The New Grämlins

[TOLWYN]

WHY IS THIS THREAD SO LONG. YOU PEOPLE ARENT MAKING ANY PROGRESS SO JUST DECLARE PEACE AND MOVE ON ALREADY.

[Felix von Agnu]

I think the fact that both sides are saying the other was wrong in attacking is both hilarious and sad. Both sides had the right to attack, both sides exercised that right, and now both sides are reaping the consequences. All this talk of Gremlins entering aggressively is essentially grasping at straws, while Gremlins stance (according to a post by Mr. PK I believe I saw) is slightly hypocritical. Just end this now.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' date='10 July 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1278808554' post='2366403']
Exactly. Ivan has said he was against the pre-emptive strike.

In Gre's defense, people wanted them there on IRON(I know I did) and when Gre cancelled its treaties with various alliance, they said they would still come to their aid, so I think the claims of bandwagoning on Gre's part are dubious.
[/quote]

well, i think most have stated that Gre entered aggressively. only a few have stated bandwagoning. then again, this thread has gone on so long, i may well be confused.

[bakamitai]

We need new drama so we can move on from this old drama. Someone start a major war, ok? I mean one that doesn't involve us.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='TOLWYN' date='10 July 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1278820491' post='2366557']WHY IS THIS THREAD SO LONG.YOU PEOPLE ARENT MAKING ANY PROGRESS SO JUST DECLARE PEACE AND MOVE ON ALREADY.[/quote]

This may be the smartest thing I have seen posted yet.

Maybe it's just the caps. Boy am I glad to have capitalized Tolwyn back.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' date='10 July 2010 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1278808554' post='2366403']
In Gre's defense, people wanted them there on IRON(I know I did) and when Gre cancelled its treaties with various alliance, they said they would still come to their aid, so I think the claims of bandwagoning on Gre's part are dubious.
[/quote]
This is pretty true. It was pretty well expected in MK's general membership within minutes of IRON hitting us that Gre would counter them.

[quote name='bakamitai' date='11 July 2010 - 01:41 AM' timestamp='1278826867' post='2366670']
We need new drama so we can move on from this old drama. Someone start a major war, ok? I mean one that doesn't involve us.
[/quote]
Sure thing. All I need is a list of your protectorates.

[Derantol]

[quote name='TOLWYN' date='10 July 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1278820491' post='2366557']
WHY IS THIS THREAD SO LONG. YOU PEOPLE ARENT MAKING ANY PROGRESS SO JUST DECLARE PEACE AND MOVE ON ALREADY.
[/quote]

Believe it or not, everyone here is trying. We just have different ideas of what peace is.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Derantol' date='11 July 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1278877264' post='2367149']
Believe it or not, everyone here is trying. We just have different ideas of what peace is.
[/quote]
We've been trying for months now. It's just that we as an alliance are not willing to jump through hoops to get peace, and Ramirus is trying to make us do exactly that.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Can I just end part of this argument once and for all and say, as the guy who ran all of this, that had TOP entered the war we'd have immediately jumped them [/quote]
Oh my word thank you. Glad to see someone acknowledge it (more explicitly than Archon who kind of half-admitted it in that big post that Flak linked to in the other thread).

[quote]The NpO \m/ war was a little localised conflict that was only ever going to end one way, but which was giving both sides a great deal of fun[/quote]
It stopped being a 'little localised conflict' when FOK decided to jump in. At that point Polar was going to get rolled and their allies (NSO) weren't likely to allow that. As a major global war was in the interests of SG (remember they tried to start one less than a month before) it's not too surprising what happened, but you can't put the blame for that on IRON – by the time they entered the thing had ballooned out of control already. And as we all know (and is directly acknowledged in the quote above) their entry would have brought in C&G wherever they hit, though the pre-empt was still a poor strategic move.

[Delta1212]

I should probably point out that if a global war was in our interests we could have just not given TPF peace and used it as an excuse to blow everyone up. Literally [I]everyone[/I] over here was yelling at FOK but we weren't about to let FOK get rolled because Grub had decided to charge off the deepend.

Also, FOK, \m/ and PC versus NpO was roughly even. Polar would have hardly gotten "rolled."

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='12 July 2010 - 12:06 AM' timestamp='1278889594' post='2367348']
I should probably point out that if a global war was in our interests we could have just not given TPF peace and used it as an excuse to blow everyone up. Literally [I]everyone[/I] over here was yelling at FOK but we weren't about to let FOK get rolled because Grub had decided to charge off the deepend.

Also, FOK, \m/ and PC versus NpO was roughly even. Polar would have hardly gotten "rolled."
[/quote]

The sheer volume of trolling leading up to it and begging for our allies to enter the fray immediately after it started strongly suggests a different agenda than what you claim in that post.

As for the whole pre-emptive strike, it's clear now that IRON/TOP etc were going to get rolled regardless of how they entered. They had 3 choices, sit it out and let their allies die, enter and wait for CnG to counter them, or enter and inflict as much damage as possible to the core of the side lined up against them. None were great options and the war options were both bad because the end result was never going to be positive once Polaris pulled it's double cross.

The way they entered probably allowed them to inflict the max amount of damage they possibly could have in the war, which is about all you can ask for in a losing effort.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='11 July 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1278890515' post='2367367']
The sheer volume of trolling leading up to it and begging for our allies to enter the fray immediately after it started strongly suggests a different agenda than what you claim in that post.
[/quote]
This is hardly surprising. Most of the people who don't have to personally worry about things like politics or dealing with the consequences of war like it. Should I take the intense counter-arguing from your own side to mean that ex-Heg wanted to start a global war? For the record, I wanted to strangle most of the people doing the taunting because I knew exactly what impression it would give.

Actually, it was an interesting learning experience for me. It drove in the point that any strategy you develop has to take into account the fact that you aren't necessarily going to be able to control the mouths of people around you.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Delta1212

[Bob Janova]

Perhaps not the whole of SG believed that it was in their interests (both in TPF and Bipolar), true. But plenty of people did. Anyway, we're in danger of getting a long way off topic, so I'll leave it there in this thread. The important point here is that IRON aren't suddenly hugely immoral and in need of moral absolution in a way which \m/, Polaris or FOK aren't. A lot of people were throwing egos and weight about and acting aggressively, several declared war without any obligation to do so and IRON are being held to a huge double standard by Grämlins for no obvious reason other than they thought they could back at the start of this disaster.

I just hope that Grämlins' leadership see sense and take the peace which is still (unbelievably, really) offered to them instead of holding onto their pride so tightly that they literally destroy the alliance entirely. So far they're most of the way there, but there is at least something left. One or two more nations dragged into the mire and there won't be enough left to even worry a micro.

[ChairmanHal]

Well then, how's this for on topic: Gramlins should in the next day or so, perhaps less, drop below 1 million NS.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='12 July 2010 - 12:54 AM' timestamp='1278888879' post='2367332']
It stopped being a 'little localised conflict' when FOK decided to jump in.
[/quote]
My god, still this crap?

Delta already pointed this out to you, but I'll do it again:
With FOK, the sides at that time were about [b]even[/b], perhaps the most even fight Planet Bob would've ever seen.

Everyone who tried to gain political advantage out of this unfortunate situation are the ones to blame for that escalation. You really think SG infighting, which is what this essentially was, would've done us that much good in the long run?

No, but certain people tried to push their agenda, and they got the bill handed to them for that. Had they not pre-empted CnG, but hit other alliances not connected to CnG instead, our opponents would've won that war.
Do I need to remind you of the hatred across the globe for \m/ and its actions? Few alliances were willing to do the good thing, just because it was \m/. If you really think our intent was to spark a global war (which we thought and knew we would win), you are delusional.
The truth is that this situation was [b]not[/b] in the interests of SG, and the amount of foreign pressure put on FOK to not involve ourselves in that particular war is a testament to that.

You will find no sympathy from me for those who tried to gain political influence over our backs (backs not so unfamiliar to some of them), while at the same time spouting nonsense about their righteousness.

Please, no more "but they're victims for falling into the SG trap!" because the only ones to blame are they themselves.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Tromp' date='11 July 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1278894455' post='2367430']
My god, still this crap?

Delta already pointed this out to you, but I'll do it again:
With FOK, the sides at that time were about [b]even[/b], perhaps the most even fight Planet Bob would've ever seen. [/quote]
The point was that it was no longer localized.

[quote]=Everyone who tried to gain political advantage out of this unfortunate situation are the ones to blame for that escalation. You really think SG infighting, which is what this essentially was, would've done us that much good in the long run?

No, but certain people tried to push their agenda, and they got the bill handed to them for that. Had they not pre-empted CnG, but hit other alliances not connected to CnG instead, our opponents would've won that war.
Do I need to remind you of the hatred across the globe for \m/ and its actions? Few alliances were willing to do the good thing, just because it was \m/. If you really think our intent was to spark a global war (which we thought and knew we would win), you are delusional.[/quote]
Um, no, they wouldn't have. The only difference would be that NpO, STA, a few smaller, blue alliances, and maybe UPN would have been on the other side. That isn't nearly enough to change the outcome of the war.

[Lennox]

I am amazed this topic is still here. It seems you guys have nothing better to argue about.

[Crymson]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='09 July 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1278711925' post='2365178']
In one swift move over the new year TOP gov managed to push Gre FOK and MHA away which then led to the collapse of Cit
[/quote]

Hahaha. Wow... did you get all of your information on that war from Ramirus? I think you did.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Tromp' date='12 July 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1278894455' post='2367430']


No, but certain people tried to push their agenda, and they got the bill handed to them for that. Had they not pre-empted CnG, but hit other alliances not connected to CnG instead, our opponents would've won that war.

[/quote]


Did you miss Sandwich's post on the previous page that said they were ready to roll TOP as soon as TOP attacked anyone?

And I am curious, who would you have had them hit? Everyone involved on the other side was tied to SF/CnG.

[Believland]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='09 July 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1278711925' post='2365178']
The reason this game is getting dull is that nobody can run a decent cold war any-more, especially on your side, In one swift move over the new year TOP gov managed to push Gre FOK and MHA away which then led to the collapse of Cit, moves which destroyed the balance of power to your detriment, yet your gov still pushed all in on a pair of 4's
[/quote]
Hahaha. See the thing was that TOP would have sacrificed all it's pixels for Gre and FOK. The collapse of Citadel wasn't due to TOP pushing you guys away. It was the OTP's that you guys agreed not to attack. On both sides. IRON and Hegemony, MK and the rest of CnG and SF all forced you guys not to get along. You guys didn't value Citadel anymore. You took it for-granted. And it collapsed because of it.

As far as a decent Cold War: I didn't see you guys try to live on your own. You guys buddied up to SF, which had ties to Frostbite. Not to mention CnG had a couple of ties to Citadel when it was still around. How do you want to have a cold war with those types of treaties? If you want to have a cold war than stop trying to treaty everyone you meet. Don't blame it on TOP, when you can't make it a day without making an ally out of someone who you just opened up an embassy with. So once again you blame everyone else but you, typical.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Believland' date='11 July 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1278900150' post='2367591']
Hahaha. See the thing was that TOP would have sacrificed all it's pixels for Gre and FOK.
[/quote]
If that's the case, I find it quite funny how they ignored Umbrella when they were need just to hit CnG when they thought CnG might be joining the same side as Umbrella.

[Believland]

[quote name='flak attack' date='11 July 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1278903617' post='2367654']
If that's the case, I find it quite funny how they ignored Umbrella when they were needed just to hit CnG when they thought CnG might be joining the same side as Umbrella.
[/quote]
There's no denying that TOP let paranoia get to them and acted on dumb decisions because of it. It's just a fact. But does that mean they wouldn't risk pixels for everyone in Citadel and FOK? No, not at all.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Gre started the collapse of Citadel in the Worst War Ever. That much is pretty certain.

[shahenshah]

The state of Cit around Oct-Nov was such that Gre was asking IRON to back-stab TOP, I can only guess what was the state at later stages post-lots of drama in between.

[Cataduanes]

Oh Gre , its about time you stopped this.