Backroom Extortion is Back

[Lennox]

I dont understand why so many people are acting surprised, MK has been acting like to "old NPO" for a while now.

[Biff Webster]

There isn't anyone else in the whole MK or even in your vast empire of political homies that had Coal/Gold to hook up a temp?

[Michael von Prussia]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289222391' post='2506017']
An appropriate reparation is not measured by its equivalence to the damage caused. It is measured by its ability to deter the violation in the future.
[/quote]
Although, for all intents and purposes, I disagree with this nonsense, let's address this incident as if it was, indeed, a good maxim: how is NSO, or indeed any alliance, supposed to prevent each and every one of its members from doing something stupid, especially with regard to something like trades, which are largely ruler-managed? There are no shortage of idiots in the Cyberverse; I'm sure NSO has its share of them. If another member of NSO did the exact same thing tomorrow, without having any clue any of this happened, how is NSO (any more than that one member) at fault?

As stated, trades are largely ruler-managed issues; to hold an alliance accountable for the economic actions of any of its members beyond the exact cost of damage done - in this case, the stolen trade incentive - is ridiculous. And when a member of any alliance does something stupid, and is expelled for their stupidity, continuing to hold that alliance responsible, even for the cost of the damage done, is equally ridiculous.

If losing three million dollars is that big of an issue for MK, then I'd advise them that ZI lists exist for a reason. To be honest, however, I'd say any alliance this upset about losing three million dollars has some severe fiscal mismanagement going on.

[Aurion]

[quote name='abdur' timestamp='1289223052' post='2506024']
Indeed, both have gotten stale, there needs to be a new dynamic, and no constant comparison to the previous 'hegemony' and the NPO.
[/quote]

Take it up with the people making the accusation at every point regardless of validity, not the ones who give the obvious response.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Aurion

[der_ko]

[quote name='Lennox' timestamp='1289223612' post='2506030']
I dont understand why so many people are acting surprised, MK has been acting like to "old NPO" for a while now.
[/quote]
Well, we do have a number of "old NPO" members.

[Ardus]

[quote name='abdur' timestamp='1289222807' post='2506021']
Indeed, this will deter people from trading with MK or its allies in the future. As losing a trade can be caused by the said nation disappearing, or due to some other reason. The damages, if needed to be paid should have been 3 mil or an equivalent amount. (100 tech or something) But, even after NSO gave you the all clear that the person was a ghost, I would think that the best deterrent would be to take the 3 mil from him/her with force, losing trades is a very common occurrence, which is one of the reasons why #temptrade exists on IRC.
Also, the 'Not as bad as the NPO' argument is getting old, something new is in order now.
[/quote]
Except we wouldn't go around knocking on doors for money if somebody deleted, or even if the nation in question withdrew, apologized, and offered to pay the money back. Those aren't the facts here. Here we had an individual deliberately and knowingly perform a wrongful act. He flew the NSO flag. He was masked on their forums. Any reasonable eye would draw the conclusion that he was a member, and thus he enjoyed their protection. If NSO doesn't want to be responsible for somebody they should take measures necessary to remove the illusion of protection. It isn't hard to do.

The people complaining about how they'll never trade with MK after this are the kinds of people who avoid trading with MK already.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289223907' post='2506037']
Except we wouldn't go around knocking on doors for money if somebody deleted, or even if the nation in question withdrew, apologized, and offered to pay the money back. Those aren't the facts here. Here we had an individual deliberately and knowingly perform a wrongful act. He flew the NSO flag. He was masked on their forums. Any reasonable eye would draw the conclusion that he was a member, and[b] thus he enjoyed their protection. [/b] If NSO doesn't want to be responsible for somebody they should take measures necessary to remove the illusion of protection. It isn't hard to do.

The people complaining about how they'll never trade with MK after this are the kinds of people who avoid trading with MK already.
[/quote]

Didn't the logs show NSO refused to protect or support said person?

[Ardus]

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1289223780' post='2506033']
Although, for all intents and purposes, I disagree with this nonsense, let's address this incident as if it was, indeed, a good maxim: how is NSO, or indeed any alliance, supposed to prevent each and every one of its members from doing something stupid, especially with regard to something like trades, which are largely ruler-managed? There are no shortage of idiots in the Cyberverse; I'm sure NSO has its share of them. If another member of NSO did the exact same thing tomorrow, without having any clue any of this happened, how is NSO (any more than that one member) at fault?

As stated, trades are largely ruler-managed issues; to hold an alliance accountable for the economic actions of any of its members beyond the exact cost of damage done - in this case, the stolen trade incentive - is ridiculous. And when a member of any alliance does something stupid, and is expelled for their stupidity, continuing to hold that alliance responsible, even for the cost of the damage done, is equally ridiculous.

If losing three million dollars is that big of an issue for MK, then I'd advise them that ZI lists exist for a reason. To be honest, however, I'd say any alliance this upset about losing three million dollars has some severe fiscal mismanagement going on.
[/quote]
I'd argue that demanding financial compensation from an alliance is a more fair-handed approach to punishment than is blasting individuals into annihilation, especially in this era of declining world population. We don't want the wrongdoer to cease existence--we just don't want him deliberately gaming people again.

[Ardus]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289223441' post='2506028']
Punitive damages? Are you punishing NSO because a stupid member did something that they can't control? This is the same of ask reparations when a nation goes rogue. Do you understand that what the ruler did was not sanctioned per NSO right? Also how asking more money than you deserve will stop other nations to drop trades? You logic is flawed since NSO nor any alliance can control that.
[/quote]
Alliances always have been, and always will be, responsible for the actions of their members. Any argument to the contrary is blatantly ignoring history.

[Darrenb209]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289223907' post='2506037']
Except we wouldn't go around knocking on doors for money if somebody deleted, or even if the nation in question withdrew, apologized, and offered to pay the money back. Those aren't the facts here. Here we had an individual deliberately and knowingly perform a wrongful act. He flew the NSO flag. He was masked on their forums. Any reasonable eye would draw the conclusion that he was a member, and thus he enjoyed their protection. If NSO doesn't want to be responsible for somebody they should take measures necessary to remove the illusion of protection. It isn't hard to do.

The people complaining about how they'll never trade with MK after this are the kinds of people who avoid trading with MK already.
[/quote]

And any reasonable reader, who does not only want to hear one thing would notice

<Rebel_Virginia> Not sure what he was thinking, but we won't be protecting him. He's on his own.

so, the guy was not under NSO's protection.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Lennox' timestamp='1289223612' post='2506030']
I dont understand why so many people are acting surprised, MK has been acting like to "old NPO" for a while now.
[/quote]

It really is sad that people actually believe this these days, because of loud mouthed scum bags like yourself.

[Kryievla]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1289216551' post='2505990']
Whether or not he was a member when he stole the aid is irrelevent. You said that he isn't anymore and he wont be protected if MK wishes to go try and get their 3m back by force. Isn't removing the person from the alliance normally enough?

I don't see where this 15m & 250 tech comes from or why NSO members should be paying it. It's not like NSO gov. told this guy to take the money from MK, wait until some members of the circle were 20 days inactive, then cancel. Although, it would be hilarious if they had.

Trade circles go wrong all the time, what's next? Start charging alliances because you paid one of their members for a harbor and 25 days later that nation no longer exists?
[/quote]

I agree with this.

Also, pardon, I read through those logs, must have missed where war was threatened if you didn't pay. Is there any such statement?

[Caliph]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289224148' post='2506041']
Alliances always have been, and always will be, responsible for the actions of their members. Any argument to the contrary is blatantly ignoring history.
[/quote]
This is very true. Wrongs will either be corrected diplomatically or there will be consequences.
This time diplomacy worked out. There will be times when diplomacy will not work.

Thats when the fun starts

[D34th]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289224148' post='2506041']
Alliances always have been, and always will be, responsible for the actions of their members. Any argument to the contrary is blatantly ignoring history.
[/quote]

Not when said actions weren't sanctioned by alliances. Should we expect MK to pay punitive reparations when a nation of yours goes rogue?

Also the excuse that you are asking for punitive reparations just to not punish the nation who committed the wrong is laughable and even more laughable when you say that you are doing this because the decline in world population.

[Kryievla]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289222391' post='2506017']
I've never seen so many people simultaneously indignant and relieved, and I've seen some pretty big crowds.

An appropriate reparation is not measured by its equivalence to the damage caused. [b]It is measured by its ability to deter the violation in the future. [/b]A proper reparation will include both compensatory damages and punitive damages, at least here on the small scale. The former of those two types becomes impossible on the large scale (global war reparations).

Here an individual, protected by NSO for all intents and purposes, deliberately gamed multiple nations to his own benefit. It is only appropriate that he pay something back to every individual wronged, and then some.

NPO imposes viceroys and wipes multiple alliances from this plane of existence. MK demands punitive damages. Therefore, MK equals NPO. That's some math there, boys.
[/quote]

Ardus,

How in the hell is any alliance supposed to prevent this in the future? Unless they make a blanket order not to trade with MK members, there is no way to prevent it, and no amount of punitive reps is going to change that fact. Unless this is what you are suggesting alliances do, forbid their members from trading with your alliance. I can't imagine you all doing something that stupid, so your point about them being punitive to prevent it from happening again doesn't make much sense...

unless you are assuming that NSO sought out these trades on purpose, then set you all up & forced you to backcollect, then dropped trades maliciously at the last minute.

[jer]

MK are setting a ridiculous precedent here. What if a nation hostile to MK in the 50k NS range joins their ranks, achieves a member mask, and then goes rogue on three nations of other alliances? Are MK going to pay the millions of dongs in damages for that? Remember, it wouldn't matter whether they kick him out, he was a member at the time of going rogue.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Ziperia]

Weird that MK didn't demand anything from Ninjas when I cancelled a MK member without a notice. I guess they don't like when there is a chance people will kick back.

[moniker]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289224064' post='2506040']
I'd argue that demanding financial compensation from an alliance is a more fair-handed approach to punishment than is blasting individuals into annihilation, especially in this era of declining world population. We don't want the wrongdoer to cease existence--we just don't want him deliberately gaming people again.
[/quote]

So how is extracting your pound of flesh from NSO (and specifically NOT from the 'wrongdoer') going to accomplish that?

I feel like I'm missing something here

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289222391' post='2506017']
I've never seen so many people simultaneously indignant and relieved, and I've seen some pretty big crowds.

An appropriate reparation is not measured by its equivalence to the damage caused. [b]It is measured by its ability to deter the violation in the future. A proper reparation will include both compensatory damages and punitive damages, at least here on the small scale.[/b] The former of those two types becomes impossible on the large scale (global war reparations).

Here an individual, protected by NSO for all intents and purposes, deliberately gamed multiple nations to his own benefit. It is only appropriate that he pay something back to every individual wronged, and then some.

NPO imposes viceroys and wipes multiple alliances from this plane of existence. MK demands punitive damages. Therefore, MK equals NPO. That's some math there, boys.
[/quote]
Ok now im officially ROFLMAO

This should be treated as a rogue issue not an AA issue. Meh same ol !@#$ different day nothing has changed but the faces behind the masks. I wonder if this precedent will allow me to go after a trade partners AA who deleted and left me high and dry hmmm.

[abdur]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289223907' post='2506037']
Except we wouldn't go around knocking on doors for money if somebody deleted, or even if the nation in question withdrew, apologized, and offered to pay the money back. Those aren't the facts here. Here we had an individual deliberately and knowingly perform a wrongful act. He flew the NSO flag. He was masked on their forums. Any reasonable eye would draw the conclusion that he was a member, and thus he enjoyed their protection. If NSO doesn't want to be responsible for somebody they should take measures necessary to remove the illusion of protection. It isn't hard to do.

The people complaining about how they'll never trade with MK after this are the kinds of people who avoid trading with MK already.
[/quote]
When NSO stated that the member was not under their protection, the 'illusion of protection' was lifted, and you were free to do what you wanted with the said nation. So instead of taking the money from NSO, you could have taken it from the culprit.(By persuasion or force) Especially when NSO said that it was not sanctioned by them.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1289224272' post='2506044']
It really is sad that people actually believe this these days, because of loud mouthed scum bags like yourself.
[/quote]
What's really funny is how for all your talk of "not being as bad as them", you intentionally dont do anything to disprove that impression.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Ziperia' timestamp='1289225091' post='2506053']
Weird that MK didn't demand anything from Ninjas when I cancelled a MK member without a notice. I guess they don't like when there is a chance people will kick back.
[/quote]
Agreed.

The amount asked is nonsense. 3m should be the price, and if I were NSO, I wouldn't pay anymore, because in the end, coming here is pointless if you already agreed. I would have told them to go elsewhere. NoWedge comes into mind in this situation. How ironic this situation is.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289223907' post='2506037']
Except we wouldn't go around knocking on doors for money if somebody deleted, or even if the nation in question withdrew, apologized, and offered to pay the money back. Those aren't the facts here. Here we had an individual deliberately and knowingly perform a wrongful act. He flew the NSO flag. He was masked on their forums. Any reasonable eye would draw the conclusion that he was a member, and thus he enjoyed their protection. [b]If NSO doesn't want to be responsible for somebody they should take measures necessary to remove the illusion of protection. It isn't hard to do.[/b]

The people complaining about how they'll never trade with MK after this are the kinds of people who avoid trading with MK already.
[/quote]
...And yet we did.

And your response was to threaten us with war when we did do so. So...Yeah. I mean, you can try to spin it, but literally no one buys it. The ones whod be convinced are laughing at the stunt you pulled, regardless of how stupid your argument is, and the rest are openly facepalming at the fact you're getting away with making such an absurd justification.

Honestly. Hegemony is no excuse for degradation of quality.

[mythicknight]

This pepsi sure tastes familiar.

[Karolina]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289223907' post='2506037']
Except we wouldn't go around knocking on doors for money if somebody deleted, or even if the nation in question withdrew, apologized, and offered to pay the money back. Those aren't the facts here. Here we had an individual deliberately and knowingly perform a wrongful act. He flew the NSO flag. He was masked on their forums. Any reasonable eye would draw the conclusion that he was a member, and thus he enjoyed their protection. If NSO doesn't want to be responsible for somebody they should take measures necessary to remove the illusion of protection. It isn't hard to do.

The people complaining about how they'll never trade with MK after this are the kinds of people who avoid trading with MK already.
[/quote]
I don't think anyone will dispute the fact that stealing the money was wrong, unless they're a scammer themselves. Rebel Virginia clearly stated that it was crappy thing to do in his conversation. The point is, that, when Mr Virginia stated that the nation in question was no longer a member of NSO and that MK were, in all intents and purposes, free to do what they wanted to the nation, that should have erased NSO from the equation. Even 3 million would of been a courtesy on NSO's part after the nation was kicked out, but 15m/250t? Come on, that's ridiculous.

Everyone's had a back-collection messed up before. Get over it and move on.