The New Grämlins

[Dom Zak]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='16 July 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1279326127' post='2375239']
I'm having quite the chuckle, especially now that I'm seeing what some current Gramlins think of Ram.

*Matt points to his sig quote.

Apparently running some tech imports allows you some leeway in the lunacy department.
[/quote]

And your sig quote is from yesterday July 15th.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='16 July 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1279324717' post='2375206']
Both points you are correct, so is synth. It was a defensive decleration for GRE, something you didnt bother to rebuttal him on, very humble of you Haf.
[/quote]
Normally I would say you are wrong but it depends on what you mean. If you saying the declaration and only the delcaration itself was in defense of an ally then yes, you are right.

But if you are saying that Gre's war against IRON is defensive in general then you are wrong.

[andrew734]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='17 July 2010 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1279341239' post='2375482']
But if you are saying that Gre's war against IRON is defensive in general then you are wrong.
[/quote]

And by war you mean bending over and taking it dry.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='andrew734' date='17 July 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1279341574' post='2375491']
And by war you mean bending over and taking it dry.
[/quote]
Well.......yeah, Now that you're beating their faces in. But Overall my point is that their war against IRON is aggressive.

How many Gremlins do you have left ?

I can't seem to find Chairman Hals Death Watch Blog.

[andrew734]

17 left with one set to delete tomorrow

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='16 July 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1279324717' post='2375206']
Both points you are correct, so is synth. It was a defensive decleration for GRE, something you didnt bother to rebuttal him on, very humble of you Haf.
[/quote]
In case you haven't figured this out, I don't care about whether war declarations are defensive or offensive, and have been complaining about the obsession with this for roughly two years now.

In one sense, all declarations of war are offensive: they involve launching an offense. (Well, except ghost DoWs, but even they usually come with one or two nation wars attached.)

In another sense, all declarations of war are defensive: they involve defending an alliance's interests.

Frankly if you worry too much about this, you get into inane lawyer talk of the sort that is very common around here.

[Stetson76]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='16 July 2010 - 12:54 AM' timestamp='1279259629' post='2374252']
Surrender [b]typically[/b] follows defeat but it doesn't always indicate such. As I've stated before, surrendering is a functional equivalent of submitting yourself in response to your wrongdoing.
Just because a party *can* escape restitution for their actions doesn't make it the right thing to do.
If I were to shoplift and I made it out of the store the odds of my being "caught" are quite low; but that doesn't mean it isn't right to acknowledge my wrongdoing.
[/quote]

You keep using a legal description of surrender yet you refuse to acknowledge that no criminal turns themselves in without knowing the worst case re their punishment. You've refused to detail the "sentencing" guidelines to allow them to make an informed decision.

[quote]Surely you must see the folly in depending on the sincerity of an apology offered under duress?
Especially considering so many IRON and DAWN members here have made it clear that you are not "sorry"[/quote]

If they're not sorry, then what the hell are you trying to still accomplish?

[quote]Many of those who took the time to actually understand the process and the motivation are no longer outraged.
[/quote]

Please point out one person who has come around to your argument that wasn't there to begin with?

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='17 July 2010 - 05:34 AM' timestamp='1279341239' post='2375482']
Normally I would say you are wrong but it depends on what you mean. If you saying the declaration and only the delcaration itself was in defense of an ally then yes, you are right.

But if you are saying that Gre's war against IRON is defensive in general then you are wrong.
[/quote]

Yes, I am talking about the decleration and yes I am right. The war now is a curbstomp by IRON and DAWN. Its mildly funny to the posts of "gramlins are dying yuk yuk" and the war declerations keep happening, I think its great, RAM was right might does make right. Gramlins went into the war against IRON as a defensive action for our allies in MK.

No matter how loud the pillars of intellect scream that isnt the case, it was, I was there and the intent was clear. It evolved to more then that, particularly after the white peace we gave to Zenith and OG, I was at GRE there was a noticable shift in tone and specifics in communication on what the war would evolve too. The intent at that point became crystal clear, punish IRON at all costs and everything else be dammed. Thats when the exodus began enmass myself included.

I do think its pretty cool seeing the couragousness of the last few pages, very telling to see the home base of many of the posters even one or two former celebrities showed up to dish out pearls of wisdom its been a real treat all 200+ pages. Very entertaining particularly the quick attempts to rewrite the history of the start of the conflict.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Thorgrum

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='17 July 2010 - 06:11 AM' timestamp='1279343481' post='2375521']
In case you haven't figured this out, I don't care about whether war declarations are defensive or offensive, and have been complaining about the obsession with this for roughly two years now.[/quote]

Oh I have Hef, I, like everyone else here care a lot about what you think and what you have to say.

[quote]Frankly if you worry too much about this, you get into inane lawyer talk of the sort that is very common around here.
[/quote]

Well yes, observing you and your stated obsession is clear evidence of your statement.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='17 July 2010 - 09:04 AM' timestamp='1279375423' post='2375757']
Yes, I am talking about the decleration and yes I am right. The war now is a curbstomp by IRON and DAWN. Its mildly funny to the posts of "gramlins are dying yuk yuk" and the war declerations keep happening, I think its great, RAM was right might does make right. Gramlins went into the war against IRON as a defensive action for our allies in MK.

No matter how loud the pillars of intellect scream that isnt the case, it was, I was there and the intent was clear. It evolved to more then that, particularly after the white peace we gave to Zenith and OG, I was at GRE there was a noticable shift in tone and specifics in communication on what the war would evolve too. The intent at that point became crystal clear, punish IRON at all costs and everything else be dammed. Thats when the exodus began enmass myself included.

I do think its pretty cool seeing the couragousness of the last few pages, very telling to see the home base of many of the posters even one or two former celebrities showed up to dish out pearls of wisdom its been a real treat all 200+ pages. Very entertaining particularly the quick attempts to rewrite the history of the start of the conflict.
[/quote]

wait, coming from someone who was in Gremlins when the war went south for TOP/co and refused to allow it to be called a curbstomp since TOP/co aggressively attacked, despite claiming to be defending both NSO/Polaris and whatnot, i find it mildly amusing you become a hypocrite now.

IRON/DAWN are not curbstomping Gremlins. there is a white peace by both on the table that Gremlins refuses to take. It is not their (IRON/DAWN) fault that Gremlins are acting like fools. to call this a curbstomp is ridiculous if the TOP/Co was not a curbstomp after the first week.

and you even stated it yourself. you were in Gre when Gre thought it could curbstomp some more on IRON. then the tables turned and now you expect to raise sympathy for the patheticness that Gre has become. the pathetic alliance it is now is partially your fault since you were there and did not fight to stop curbstomping on IRON. to end the war at the ESA.

much like the preemptive attack was TOP/co's own prerogative, the continuance of this war was solely Gre's prerogative. They are getting their just dessert for acting like idiots and not getting peace with the ESA. the fact that Gre is imploding is the fault of Ram, MPK, and others who have followed this path trying to harm IRON some more simply cuz they thought they can. don't blame IRON cuz Ram, MPK, you, synth, and others refused to do the honorable thing and accept peace at the ESA.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='17 July 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1279376183' post='2375768']
and you even stated it yourself. you were in Gre when Gre thought it could curbstomp some more on IRON. then the tables turned and now you expect to raise sympathy for the patheticness that Gre has become. the pathetic alliance it is now is partially your fault since you were there and did not fight to stop curbstomping on IRON. to end the war at the ESA.
[/quote]

This about as good an example as you are going to see of someone having thier head so far up their $@! that all that comes out of thier mouth is !@#$. Quick lesson:

1. You should ask "are you trying to raise sympathy" rather then state absolutely what someone is doing, because you dont know and are wrong. It makes you look stupid, but that hasnt really bothered you in the past Doch so I will move on.

2. I was gone before the ESA was signed, a month before actually. Im not going to go on about the inner workings of gramlins but I said loudly to anyone who would listen "Ramirus is a meglomaniac" I was granted my leave before the war began, I stayed because I wanted to fight for the right reason and I did.

Cool story though Doch, did you copy and paste one of your other replies from pg 102 or is this an original?

[shilo]

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='17 July 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1279375423' post='2375757']
Yes, I am talking about the decleration and yes I am right. The war now is a curbstomp by IRON and DAWN. Its mildly funny to the posts of "gramlins are dying yuk yuk" and the war declerations keep happening, I think its great, RAM was right might does make right.
[/quote]
Please point out to me how this can be called a curbstomp if the offer of white peace is still on the table, and the supposed victim of said curbstomp refuses to take it? Do you propose that DAWN and IRON self-delete to not make it one? Should we cease fighting against gRAMlins despite them refusing to accept peace?

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='17 July 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1279375423' post='2375757']
Gramlins went into the war against IRON as a defensive action for our allies in MK.
[/quote]
What allies? gRAMlins started an aggressive war to defend an alliance where they not long before cut all ties to. Of course the spirit of their attack likely was defensive, but the spirit of a declaration alone doesn't define that declaration.

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='17 July 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1279375423' post='2375757']
No matter how loud the pillars of intellect scream that isnt the case, it was, I was there and the intent was clear. It evolved to more then that, particularly after the white peace we gave to Zenith and OG, I was at GRE there was a noticable shift in tone and specifics in communication on what the war would evolve too. The intent at that point became crystal clear, punish IRON at all costs and everything else be dammed. Thats when the exodus began enmass myself included.
[/quote]
So why is it a curbstomp now if you yourself note that gRAMlins simply are in a vendetta and obviously can't man up to stop it?

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='17 July 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1279375423' post='2375757']
I do think its pretty cool seeing the couragousness of the last few pages, very telling to see the home base of many of the posters even one or two former celebrities showed up to dish out pearls of wisdom its been a real treat all 200+ pages. Very entertaining particularly the quick attempts to rewrite the history of the start of the conflict.
[/quote]
You posts are often almost as precious as those from MPK. Keep up that gRAMlin spirit

Edited July 17, 2010 by shilo

[Baldr]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 July 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1279086098' post='2370560']
The war should be a reminder to you that you have refused to acknowledge any culpability or wrongdoing and that [b]your only humility was at the barrel of a gun.[/b]
[b]I[/b] am banging [b]my[/b] head against the wall trying to understand why you so ferociously resist acknowledging your actions and accepting the honorable path to restitution and peace.[/quote]

[img]http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/217/605074-cartman_super.jpg[/img]


[quote]Do you find it at all ironic that most of the examples people have surfaced here as our "dishonor" had been executed under the leadership of those "mature members" the typists here seem to idolize?
[/quote]

The #1 example of your dishonor is trying to force IRON/DAWN into unconditional surrender.

[Monster]

Treatyless declaration =/= aggressive inherently. I don't think NSO declaring war for STA was an aggressive war.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' date='17 July 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1279389037' post='2376007']
Treatyless declaration =/= aggressive inherently. I don't think NSO declaring war for STA was an aggressive war.
[/quote]

Not necessarily no, but at this point Gre's continued actions proved that defense of another was not their primary goal.

((also hey, I'm back from vacation and ready to resume $@! kicking!))

[shilo]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' date='17 July 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1279389037' post='2376007']
Treatyless declaration =/= aggressive inherently. I don't think NSO declaring war for STA was an aggressive war.
[/quote]
There are two perspectives here: commonly accepted you are acting defensively if you have been attacked, or if you are defending an ally who in turn was attacked
It gets more complicated if you add non-staggering or not, was the original war defensive or not etc into the game.

And then there is fighting for a friend, with or without a treaty, no matter for what. Every alliance has the right to declare war for whatever reason they have. Of course they also have to live with the consequences of their actions. My opinion is you don't really need to justify yourself to anyone but to your friends/allies, so I think trying to take your motive and web it into what is commonly accepted, or spin the facts so that more people will accept your point of view is pretty sad. You should not be in a conflict, much less one where you are not defending by the standard above, for anything but your friends.


gRAMlins have the right to go treatyless, and they surely can fight for whatever alliance they like, and fight against any alliance they like. But when they went treatyless, they obviously chose their own path, one outside of how the majority conducts their business, especially for an alliance not shy of international interventions. Why they then still want their unusual path to be defined within the norm, when the whole intention was to be outside of it is beyond my understanding. When you do something special, you should stand by your convictions and not attempt to call it something else than it is.


And to repeat myself: the motive of a declaration of war, does not, and will not, define the declaration of war itself
Surely it's your right to provide to the outside world your motive, and you can definitely hope that a majority of alliances agree with that motive.
But when motive alone defines your declaration of war, when you lack "hard evidence" such as being attacked yourself or having a treaty binding you to defend another alliance, it's only honest to accept that the war was aggressive by the common standards (legal would be the wrong term considering we have no international law). This does in no way diminish your motives, but the consequences, especially for a treatyless alliance, may and will be that you will be treated like an aggressor with an aggressive motive. It can trigger defensive treaties, simply because people don't have to agree with your motive.
I just hope that gRAMlins didn't expect that when they decided to go treatyless, that they would still be treated like an alliance with treaties.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Thorgrum' date='17 July 2010 - 09:27 AM' timestamp='1279376812' post='2375774']
This about as good an example as you are going to see of someone having thier head so far up their $@! that all that comes out of thier mouth is !@#$. Quick lesson:

1. You should ask "are you trying to raise sympathy" rather then state absolutely what someone is doing, because you dont know and are wrong. It makes you look stupid, but that hasnt really bothered you in the past Doch so I will move on.

2. I was gone before the ESA was signed, a month before actually. Im not going to go on about the inner workings of gramlins but I said loudly to anyone who would listen "Ramirus is a meglomaniac" I was granted my leave before the war began, I stayed because I wanted to fight for the right reason and I did.

Cool story though Doch, did you copy and paste one of your other replies from pg 102 or is this an original?
[/quote]

ahh i was mistaken as to when you left. fine i apologize.

as for me having my head up my $@!, please, you turn a war that Gremlins had won into IRON/DAWN curbstomping them despite IRON/DAWN offering white peace to Gremlins.... and i am the one with the head up my $@!... "cool story bro".

did you copy and paste some drivel from Ram or MPK? i get it, you want to defend Gremlins while not suffering the fate they have brought on themselves. you want to make others to blame rather than Ramirus and the rest of Gremlins for what is going on to Gremlins. and don't even try to say i am putting words in your mouth, since you stated very clearly that IRON/DAWN are "curbstomping" them now. IRON/DAWN have offered white peace to them, it is not IRON or DAWN's fault that Gremlins have yet to accept. blame Ramirus for the destruction of Gremlins not IRON or DAWN.

so how about you get your had outta your own $@! before attempting to comment on where my own head is. you may come out smelling and looking cleaner mate.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='17 July 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1279430086' post='2376684']
ahh i was mistaken as to when you left. fine i apologize.

as for me having my head up my $@!, please, you turn a war that Gremlins had won into IRON/DAWN curbstomping them despite IRON/DAWN offering white peace to Gremlins.... and i am the one with the head up my $@!... "cool story bro".

did you copy and paste some drivel from Ram or MPK? i get it, you want to defend Gremlins while not suffering the fate they have brought on themselves. you want to make others to blame rather than Ramirus and the rest of Gremlins for what is going on to Gremlins. and don't even try to say i am putting words in your mouth, since you stated very clearly that IRON/DAWN are "curbstomping" them now. IRON/DAWN have offered white peace to them, it is not IRON or DAWN's fault that Gremlins have yet to accept. blame Ramirus for the destruction of Gremlins not IRON or DAWN.

so how about you get your had outta your own $@! before attempting to comment on where my own head is. you may come out smelling and looking cleaner mate.
[/quote]

His most recent response to me in this thread was a post in which he said something along the lines of "you're a loser" and addressed none of my points. Don't be too surprised if you don't hear anything meaningful from him. I get the feeling that he just uses political discussions as an outlet for his anger.

That said, yeah, his "curbstomp" comment is pure gold. Mindless bias, anyone?

Edited July 18, 2010 by Crymson

[SynthFG]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='18 July 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1279408088' post='2376387']
Not necessarily no, but at this point Gre's continued actions proved that defense of another was not their primary goal.

((also hey, I'm back from vacation and ready to resume $@! kicking!))
[/quote]
Once again this circular and retarded argument
What is occurring now is unrelated completely to how gre went in or anything to do with the decision to go paperless

Being as for the last month or so before the signing of ESA gre were not even fighting the war anymore due to lack of targets is can and should be seen as a completely different conflict bought about by ram's arrogance and the stupidity of those who blindly followed him

[shahenshah]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='18 July 2010 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1279449093' post='2377088']
Once again this circular and retarded argument
What is occurring now is unrelated completely to how gre went in or anything to do with the decision to go paperless

Being as for the last month or so before the signing of ESA gre were not even fighting the war anymore due to lack of targets is can and should be seen as a completely different conflict bought about by ram's arrogance and the stupidity of those who blindly followed him
[/quote]

Actually, we hoped for it to be a different conflict, When our allies tried to help, they were reminded of their peace term clauses of not 're-entering' the conflict. So, it is the same conflict, Sorry :/.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='18 July 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1279451317' post='2377098']
Actually, we hoped for it to be a different conflict, When our allies tried to help, they were reminded of their peace term clauses of not 're-entering' the conflict. So, it is the same conflict, Sorry :/.
[/quote]
I have no control over what others are saying to your allies,
But you seem to be doing OK sitting waiting for Gre to implode on itself

[shilo]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='18 July 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1279455435' post='2377133']
I have no control over what others are saying to your allies,
But you seem to be doing OK sitting waiting for Gre to implode on itself
[/quote]
Yeah, ram truly is a kind opponent. Though by all means, his insanity did cost us quite a lot economically. I sure many are quite satisfied with that outcome.

[Baldr]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='18 July 2010 - 05:31 AM' timestamp='1279449093' post='2377088']
What is occurring now is unrelated completely to how gre went in or anything to do with the decision to go paperless[/quote]

It is, however, 100% related to this thread and what is happening now.


[quote name='SynthFG' date='18 July 2010 - 07:17 AM' timestamp='1279455435' post='2377133']
I have no control over what others are saying to your allies,
But you seem to be doing OK sitting waiting for Gre to implode on itself
[/quote]

Sitting and waiting? Gramlins is down to 927,000 ns, and continues to move steadily downward. As the NS line rises, the lowest level Gramlin gets attacked, knocked down. No Gramlin who has been hit that way has been able to recover. Matthew "Definitions don't matter" PK is next in line at 101k. Everyone below that is in peace mode or being staggered. Gramlins is down to 17 nations.

All of that isn't happening because IRON/DAWN are doing nothing.

You are complaining that IRON didn't just throw everything they had at Gramlins all at once, lose, and comply with Gramlins. Now doing *that* would have been retarded.

Ramirus is pretty funny. For all of his tough talk and bluster, he isn't fighting back at all. I just ended a week of war with him. His total contribution was to spy away 2 nukes on the first day, while I was in defcon 5 and low threat to do a collection. A few days later, when I was in normal war mode, he tried twice to gather intelligence. And that's as close as he came to fighting back.

He never sent so much as a CM at me. He's got $800M in cash, and you can buy from 0 to 1000 infra for less than $6M. With the 1,000 infra, he could then buy two nukes. But he just sits there, turtling. I guess he is still under the delusion that IRON is going to agree to become his slave any time now, and all he needs to do is wait.

For someone who was set on "unconditional surrender or war forever", he doesn't take the war part very seriously.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='18 July 2010 - 06:31 AM' timestamp='1279449093' post='2377088']
Once again this circular and retarded argument
What is occurring now is unrelated completely to how gre went in or anything to do with the decision to go paperless

Being as for the last month or so before the signing of ESA gre were not even fighting the war anymore due to lack of targets is can and should be seen as a completely different conflict bought about by ram's arrogance and the stupidity of those who blindly followed him
[/quote]

You miss the point. At declaration Gre could have argued that they were acting in defense of others, probably successfully at that.

After the ESA was signed however that excuse went out the window, if gre were interested in defending C&G they'd have gotten out when C&G did. By pursuing this ridiculous conflict far beyond the point of sanity Gre has demonstrated they were more interested in chasing some crazy vendetta against IRON than anything else.

This robs gre of any attempted to paint their treatyless entry into a war as anything other than opportunistic.

the only thing circular and retarded here is Gre's position and your inability to see that an alliances motives matter in determining if an action is acceptable or not. Defending another is an acceptable reason for war, chasing a grudge because you can is not.

[eejack]

[quote name='Baldr' date='18 July 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1279467742' post='2377275']
You are complaining that IRON didn't just throw everything they had at Gramlins all at once, lose, and comply with Gramlins. Now doing *that* would have been retarded.
[/quote]

They did not need to. Old Guard and Zenith ran into the brick wall that *was* grämlins early in the war ( Of course we got our teeth kicked in but we tied them up for a while ) in defense of IRON. It was enough to blunt and befuddle the early stages of the grämlins offensive, though to grämlin's credit, we are still recovering months later.

EEjack