In Response to Recent Drama

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281481404' post='2410329']
Yeah, perhaps you've missed the part where NSO asked their allies not to come in this war? Their allies aren't wimping out because they don't have an obligation because they too fall into the flawed logic that NSO is the aggressors in this war, they are simply adhering to NSO's request that they not come to NSO's [i]defense[/i].

Past that, I think there is a large difference between committing an act of war and committing an act worthy of war.
[/quote]

Back in Novision, the CSN asked its allies not to go to war. The CSN even canceled its treaty with GATO and still went to war to support GATO during the cancellation period.

The end result, USN, despite being asked not to involve itself, rolled into support the CSN. The USN took a fearsome beating and was let off with white peace. Yet they still rolled because the reason for war and the bond of brotherhood dictated that it was the right thing to do. My view on the allies of the NSO is that they don't particularly find the merits of the NSO's positions compelling enough to take the plunge desipte the NSO's exhortations to stay out.

[janax]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281486861' post='2410441']
We were as friendly as we had ever been.
[/quote]

Apparently not friendly enough to work past a delay in the arbitrary time limit set by some members of GATO government for when they should be notified of "potential threats".

It's a weak excuse/reason and you know it.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281486861' post='2410441']
Ask anyone in GATO if I am downplaying the situation Raga. Believe me I'm not at all happy how it went down. However, if people want to !@#$%* at GATO for this the only thing that they can really !@#$%* at is the timing. Cowardice had nothing to do with it as NSO wasn't asking for help anyway. So, I can't let people say that. The notion that GATO had been looking for a reason to cancel is asinine at best. We were working on a joint venture when this all broke out. We were as friendly as we had ever been. Complaining about the reason for cancelation is ridiculous because GATO gets to decide what is expected from a treaty not everyone else. How would you like it if we told you how to interpret your treaties? Exactly. Now if you want to be disgusted by the timing of the treaty? Fine. I won't argue. That was a mistake and we'll live with it.
[/quote]

Fair enough.

[magicninja]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1281487576' post='2410452']
Apparently not friendly enough to work past a delay in the arbitrary time limit set by some members of GATO government for when they should be notified of "potential threats".

It's a weak excuse/reason and you know it.
[/quote]

They weren't our most well liked treaty partner because of how they roll. I'd venture to say among the membership that they may be the least liked but at the top levels of gov I like to think we got along really well. Some more than others and maybe Omni doesn't have the connection that I or Laserwolf have with their leadership.

The reason may be weak depending on who you ask but it is still a reason. I wouldn't presume to tell you how and why you can cancel your treaties because well it's your choice. So don't be surprised when I think your indignation about our reasons mean little to nothing to me.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281478633' post='2410249']
Apparently the "you're all cowards" baiting failed so now it's time for the "if your allies don't jump in then that proves you're the aggressor, despite not actually being the aggressor" baiting.

Creative.
[/quote]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Guido]

Ah Gato...always classy...

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1281420040' post='2409242']
Where in gods name did you even get that from? Not a rhetorical question either, I actually want to know what prompted you to say that or do you just literally post anything mildly insulting that comes into your head when your making a response to someone.
[/quote]
Actually, it's a long story, and it doesn't really have anything to do with this thread. PM me or contact me on IRC.

[quote name='Mirreille' timestamp='1281466889' post='2409996']
....FAN? If you consider potential lost, their extended "vacation" in peace mode cost them a staggering amount of potential power.
[/quote]
Hmm, yes. I would agree with FAN, TPF as #2, and then either GATO or NPO as #3.

[quote name='Tulafaras' timestamp='1281486117' post='2410429']
Seriously do you even read what you write? Since when has aiding a nation at war been acceptable?
[/quote]
When the nation is being attacked for invalid reasons.

Or would you like to see some quotes from the thread we posted the last time we did it?

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1250833674' post='1790275']
Good luck Invicta, you're doing the right thing.
[/quote]
[quote name='Fort Pitt' timestamp='1250833758' post='1790288']
For once, I will support Invicta, lol
[/quote]
[quote name='Poobah' timestamp='1250833881' post='1790311']
You earned some of the respect back that I lost for you guys a few months ago. That takes a lot. I didn't think I'd be doing one of these ever again.

o/ Invicta
[/quote]
[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1250834193' post='1790352']
Thanks for finally doing something right Invicta.
[/quote]
[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1250900492' post='1792840']
To their credit Invicta is actually sending aid now, not after.
[/quote]
[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1250900807' post='1792850']
I still don't care much for Invicta but I like it when people stand up for the little guy. This is the kind of world that I like....when people speak up and take action when they see someone being wronged.
[/quote]

[magicninja]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281493192' post='2410555']
Hmm, yes. I would agree with FAN, TPF as #2, and then either GATO or NPO as #3.
[/quote]

Eh I would consider NPO and TPF one offs. FAN and GATO got taken to the woodshed on more than one occasion.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281493502' post='2410563']
Eh I would consider NPO and TPF one offs. FAN and GATO got taken to the woodshed on more than one occasion.
[/quote]
TPF has been at war rather a lot of the past year.

Also, NPO got stomped by the entirety of Planet Bob back in the dawn of time. Or so I keep on getting told.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281493192' post='2410555']
Or would you like to see some quotes from the thread we posted the last time we did it?
[/quote]

You are quoting out of context there. In fact that incident kind of underlines this one. Everyone involved in that acknowledged that sending aid was an act of war, and were doing it anyway, (or we waiting until after because of same concern.)

[Haflinger]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281497775' post='2410642']
You are quoting out of context there. In fact that incident kind of underlines this one. Everyone involved in that acknowledged that sending aid was an act of war, and were doing it anyway, (or we waiting until after because of same concern.)
[/quote]
Actually, just for clarity's sake, Invicta did it. Nobody else did.

And yet, there was no war. This is because Poison Clan used diplomacy.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but it appears that PC could give Hoo a few pointers.

[Roadie]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1281487537' post='2410451']
Back in Novision, the CSN asked its allies not to go to war. The CSN even canceled its treaty with GATO and still went to war to support GATO during the cancellation period.

The end result, USN, despite being asked not to involve itself, rolled into support the CSN. The USN took a fearsome beating and was let off with white peace. Yet they still rolled because the reason for war and the bond of brotherhood dictated that it was the right thing to do. My view on the allies of the NSO is that they don't particularly find the merits of the NSO's positions compelling enough to take the plunge desipte the NSO's exhortations to stay out.
[/quote]

Your presumption of the reason is false.

[Roadie]

Have we found out yet what the real reason for cancelling is yet?

I'm just going to go ahead and posit that GATO was afraid of having a viceroy installed again. It's just as plausible as the non-communication justification.

[Chris Kaos]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281496241' post='2410611']
TPF has been at war rather a lot of the past year.

Also, NPO got stomped by the entirety of Planet Bob back in the dawn of time. Or so I keep on getting told.
[/quote]
*puts on my old man hat*

I'll be straight up here. CoaLUEtion won, despite what my old foe Vladimir will say. If we kept going, we probably could have ZIed NPpO, but the cost would have been the near utter ruination of GATO, LUE, NAAC, GGA and CGS/CDS (ODN and Legion had dropped out already, meh). Probably. And that's if all those alliances stayed in.

What also could have happened is this: NAAC, whose membership was pretty heavily split on the war by the time peace came around, leaves the war. GGA, knowing they weren't going to get their ridiculous reps, leave to lick their wounds. CDS would have bailed at this point as well, knowing it's a lost cause. Depending on how long the fighting lasted before those three bailed out, it could have turned out any way.

Anyway. Wasn't a stomping like alliances get these days, is all I'm saying.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1281510705' post='2410951']
(ODN and Legion had dropped out already, meh)
[/quote]
Indeed ..Orrple should have stayed the course.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1281510705' post='2410951']
*puts on my old man hat*

I'll be straight up here. CoaLUEtion won, despite what my old foe Vladimir will say. If we kept going, we probably could have ZIed NPpO, but the cost would have been the near utter ruination of GATO, LUE, NAAC, GGA and CGS/CDS (ODN and Legion had dropped out already, meh). Probably. And that's if all those alliances stayed in.

What also could have happened is this: NAAC, whose membership was pretty heavily split on the war by the time peace came around, leaves the war. GGA, knowing they weren't going to get their ridiculous reps, leave to lick their wounds. CDS would have bailed at this point as well, knowing it's a lost cause. Depending on how long the fighting lasted before those three bailed out, it could have turned out any way.

Anyway. Wasn't a stomping like alliances get these days, is all I'm saying.
[/quote]

So basically you opted for at-least a paper victory before even that became uncertain.

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote]I'm just going to go ahead and posit that GATO was afraid of having a viceroy installed again. It's just as plausible as the non-communication justification. [/quote]
It's also plausible that we are all just plain mean, unkind people.

We're often referred to as a cat, for goodness sake. They're about as self-serving and conniving as animals get.

[quote]
So basically you opted for at-least a paper victory before even that became uncertain.
[/quote]
That's pretty much how it happened. Though I remember all kinds of $@!-whupping at the lower echelons.

Course, those were the days when NPO had all the really biggest hitters near the top, so it was kind of a less intense version of Great War 2, instead a victory than a loss. Same lack of cohesion, same overwhelming forces, different results.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Penkala]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1281488393' post='2410468']
Yeah, no kidding.
[/quote]

This man right here is definitely the one to listen to if you want to figure out whether a war is offensive or not.

(Hint: Attacking an uninvolved bloc in support of an offensive war is apparently [i]defensive[/i] action!)

[Chris Kaos]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1281524229' post='2411024']
So basically you opted for at-least a paper victory before even that became uncertain.
[/quote]
First, it wasn't a paper victory. By the numbers, we most certainly won. But to continue fighting without ODN and Legion would have taxed us heavily, and fighting wars back then wasn't the same as now. You didn't have war chests or banks, and rebuilding was slow going. Even in the best case scenario, we all would have been set back months, and it's possible that instead of a decisive (though perhaps not total, complete curbstomp) victory, it would have turned into a bitter grudge match. I opted for the smarter path.

[quote name='Esau']
That's pretty much how it happened. Though I remember all kinds of $@!-whupping at the lower echelons.

Course, those were the days when NPO had all the really biggest hitters near the top, so it was kind of a less intense version of Great War 2, instead a victory than a loss. Same lack of cohesion, same overwhelming forces, different results.[/quote]
Not really how it happened at all, as I said. But you're right. Below the top 50 or so, we had the advantage, and below the top 100, we were just overwhelmingly more in favour. But unfortunately, so long as those big nations kept going, we were looking for a hard fight--Legion was our big hitter and while in those days you could attack anyone, beating down the top 10 would have been tough, even with the dent in them from fighting Legion.




Anyway. That's my two cents since someone mentioned the GW. Though I'd give some historical perspective. No need to continue the debate, as I won't. Have fun with the current events debate.

[Earl Dumarest]

This confirms my long held beliefs about GATO.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Earl Dumarest' timestamp='1281528666' post='2411047']
This confirms my long held beliefs about GATO.
[/quote]

Honestly? I'd rather treaty GATO than WAPA, lol.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1281499896' post='2410725']
Have we found out yet what the real reason for cancelling is yet?

I'm just going to go ahead and posit that GATO was afraid of having a viceroy installed again. It's just as plausible as the non-communication justification.
[/quote]

and you would be utterly wrong and showing yourself to be quite ignorant then. the real reason has been given. take it or leave it, either way it does not change. if you don't like it, who cares. move on and get over it. all ya'll whining, crying, little babies still pouting that GATO canceled on NSO need to get over yourselves.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281362774' post='2407406']
Hoo set his precedent long ago. If he tells you that A will lead to B, you can BANK on A leading to B.[/quote]

Pretty much always been true. Ask Bushido, Illuminati (well the survivors anyway), OcUK, or any of the others that thought otherwise.

[quote]The fact that NSO went ahead and did A without consulting a SINGLE ally of theirs, IS, throwing their allies under the bus, and is something that a half decent ally would NOT do to another. Everyone who is hating on GATO in this thread goes "herp derp cowards"... but will not take even one second to consider NSOs actions of being TOLD what the consequences to their actions were.[/quote]

An interesting point, but no other ally canceled on NSO. Perhaps others will when this is over, but that would be when it is more appropriate. Canceling now, rightly or wrongly, [i]gives the public perception of cowardice[/i], fairly or unfairly.

Let's go back to the eve of the Karma War for a moment. IRON, MCXA, OG, NATO, GGA, Valhalla, TPF, and Echelon all canceled their direct treaties with NPO following the OV Incident. People here and even on web radio immediately labeled the act cowardice of the highest order--despite the fact that other treaties ensured that each of those alliances would be drawn into the conflict regardless and the cancellation was almost entirely symbolic. Were all those alliances cowards? Hell no. But the propaganda of the time and public perception outside of those alliances was that they were.

Is there ever grounds for canceling a treaty on the eve of or in the early stages of a war? Yes of course. The question is does this GATO cancellation pass the very high requirements for doing so? I'm not seeing it.

[PrinceArutha]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281478633' post='2410249']
Apparently the "you're all cowards" baiting failed so now it's time for the "if your allies don't jump in then that proves you're the aggressor, despite not actually being the aggressor" baiting.

Creative.
[/quote]


OR, they could have just been honest about it and been like "We dont like you so we're gonna attack you." Remember that one? Good times, Good War.

Good Luck in getting peace or a suitable form of resolution to you Heft. I like you guys over there in NSO and I know you guys will come out of this more uniformed and a tighter knit group of nations.


It sucks watching friends/allies beat up on friends..... I do wish you guys in NSO and the guys in VE the best of luck in all this.

[SpacingOutMan]

There have been greater examples of cowardice, and this is not one of them. Take your QQing elsewhere.