Backroom Extortion is Back

[Michael von Prussia]

Oh my! Extortion and dirty tricks at the hands of MK? Who could have ever guessed?

No, this isn't surprising and it isn't big news, but I agree, bringing it to light is good. Gotta love how MK acts... pretty much exactly as NPO did back in the day, except perhaps with less class.

Edit: no, [i]definitely[/i] with less class.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Michael von Prussia

[D34th]

Doing tech deals all the times with outside sellers I know that is pretty much a common practice the alliance pay the remaining tech when the seller is a scammer, but pay reparations because some member decided to not honor his particular deal is pretty much excessive, MK should have asked only for the 3m back.

Edited November 8, 2010 by D34th

[Mayzie]

Whether or not he was a member when he stole the aid is irrelevent. You said that he isn't anymore and he wont be protected if MK wishes to go try and get their 3m back by force. Isn't removing the person from the alliance normally enough?

I don't see where this 15m & 250 tech comes from or why NSO members should be paying it. It's not like NSO gov. told this guy to take the money from MK, wait until some members of the circle were 20 days inactive, then cancel. Although, it would be hilarious if they had.

Trade circles go wrong all the time, what's next? Start charging alliances because you paid one of their members for a harbor and 25 days later that nation no longer exists?

[Karolina]

Well, I think the moral of this story is pretty clear. Don't join trade circles with other MK members.

[Cobalt]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289215657' post='2505983']
Just because something is technically true does not make it true.
[/quote]

[quote] For example, murderers in my country get off all the time due to technicalities, but that doesn't make them innocent does it? Technically innocent, but not innocent. [/quote]

I see what you're gunning for, but that's a terrible example... I'm not about to launch into a diatribe about legal systems and court processes... PM me if you want to go into that. I'll throw you a bone here and [i]give you a better example:[/i]

[color="#006400"]Team Cinderella Story comes out of nowhere and wins the big tiddly winks tournament despite losing their #1 player to a near-fatal car accident right before the championship game against the Big Mean People Who Usually Win team. However, they are disqualified right after the match because Cute Younger Sibling of #1 Player (who is only on the team due to the blood connection with #1 player) handed in the registration fee an hour late.[/color]

Bam. That has everything you could want. Underdog story (don't even try to lie... it must be your favorite or else you wouldn't allways be Fighting The Power™), cute kids, tragic accidents, amd a forced good-vs-evil plot line (is Big Mean People Who Usually Win team really evil? Or are they just a victim of the narrative's frame? tune in tomorrow to find out!)

Also, it sounds like the fair nation of Rebel Virginia needs to take a good look at its legal system.


[quote]It's the same deal here. If you're relying on minor details and technicalities to get what you want, you probably ain't got such great ground to stand on.[/quote]

I'm not getting anything, all I'm doing is pointing out when you agree that white is in fact white, then turn around and start talking about how its actually black, or purple, or red.

I know its hard for you to see past my AA, but do try. I agree with you that the whole situation is on the absurd side, and it seems that some missteps were taken on both sides of the field. However, if its truth we're after... how about we go through the sequence of events and see where the errors occurred:

Sequence as I gather from this thread:
-MK person goes looking to complete a TC for an MK member, finds a Guy
-MK gives Guy 3m for the necessary improvements
-Guy joins TC
-Guy then leaves TC
-MK investigates, sees that everything they can find points to Guy being under NSO's protection
-NSO thought they were rid of Guy beforehand, but it seems they forgot to do the things that would signal to the outside that they were in fact rid of him
-MK doesn't buy NSO's story of "he's really not ours, promise" and want compensation (a little more than I would've asked for in the same situation... but understandable given the back collects)
-RV sees Great Injustice™ and makes this thread.

Feel free to correct the above, I'm not claiming its 100% accurate, but in fact hoping you can point out the places where the information presented has lead me astray.

- - -

As for your quest to be the harbinger of truth, I'll leave you with one of my favorite passages on the subject:

"In reality, Jarre was afraid. She had, it seemed, peeked through a crack and caught a glimpse of Truth down there in the tunnels with Alfred. Truth wasn't something you went out and found. It was wide and vast and deep and unending, and all you could hope to see was a tiny part of it. And to see that part and to mistake it for the whole was to make of Truth a lie"

Take it as you will.

[xoindotnler]

So who is writing the DoW?

[Scorbolt]

[quote name='xoindotnler' timestamp='1289217985' post='2505993']
So who is writing the DoW?
[/quote]

I am.

[The MVP]

[quote name='Scorbolt' timestamp='1289218539' post='2505994']
I am.
[/quote]

So how much tech will you extort after your imminent victory?

[Lord Caspian]

If your alliance is too incompetent to unmask ghosts from your forums, why are you so surprised to get stung for it? You would giggle if Legion did it, but you cry when it happens to you.

[kerschbs]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1289216551' post='2505990']
Whether or not he was a member when he stole the aid is irrelevent. You said that he isn't anymore and he wont be protected if MK wishes to go try and get their 3m back by force. Isn't removing the person from the alliance normally enough?

I don't see where this 15m & 250 tech comes from or why NSO members should be paying it. It's not like NSO gov. told this guy to take the money from MK, wait until some members of the circle were 20 days inactive, then cancel. Although, it would be hilarious if they had.

Trade circles go wrong all the time, what's next? Start charging alliances because you paid one of their members for a harbor and 25 days later that nation no longer exists?
[/quote]

I agree with this statement. Asking for the 3m or to recover the money from the nation by force, fine. Asking for 15m-250t? Since when did we start paying losses on canceled trade deals?

[abdur]

[quote name='kerschbs' timestamp='1289219953' post='2505999']
I agree with this statement. Asking for the 3m or to recover the money from the nation by force, fine. Asking for 15m-250t? Since when did we start paying losses on canceled trade deals?
[/quote]
Usually, when you lose a trade, you suck it up and search for someone else. In this case, unless it were to be sponsored by NSO govt, I dont see why THEY had to pay the compensation for the 3 mil. Especially when they said that the person was a ghost, and MK could have taken the money from him by force(if they really wanted the money).

Oh well, to each his own I guess.

[Merrie Melodies]

Even back in the day of the Heg didn't it go something like this "He this guy flying your AA scammed us, whats the deal?" Answer, "he is a ghost and ain't been unmasked yet, have fun taking it out of his hide, btw the way, here is the 3 million he stole, sorry"

Edited November 8, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1289220425' post='2506006']
Even back in the day of the Heg didn't it go something like this "He this guy flying your AA scammed us, whats the deal?" Answer, "he is a ghost and ain't been unmasked yet, have fun taking it out of his hide, btw the way, here is the 3 million he stole, sorry"
[/quote]

So MK is officially worse than NPO?

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=89459&st=140&p=2384904&#entry2384904"]I thought that was our trademark?[/url]

Edited November 8, 2010 by LegendoftheSkies

[lebubu]

Thanks for the publicity.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289214376' post='2505974']
[color="#0000FF"]You know, I was saying that things like this would happen as early back as Karma. Guess I'm not so crazy after all, but I am right, once again.[/color]
[/quote]
Power has always been corrupting, back in the day when you were on top your side did the similar things, could be seen as worse things even.

People change, alliances change, and I for one find it incredibly ironic that folks who used to run the show now run around saying how bad it is now that they aren't running it.

That said, I don't agree with what MK did here, but MK is not \m/ and I have no say over what MK does. I do have say over what \m/ does. I can't change MK, nor do I want to. They do their thing.

I can see where you are coming from with some of what you're saying though. Being on the outside is a cold and lonely place, especially when you know your many enemies will hit you if you slip up.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='LegendoftheSkies' timestamp='1289221187' post='2506009']
So MK is officially worse than NPO?

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=89459&st=140&p=2384904&#entry2384904"]I thought that was our trademark?[/url]
[/quote]

You'll just have to try to out do them now to win the title back.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Karolina' timestamp='1289217783' post='2505991']
Well, I think the moral of this story is pretty clear. Don't join trade circles with other MK members.
[/quote]

yeah pretty much this. After this episode, i wonder what alliances are going to want their members trading with MK members except for MK allies.

as for the whole 15m/250t bit, that is just plain extortion. 3m was lost not 15m/250t. if MK does not know how to get a temp trade by now for a nation hitting 20 days BC, then they ain't doing something right.

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1289221462' post='2506011']
Power has always been corrupting, back in the day when you were on top your side did the similar things, could be seen as worse things even.

People change, alliances change, and I for one find it incredibly ironic that folks who used to run the show now run around saying how bad it is now that they aren't running it.
[/quote]

i have to agree with Merrie Melodies on this one. I don't think i ever saw NPO extort an alliance for 15m/250t for a lost trade. it seems when it comes to extortion, MK is trying to do it "better" than NPO. saw this coming honestly.

[Ardus]

I've never seen so many people simultaneously indignant and relieved, and I've seen some pretty big crowds.

An appropriate reparation is not measured by its equivalence to the damage caused. It is measured by its ability to deter the violation in the future. A proper reparation will include both compensatory damages and punitive damages, at least here on the small scale. The former of those two types becomes impossible on the large scale (global war reparations).

Here an individual, protected by NSO for all intents and purposes, deliberately gamed multiple nations to his own benefit. It is only appropriate that he pay something back to every individual wronged, and then some.

NPO imposes viceroys and wipes multiple alliances from this plane of existence. MK demands punitive damages. Therefore, MK equals NPO. That's some math there, boys.

[abdur]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289222391' post='2506017']
I've never seen so many people simultaneously indignant and relieved, and I've seen some pretty big crowds.

[b]An appropriate reparation is not measured by its equivalence to the damage caused. It is measured by its ability to deter the violation in the future.[/b] A proper reparation will include both compensatory damages and punitive damages, at least here on the small scale. The former of those two types becomes impossible on the large scale (global war reparations).

Here an individual, protected by NSO for all intents and purposes, deliberately gamed multiple nations to his own benefit. It is only appropriate that he pay something back to every individual wronged, and then some.

NPO imposes viceroys and wipes multiple alliances from this plane of existence. MK demands punitive damages. Therefore, MK equals NPO. That's some math there, boys.
[/quote]
Indeed, this will deter people from trading with MK or its allies in the future. As losing a trade can be caused by the said nation disappearing, or due to some other reason. The damages, if needed to be paid should have been 3 mil or an equivalent amount. (100 tech or something) But, even after NSO gave you the all clear that the person was a ghost, I would think that the best deterrent would be to take the 3 mil from him/her with force, losing trades is a very common occurrence, which is one of the reasons why #temptrade exists on IRC.
Also, the 'Not as bad as the NPO' argument is getting old, something new is in order now.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289222391' post='2506017']
I've never seen so many people simultaneously indignant and relieved, and I've seen some pretty big crowds.

An appropriate reparation is not measured by its equivalence to the damage caused. It is measured by its ability to deter the violation in the future. A proper reparation will include both compensatory damages and punitive damages, at least here on the small scale. The former of those two types becomes impossible on the large scale (global war reparations).

[b]Here an individual, protected by NSO for all intents and purposes,[/b] deliberately gamed multiple nations to his own benefit. It is only appropriate that he pay something back to every individual wronged, and then some.

NPO imposes viceroys and wipes multiple alliances from this plane of existence. MK demands punitive damages. Therefore, MK equals NPO. That's some math there, boys.
[/quote]
Really? Where was this?

I mean, is there logs floating around with someone with the authority to contradict the folks you spoke with saying we would protect him? Otherwise, I would have to you say you're quite full of it there.

The point is that he isn't protected by the NSO, never was being protected by the NSO, and we're paying up anyway, because of pretty blatant threats to face military action over a lost trade partner.

Speaking honestly? I expected better of you people. Especially bros. Im kind of disappointed that he was involved in this blatant lack of class.

[lebubu]

[quote name='abdur' timestamp='1289222807' post='2506021']
Also, the 'Not as bad as the NPO' argument is getting old, something new is in order now.
[/quote]

It's the 'Just as bad as the NPO' argument that got old, hope this helps.

[abdur]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289222945' post='2506023']
It's the 'Just as bad as the NPO' argument that got old, hope this helps.
[/quote]
Indeed, both have gotten stale, there needs to be a new dynamic, and no constant comparison to the previous 'hegemony' and the NPO.

[Topside the Hun]

This does pose some interesting questions. There is always a correct solution to every problem so lets look at a few alternate scenario's and determine if the best one was choosen here.

1) MK could have ignored the whole issue and told their members "meh!" dropped trades happen. MK members are then pissed off that their alliance leadership doesn't care or they search their member base and organize a temporary trade to replace the lost one.
2) MK could have gone to NSO and asked if they could attack the former member for his scam. NSO doesn't care so they are happy, MK is happy as they get a little revenge. Scammer gets a beatdown, Meh!
3) Demand a token payment for each trade member (I have to think a lost trade at 20 days of backlogging has got to be worth a lot more than $3mil and 50 Tech.) This annoys NSO and the negotiations strain relations between both alliances. Not really a win for either party.
4) If NSO refuses to pay. Then there two options on MK's part. Accept the refusal and tensions build in both alliances. If War erupts over it no one wins as the losses will be many, many times more than the lost trade revenue. Those not involved pass the popcorn and enjoy some drama.

I'm sure there could be variations on this, like if NSO and MK were tight NSO might be more than happy to compensate the MK members who were out some revenue.

Lastly MK has now issued their trade policy to the world. Trade with an MK member and your alliance will owe them $3mil/50 tech if you drop the trade. Well alliances can figure out how to deal with that one. I also would assume that if an MK member ever drops a trade with you then you can expect $3mil/50tech compensation.

Karma is a wonderful thing and what goes around eventually comes back. It continues to amaze me that with power comes corruption.

[D34th]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289222391' post='2506017']
I've never seen so many people simultaneously indignant and relieved, and I've seen some pretty big crowds.

An appropriate reparation is not measured by its equivalence to the damage caused. It is measured by its ability to deter the violation in the future. A proper reparation will include both compensatory damages and punitive damages, at least here on the small scale. The former of those two types becomes impossible on the large scale (global war reparations).

Here an individual, protected by NSO for all intents and purposes, deliberately gamed multiple nations to his own benefit. It is only appropriate that he pay something back to every individual wronged, and then some.

NPO imposes viceroys and wipes multiple alliances from this plane of existence. MK demands punitive damages. Therefore, MK equals NPO. That's some math there, boys.
[/quote]

Punitive damages? Are you punishing NSO because a stupid member did something that they can't control? This is the same of ask reparations when a nation goes rogue. Do you understand that what the ruler did was not sanctioned per NSO right? Also how asking more money than you deserve will stop other nations to drop trades? You logic is flawed since NSO nor any alliance can control that.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1289222065' post='2506015']
i have to agree with Merrie Melodies on this one. I don't think i ever saw NPO extort an alliance for 15m/250t for a lost trade. it seems when it comes to extortion, MK is trying to do it "better" than NPO. saw this coming honestly.
[/quote]
True, I do not recall a time where NPO demanded money for a lost trade.
I do remember times when they did arguably worse things, but of course all of NPO's sins are absolved as of Karma, so ...

I said I don't agree with MK asking for the reps here, they should've got their money back but reps for each person in a trade circle?
If I got reps every time someone cancelled on me in a trade circle I'd be a rich man.

However I do know that talking about how MK is "evil" or that MK is "worse than the NPO" is not really going to change anything. It takes actions, not words, to change things.