obsessed with MK et al that they monitor every potential trade in the hopes of finding someone with links to MK so that they can take money from them and then not follow through.

Brilliant.
[/quote]
Not so far fetched, I imagine if the member mentioned it offhand in NSO's private IRC channel, he could have been instructed what to do by NSO gov or other NSO members when they found out about it after the deal was complete. I can't really think of any other likely scenario, unless he really is stupid enough to throw away his nation, and all his trades for that matter, for 3m.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1289234164' post='2506154']
I could have sworn the standard procedure for things like this was BACKROOM channels. Or my memory's a bit fuzzy and the Planet Bob community didn't repeatedly deal with publicity threads like this by stating you should go through private channels. My my the times have changed.

So for future reference folks, keep in mind if you discuss something with RV in backroom channels, there's a big chance it'll end up plastered here if he doesn't like what you have to say.
[/quote]
Once upon a time those backroom channels included conducting affairs with honor and integrity as well.

So yes, times do change.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289233670' post='2506141']
Why should we even believe an alliance with such a long history of being duplicitous? It wouldn't surprise me if he was ordered to break the trades after NSO gov found out he was trading with MK.
[/quote]

Sardonic that's a stretch even for you.


[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233890' post='2506147']
had to fix some errors in your propaganda...


Also, I just said that if NSO feels they have been singled out over this they are welcome to get one of their little backroom chat buddies that they have been plotting GOONS' demise with to come and try this with a far better situated alliance and see if we don't react the same way. All we are asking is that you deal with us straight from the very beginning. That is not a tall order and its not our fault for someone giving us the run around.

Let me show you how this should have been handled.


Thats not hwo this was handled. It was instead handled in the typical NSO fashion of flashing lights and posturing.
[/quote]

Oh wow 3mill was never offered to us. I offered that we could hit the guy for you or you could hit him yourself. So now we have to read your minds? Please...

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1289233920' post='2506149']
I believe MK received a swift answer once they got a hold of real government. Unfortunately, it was not the answer they wished for. I was quite clear with Yevgeni my lack of authority or information and pointed him directly to those he should contact.
[/quote]

Given what I was privvy too via logs while I was in ROK and given what I was told when I was in ROK by senior gov and didnt see, and given what I was witness to in IRC channels. I am vastly more inclined to believe Tamerlane's version of the the discussion. While I have no anamosity for the Sith, its highly likely his frustration is indeed derived from the ridiculous nonsense your lords engage in, in a diplomatic setting.

Edit: good luck with it though, Im off to the otherworld for a bit.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Thorgrum

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233890' post='2506147']
Thats not hwo this was handled. It was instead handled in the typical NSO fashion of flashing lights and posturing.
[/quote]

You are absolutely right. MK sauntered in with steep demands and an unwillingness to compromise. It's hard to conduct diplomacy with a brick wall.

[abdur]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289233533' post='2506136']
There is no guarantee of that and this is not the case of whether it was sponsored, its a case of how it was handled.
[/quote]
NSO said that they were not protecting him, and that he was a ghost from that point on. You could have easily attacked him and taken the money from him by force.

[Cager]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1289234229' post='2506157']
Once upon a time those backroom channels included conducting affairs with [u][b]honor[/b][/u] and [u][b]integrity[/b][/u] as well.

So yes, times do change.
[/quote]

I look at that sentence and the bold words and then I look at your alliance affiliation. The moral high ground and the NSO don't belong together.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289234174' post='2506155']
Not so far fetched, I imagine if the member mentioned it offhand in NSO's private IRC channel, he could have been instructed what to do by NSO gov or other NSO members when they found out about it after the deal was complete. I can't really think of any other likely scenario, unless he really is stupid enough to throw away his nation, and all his trades for that matter, for 3m.
[/quote]
Right. So instead of it being just some random player that is like the vast majority of players that checks in periodically and has no real clue about the ins and outs of the minority politics here on the forum it must be that some new member of NSO was posting in the private channel that he was getting into a trade circle with MK people and the NSO government went out of their way to instruct him on how to swindle them out of $3mil.

Yes, you are again exactly right. That makes perfect sense.