Backroom Extortion is Back

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1289246205' post='2506429']
I would have thought you of all people would appreciate conspiracy theories.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I, for one, am grounded in reality. Also, all my theories are true. Yours is just completely off the wall.[/color]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289246211' post='2506430']
You know as well as I do that the logic does not impute there (at least I hope so).

Anyway, as for my thoughts on this, those who scam aid are universally subject to punishment, and this situation is no different in that regard. Perhaps a bit harsh? Maybe, but that facet of the situation is subjective and does not speak to the validity of the action as a whole. As for the actions of the nation being projected onto NSO, it entirely depends if the nation is going to be treated as a member and granted the privileges and immunities provided to such a classification (which includes the alliance paying for the mistakes of the member when he is unable to do so), and there undeniably is a great deal of confusion in those logs about whether or not that is the case. Assuming the worst is always prudent when presented with such confusion, and that is all that happened. No great evil was committed here in my opinion, despite the fact that I personally may have handled it differently.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Confusion? Well, golly jeeze and boggle me silly, but I don't see one bit of confusion in those logs. I said at the start that he wasn't going to be treated as a member, and I prompted unmasked him as soon as I found out he still had one. That should have been the end of that, but MK didn't think we ought to be able to drop a member. That's where the confusion sets in. Had they'd just let us drop the member, as is normal procedure for most alliances, then all of this could have been avoid.[/color]

Edited November 8, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Ashok]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289246211' post='2506430']
You know as well as I do that the logic does not impute there (at least I hope so).

Anyway, as for my thoughts on this, those who scam aid are universally subject to punishment, and this situation is no different in that regard. Perhaps a bit harsh? Maybe, but that facet of the situation is subjective and does not speak to the validity of the action as a whole. As for the actions of the nation being projected onto NSO, it entirely depends if the nation is going to be treated as a member and granted the privileges and immunities provided to such a classification (which includes the alliance paying for the mistakes of the member when he is unable to do so), and there undeniably is a great deal of confusion in those logs about whether or not that is the case. Assuming the worst is always prudent when presented with such confusion, and that is all that happened. No great evil was committed here in my opinion, despite the fact that I personally may have handled it differently.
[/quote]

Except the scammer gets off scott free even tho we told MK he was not a member and that we just failed to demask him. There was no negotiating with MK about it they wanted 15mil and 250tech or as the vieled threats went a war. So we were stuck between a rock and a hard place. The "evil" that was committed was MK not willing to negotiate at all. They set demands and would not listen to reason and used their power to achieve their ends. The fact that you say no great evil was committed "in your opinion" shows that the general members who posted do represent the thoughts of VE since you are agreeing with them. Your position here is just like that of all the others who came to MK's defense: "Its okay cuz its MK and its NSO that it is happening too." Which just shows blind you really are.

[Petrovich4]

Hmm, I can see both sides of the issue here. Both are correct from their respective perspectives.

However, NSO in general, and RV in particular, killed MK in the propaganda arena in this instance. Well done, RV for taking the initiative. It isn't the logs that make NSO come out on top, MK actually does in my opinion. It's the following responses by various members that wins it for NSO.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Ashok' timestamp='1289246546' post='2506434']
Which just shows blind you really are.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]No, he's not blind. None of these fellows are. At least not the higher ups anyway. Not sure I can credit the same vote of confidence to the grunts though. But he knows perfectly well what's going on. Impero is a smart man after all. No, the word you're looking for Ashok is indifferent. He don't care, and others feel the same way. It has been for a long time not been about what you do but rather who you are. And that's why it doesn't matter. The normal MK cheerleaders will always applaud them no matter what they do.[/color]

Edited November 8, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[D34th]

It's funny to see that the excuse for this extortion already changed, now it's because MK received "[i]3 different, conflicting answers making our job that much harder![/i]" it's even more funny that some members already stopped to try explain and are now in the mode: "[i]Do something about it![/i]"

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289246267' post='2506432']
[color="#0000FF"]I, for one, am grounded in reality. Also, all my theories are true. Yours is just completely off the wall.[/color]


[color="#0000FF"]Confusion? Well, golly jeeze and boggle me silly, but I don't see one bit of confusion in those logs. I said at the start that he wasn't going to be treated as a member, and I prompted unmasked him as soon as I found out he still had one. That should have been the end of that, but MK didn't think we ought to be able to drop a member. That's where the confusion sets in. Had they'd just let us drop the member, as is normal procedure for most alliances, then all of this could have been avoid.[/color]
[/quote]

I can see where you would think there was no confusion on your end, but try to view it from the perspective of the people you were speaking with. These statements were basically the points you let it rest on: <Rebel_Virginia> Like I said, this is more or less a [i]masked ghost[/i]...<Rebel_Virginia> He was a member, but a !@#$%* one. Such a status classification leads to many questions as its obviously out of the norm, and many of those ambiguities have a direct bearing on how the situation should rightfully be handled. Now, instead of elaborating more and negotiating for a different resolution based upon a more thorough explanation of the circumstance, you went directly into the "this is extortion!" (which is very severe and alarmist by the way) line of rhetoric, providing only a scintilla of further information which actually does more to foster confusion then it does to solve it. If you were more clear on that crucial element of the situation, perhaps a different result would have been reached. Don't get me wrong, I'm not faulting you for your lack of clarity as I severely doubt it was intentional, I'm just saying its not rational to fault MK for acting on the facts as they knew them without any other information.

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289247057' post='2506441']
It's funny to see that the excuse for this extortion already changed, now it's because MK received "[i]3 different, conflicting answers making our job that much harder![/i]" it's even more funny that some members already stopped to try explain and are now in the mode: "[i]Do something about it![/i]"
[/quote]
Just wait till someone does something about it. "They did something about it baaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww *calls friends*"

Edited November 8, 2010 by xoindotnler

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289247253' post='2506444']
I can see where you would think there was no confusion on your end, but try to view it from the perspective of the people you were speaking with. These statements were basically the points you let it rest on: <Rebel_Virginia> Like I said, this is more or less a [i]masked ghost[/i]...<Rebel_Virginia> He was a member, but a !@#$%* one. Such a status classification leads to many questions as its obviously out of the norm, and many of those ambiguities have a direct bearing on how the situation should rightfully be handled. Now, instead of elaborating more and negotiating for a different resolution based upon a more thorough explanation of the circumstance, you went directly into the "this is extortion!" (which is very severe and alarmist by the way) line of rhetoric, providing only a scintilla of further information which actually does more to foster confusion then it does to solve it. If you were more clear on that crucial element of the situation, perhaps a different result would have been reached. Don't get me wrong, I'm not faulting you for your lack of clarity as I severely doubt it was intentional, I'm just saying its not rational to fault MK for acting on the facts as they knew them without any other information.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I said that after MK said dropping the member was not good enough for them. I explained the circumstances well enough, and they weren't interested. If you think they were interested in talking down the price then you're mistaken. They wanted cash and they knew they could shake it out of us. There is no way for anyone in our position to reason with MK when it doesn't want to be reasoned with. I'm sure that even you can understand that.[/color]

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289247057' post='2506441']
It's funny to see that the excuse for this extortion already changed, now it's because MK received "[i]3 different, conflicting answers making our job that much harder![/i]" it's even more funny that some members already stopped to try explain and are now in the mode: "[i]Do something about it![/i]"
[/quote]

Funny to see their tough-guy image juxtaposed with an over-sensitivity to perceived insults. It's straight from the bully playbook.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Sal Paradise

[Ashok]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289246784' post='2506437']
[color="#0000FF"]No, he's not blind. None of these fellows are. At least not the higher ups anyway. Not sure I can credit the same vote of confidence to the grunts though. But he knows perfectly well what's going on. Impero is a smart man after all. No, the word you're looking for Ashok is indifferent. He don't care, and others feel the same way. It has been for a long time not been about what you do but rather who you are. And that's why it doesn't matter. The normal MK cheerleaders will always applaud them no matter what they do.[/color]
[/quote]

Indeed.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1289247057' post='2506441']
It's funny to see that the excuse for this extortion already changed, now it's because MK received "[i]3 different, conflicting answers making our job that much harder![/i]" it's even more funny that some members already stopped to try explain and are now in the mode: "[i]Do something about it![/i]"
[/quote]

Well when you have those MK reps who say things like "We don't care what your policies on membership are!" It tends to make any arguments they make null. But yes it is indeed funny when 1 of those answers was not from a government member and the other 2 are in complete agreement. Very funny how that works out.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289247253' post='2506444']
I can see where you would think there was no confusion on your end, but try to view it from the perspective of the people you were speaking with. These statements were basically the points you let it rest on: <Rebel_Virginia> Like I said, this is more or less a [i]masked ghost[/i]...<Rebel_Virginia> He was a member, but a !@#$%* one. Such a status classification leads to many questions as its obviously out of the norm, and many of those ambiguities have a direct bearing on how the situation should rightfully be handled. [b]Now, instead of elaborating more and negotiating for a different resolution based upon a more thorough explanation of the circumstance[/b], you went directly into the "this is extortion!" (which is very severe and alarmist by the way) line of rhetoric, providing only a scintilla of further information which actually does more to foster confusion then it does to solve it. If you were more clear on that crucial element of the situation, perhaps a different result would have been reached. Don't get me wrong, I'm not faulting you for your lack of clarity as I severely doubt it was intentional, I'm just saying its not rational to fault MK for acting on the facts as they knew them without any other information.
[/quote]

Il Impero your mistake with the bolded is thinking they were not explored. They were I was a part of the earlier conversations which contains MK stating that they don't care what our policies on membership are and that we cannot drop this guy and that we have to pay reps. So Impero you can't continue arguing from that point because all of us from the NSO government are saying "He is not a member he was removed months ago but his mask was not sorry for you thinking he was." TO which they respond "You guys are liars and think we are idiots you best pay us our money and tech!" From where does the conversation go Impero?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289247412' post='2506448']
[color="#0000FF"]I said that after MK said dropping the member was not good enough for them. I explained the circumstances well enough, and they weren't interested. If you think they were interested in talking down the price then you're mistaken. They wanted cash and they knew they could shake it out of us. There is no way for anyone in our position to reason with MK when it doesn't want to be reasoned with. I'm sure that even you can understand that.[/color]
[/quote]

You cannot know that which you did not try to find out, same as they cannot act on information they were never given. They very will could have moved on the numbers in light of further information, but the fact of the matter is we will never know as that avenue was simply not attempted; you accepted their proposed resolution outright. I understand you think you explained the circumstances well enough, but for the reasons in my last post, I guess I just simply must disagree, and to me that is the linchpin of the situation.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1289244878' post='2506399']
Wouldn't know. Wasn't around for it
[/quote]
You didn't "come back for the big win"?

[Ashok]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289247791' post='2506452']
You cannot know that which you did not try to find out, same as they cannot act on information they were never given. They very will could have moved on the numbers in light of further information, but the fact of the matter is we will never know as that avenue was simply not attempted; you accepted their proposed resolution outright. I understand you think you explained the circumstances well enough, but for the reasons in my last post, I guess I just simply must disagree, and to me that is the linchpin of the situation.
[/quote]

The numbers where established from the beginning of these dealings. They were not willing to negotiate at all. You are operating under the impression that NSO failed to use all the known avenues to it when we did and it was MK who said "No you pay or else." Simple as that.

[Schad]

Anyone who has ever had a trade circle has had a new nation drop out at some point, generally for either no reason or an incredibly illogical reason. That's life, and while the alliance to which the nation belongs should be responsible for the $3m in aid, the ease with which temp trades can be found makes adding the cost of lost income idiotic...unless he canceled on the 20th day of the sled of each of those nations, an hour prior to update, there shouldn't be any losses beyond perhaps a +1 same-team trade, or a $3m gift (from the entirety of the circle) to the temping nation for their patience in swapping through five nations.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289247791' post='2506452']
You cannot know that which you did not try to find out, same as they cannot act on information they were never given. They very will could have moved on the numbers in light of further information, but the fact of the matter is we will never know as that avenue was simply not attempted; you accepted their proposed resolution outright. I understand you think you explained the circumstances well enough, but for the reasons in my last post, I guess I just simply must disagree, and to me that is the linchpin of the situation.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]That was not the first talk with MK that night. We tried explaining the situation, and that the nation should not have been a member and was being dropped. We tried explaining that the mask was there by mistake, an administrative oversight. MK was not interested in our explanations, and if they were not interested in our side of the story what makes you think they'd have been willing to talk down the price?[/color]

[Alterego]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1289247662' post='2506449']
Funny to see their tough-guy image juxtaposed with an over-sensitivity to perceived insults. It's straight from the bully playbook.
[/quote]
They went from no more excessive reps, to excessive reps for past crimes, to excessive reps for pre-emptively attacking during a war and are now at excessive reps for dropping trades. Imagine what they will try next.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Ashok' timestamp='1289247672' post='2506450']
Il Impero your mistake with the bolded is thinking they were not explored. They were I was a part of the earlier conversations which contains MK stating that they don't care what our policies on membership are and that we cannot drop this guy and that we have to pay reps. So Impero you can't continue arguing from that point because all of us from the NSO government are saying "He is not a member he was removed months ago but his mask was not sorry for you thinking he was." TO which they respond "You guys are liars and think we are idiots you best pay us our money and tech!" From where does the conversation go Impero?
[/quote]

It is very easy for someone to say they aren't interested in something that they don't know. It is much harder to say they are going to disregard something that they do know, no matter what initial statements were made. A prudent approach before crying foul would be to explore every end of the matter and bring all the relevant facts to light, then attempt a different resolution, something which did not happen here. In short, its called negotiating. Here, there was no negotiating. Initial stances and offers in negotiations are rarely fair, but the result at the end usually is. Why is this? Because things evolve in regards to information presented. Just because you took their initial offer, which I agree is somewhat unbalanced, does not make them uncompromising monsters when no attempt was made to compromise.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289248188' post='2506460']
[color="#0000FF"]That was not the first talk with MK that night. We tried explaining the situation, and that the nation should not have been a member and was being dropped. We tried explaining that the mask was there by mistake, an administrative oversight. MK was not interested in our explanations, and if they were not interested in our side of the story what makes you think they'd have been willing to talk down the price?[/color]
[/quote]

See the above mainly.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Rafael Nadal]

I'd say this worked brilliantly. Public support for all my gov't involved in this. Kudos.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1289248226' post='2506462']
See the above mainly.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]When three different people try talking to MK, for hours each, and talks go nowhere, I think it is safe to assume that negotiating isn't going to work.[/color]

[Buds The Man]

LOL well if nothing else RV brings entertainment. This has made my day.

GL MK this was not the best thought out plan.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1289244254' post='2506379']
You dont need to come up with the figure to know how it was [s]reached[/s] arrived at.
[/quote]


Of course, glad you have such valuable insight on my alliance's inner workings. DAMN YOU CNTEL!

[Ashok]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289248398' post='2506464']
[color="#0000FF"]When three different people try talking to MK, for hours each, and talks go nowhere, I think it is safe to assume that negotiating isn't going to work.[/color]
[/quote]

What he said.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289229677' post='2506090']
[color="#0000FF"]I'd rather pay the petty amount they're asking for now than "reparations" after a pummeling later. I'm not afraid, but I do understand our position and theirs. But I won't be forgetting this at all.[/color]
[/quote]
We wouldn't let you take another pummeling by yourself.

[hr]

As for what MK did, it is shameful. If I was on top of the world, and my worst enemy was in the position of NSO here, I might charge them $6 mil tops ($3 million returned plus a $3 million slot usage fee, that fee is still debatable), [i]or[/i] let them release the guy to face the consequences himself. Key word in that is [i]or[/i]. Anything in excess of the above is extortion.

This is a nobody member of NSO we are talking about here, who was expelled anyway for violating NSO policy, if he even was a member at the time, which is unclear to me. His actions were his own and NSO, nor any alliance, can possibly hope to safeguard against random members doing stuff in violation of their own internal policy. They are neither mind readers nor mind controllers.

This was, pure and simple, straight up extortion. I know that if NSO came to MK demanding the reverse, they would get laughed at. How MK pretends this is morally defensible, is beyond me.

We plunge ever deeper into the abyss, and the only question in relation to the ever popular "what NPO used to do," is merely "Are we there yet?"

[Kevanovia]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1289208102' post='2505945']
Or something you can use as propaganda to make people look bad~
[/quote]

Stop making the ODN haters look good.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289248398' post='2506464']
[color="#0000FF"]When three different people try talking to MK, for hours each, and talks go nowhere, I think it is safe to assume that negotiating isn't going to work.[/color]
[/quote]

Well, up until now we haven't been talking about 3 different people speaking about an issue for hours, have we? We have been talking about the logs of the singular conversation in the OP. The only references to prior talks in those logs were made in regards to them expressing confusion over the nations classification and the inconsistency of prior statements, a sentiment which you sympathized with but did not elaborate on. If anything, the references therein indicate they [i]did [/i]try to do some fact finding [i]before [/i]they made an offer prior to this, but they were to no avail (something conceited by you). Thus, bringing us full circle to my original point.

For reference:

[quote]<Rebel_Virginia> There was some [b]legitimate confusion[/b] as to the status of our member.
<Yevgeni> You're speaking of a masked ghost, your colleagues were speaking of two different people.
<Epiphanus> Your two boys flip flopped on whether the guy was a member so many times earlier I lost count
<Rebel_Virginia> A masked ghost is by no means a technical term.
<Yevgeni> And Lintwad actually told us the guy was a legitimate member.
<Rebel_Virginia> Just a description.
<Rebel_Virginia> He was a member, but a !@#$%* one.

<Rebel_Virginia> Epiphanus: [i]I don't focus on details[/i]. I could care less.
<Rebel_Virginia> You're the one bringing them up.

<Rebel_Virginia> [i]My colleagues were wrong[/i]. I'm sure you can forgive someone for being mistaken.[/quote]