The New Grämlins

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Tromp' date='20 July 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1279657347' post='2381183']
I see you have sadistic pleasure in seeing Gremlins being destroyed.
Such a sad display, really.

Totally irrelevant to what he said too.
[/quote]

you fail to realize whose fault it is that Gremlins are being destroyed. They continued the war instead of ending it with the ESA. They continue the war now instead of accepting the white peace offered by IRON/DAWN. It would seem that Gremlins have a much more masochistic view of this war than anyone.

[ChairmanHal]

Gramlins is now at 16 nations. When I started the Gramlins Death Watch in my blog on 14 May 2010, they were at 38 nations.

This would be faster if they had...[url="http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b8/Destructconstitution.ogg"]a nice red self destruct button[/url]!

[img]http://www.techreaders.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Self-Destruct-Button.jpg[/img]

Edited July 21, 2010 by ChairmanHal

[Williambonney]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='20 July 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1279674048' post='2381616']
Gramlins is now at 16 nations. When I started the Gramlins Death Watch in my blog on 14 May 2010, they were at 38 nations.

This would be faster if they had...[url="http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b8/Destructconstitution.ogg"]a nice red self destruct button[/url]!

[img]http://www.techreaders.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Self-Destruct-Button.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
There's only four more for IRON and DAWN to toss into the meat grinder (five if temptation island comes out of peace mode).

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Tromp' date='21 July 2010 - 01:22 AM' timestamp='1279657347' post='2381183']
I see you have sadistic pleasure in seeing Gremlins being destroyed.
Such a sad display, really.

Totally irrelevant to what he said too.
[/quote]

Say this to Ramrius, that will be totally relevant.


[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='21 July 2010 - 05:29 AM' timestamp='1279672123' post='2381566']
you fail to realize whose fault it is that Gremlins are being destroyed. They continued the war instead of ending it with the ESA. They continue the war now instead of accepting the white peace offered by IRON/DAWN. It would seem that Gremlins have a much more masochistic view of this war than anyone.
[/quote]

Oh he realizes it.

Edited July 21, 2010 by shahenshah

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='20 July 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1279655371' post='2381140']
1) Our Codex prevents us from issuing harsh terms.
[/quote]

Your codex amounts to your word, something nobody puts any credence in any longer.

[quote]2) We would be crushed by everyone (deservedly so) if we issued harsh terms.[/quote]

This assumption is flawed, if it was correct you'd have already been rolled for this farce about 100 pages ago.

[quote]3) We've practically come right out and said what the terms are like 50 times.[/quote]

it took you about 170 pages, but yea eventually you did. Too bad the actual terms are just as stupid as the first try around.

[quote]
4) Pay attention.
[/quote]

Pay Attention.

[Max Power]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='20 July 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1279674048' post='2381616']
Gramlins is now at 16 nations. When I started the Gramlins Death Watch in my blog on 14 May 2010, they were at 38 nations.

This would be faster if they had...[url="http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b8/Destructconstitution.ogg"]a nice red self destruct button[/url]!

[img]http://www.techreaders.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Self-Destruct-Button.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Two more deletions and GOONS can start raiding them!

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='20 July 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1279684951' post='2382002']
Your codex amounts to your word, something nobody puts any credence in any longer.[/quote]

Ironic considering we have only done precisely what we said we would do....



[quote]This assumption is flawed, if it was correct you'd have already been rolled for this farce about 100 pages ago.[/quote]

No, because our terms are just and honorable. You have taken issue with the process, not the terms.



[quote]it took you about 170 pages, but yea eventually you did. Too bad the actual terms are just as stupid as the first try around.[/quote]

I don't understand your sentence. What "first time around?"
Gremlins made it quite clear from the start what we were after, that our demands were not harsh or excessive and that they fully complied with the principles set forth in our codex.
IRON knew and knows this, but they used the OWF "outrage" to play dumb and pretend they didn't.
IRON isn't stupid; they know the point of this but they can find themselves in a more powerful position by pretending to be confused.



[quote]Pay Attention.
[/quote]

I think you and I may be some of the very few people who have read through this entire thread.

[James Maximus]

[quote name='Max Power' date='21 July 2010 - 12:13 AM' timestamp='1279685610' post='2382025']
Two more deletions and GOONS can start raiding them!
[/quote]
Besides the whole MHA treaty...

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='James Maximus' date='20 July 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1279687959' post='2382089']
Besides the whole MHA treaty...
[/quote]

And the fact that we don't rely on treaties to protect us...

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='21 July 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1279688534' post='2382097']
And the fact that we don't rely on treaties to protect us...
[/quote]
Or each other, judging by your response to our attacks...

[Derantol]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='20 July 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1279687897' post='2382088']
Ironic considering we have only done precisely what we said we would do....
[/quote]

And what you've said you would do violates how most of us see the codex. We at IRON have found the very process you initially outlined to be unacceptable, and have told you as such constantly. I understand that only your interpretation of the codex matters, but you say in one place you won't do anything unacceptable and we see in another that you, in fact, will. No, the process isn't against the codex, but it took some careful definitions of certain words (such as surrender terms vs. peace terms) to make it so. Hence why we don't trust your word.

[quote]
No, because our terms are just and honorable. You have taken issue with the process, not the terms.
[/quote]

Your terms *were* just and honorable... back when the ESA was being signed. Instead, you jerked us around, kept us at war, and tried to make us surrender unconditionally. I don't think people are joking when they say that they think you're lucky to still be getting white peace after all this.

[quote]
I don't understand your sentence. What "first time around?"
Gremlins made it quite clear from the start what we were after, that our demands were not harsh or excessive and that they fully complied with the principles set forth in our codex.
IRON knew and knows this, but they used the OWF "outrage" to play dumb and pretend they didn't.
IRON isn't stupid; they know the point of this but they can find themselves in a more powerful position by pretending to be confused.
[/quote]

The "first time around" is referring to the unconditional surrender bit. It definitely wasn't clear at first that you weren't going to ask for anything harsh *after* the unconditional surrender; after all, if we knew that it wouldn't be hard, it wouldn't be sincere, right? Once you finally let go and just told us the terms, they weren't acceptable anymore, not after three and a half months of limited rebuilding. We don't need to play into the OWF "outrage" because most of the incredulity left is directed at the fact that this is still going on, not the fact that you were trying to get us to unconditionally surrender like it was a number of weeks ago. And we find ourselves in a more powerful position because we're not the only ones that think we're right.

[quote]
I think you and I may be some of the very few people who have read through this entire thread.
[/quote]

Some of the few, but not the only ones... *sigh*

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='20 July 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1279655235' post='2381138']
It's going to be tough to get any GA's in when these guys are the size they are
I simply don't have enough soldiers, even when I deploy 100% after buying, and double nuking them... my odds end up being around 50%
I'm better off actually testing the waters with underdog bonuses.
[/quote]
If you're getting 50% after that, then yes, underdog attacks are the way to go.

They were pretty awesome for me last war actually.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='21 July 2010 - 06:51 AM' timestamp='1279687897' post='2382088']
Ironic considering we have only done precisely what we said we would do....





No, because our terms are just and honorable. You have taken issue with the process, not the terms.





I don't understand your sentence. What "first time around?"
Gremlins made it quite clear from the start what we were after, that our demands were not harsh or excessive and that they fully complied with the principles set forth in our codex.
IRON knew and knows this, but they used the OWF "outrage" to play dumb and pretend they didn't.
IRON isn't stupid; they know the point of this but they can find themselves in a more powerful position by pretending to be confused.





I think you and I may be some of the very few people who have read through this entire thread.
[/quote]

No one in his right mind would accept unconditional surrender. Whether the terms are obvious or not. Gremlins of today have displayed again and again that they go back and forth on their word as they please. This has nothing to do with the honorable concept of the codex, it's just your self rightous display of wannabe power.

The only thing you want to achieve with this is a martyr role and your own utter destruction. If you go by the codex, why dont you accept the white peace offered? It has always been seen by Gremlins as an honorable end of armed conflict. Oh yeah i forgot, the old values dont apply anymore and you dont give a rats $@!. So please dont call on the codex when you so clearly want to distance yourselves from the "old" Gremlins.

[Golan 1st]

What's really funny here is that after having their alliance destroyed for their "noble cause", white peace, from their point of view, really does not look like an honourable end to this war anymore. By taking it, they will basically admit that they are the fools everybody else already knows they are. They placed themselves in position where they have no honourable option. The best they can hope for is to save what is left and this too is just thank to our impossible generosity.
That unless, of course, the whole idea from the beginning was for Gramlins to serve as suicide bombers for C&G's coalition, and sacrifice themselves to slow our rebuilding and recovery from the war. The support they received from their friends, who held our allies from helping us, may suggests that this is exactly was the purpose of this idiocy. I have no hard evidence to support this "theory", but even without formally agreeing on this, quiet understanding between leaders of Gramlins and some of their "friends" could make this happen.
Whether this is what happened or not, the idea that we will agree to roll back to the the day the ESA was signed, pretend that nothing happened since and allow Gramlins to continue from there is a complete nonsense.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='21 July 2010 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1279705038' post='2382333']
No one in his right mind would accept unconditional surrender. Whether the terms are obvious or not. Gremlins of today have displayed again and again that they go back and forth on their word as they please. This has nothing to do with the honorable concept of the codex, it's just your self rightous display of wannabe power.

[/quote]

TBH Unconditional surrender isn't that far out concept, it's just that you need a damn good reason to demand it and you need to be in a position to permanenetly hold your opponent down if they don't agree,
Gre had neither of those,
there was no special grudge against IRON, just a historical accident that put Gre on them for a 2nd time, and Gre whilst they could take on anyone at the top levels were never powerful enough to enforce this alone, even if they had a remotly justifiable reason to demand it

This is all about the ambition and ego of one idiot to dominate the SF/CnG side of the web as a leader,
He's been thwarted and rejected in that ambition more times in the past 6 months than has yet been made public and now he has nothing left but this,

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='21 July 2010 - 06:50 AM' timestamp='1279709407' post='2382378']
This is all about the ambition and ego of one idiot to dominate the SF/CnG side of the web as a leader,
He's been thwarted and rejected in that ambition more times in the past 6 months than has yet been made public and now he has nothing left but this,
[/quote]

This doesn't surprise me one bit, too bad for him his legacy is that of a CN laughingstock. Would you by chance care to share some details?

[shilo]

[quote name='Golan 1st' date='21 July 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1279709253' post='2382376']
What's really funny here is that after having their alliance destroyed for their "noble cause", white peace, from their point of view, really does not look like an honourable end to this war anymore. By taking it, they will basically admit that they are the fools everybody else already knows they are. They placed themselves in position where they have no honourable option. The best they can hope for is to save what is left and this too is just thank to our impossible generosity.
That unless, of course, the whole idea from the beginning was for Gramlins to serve as suicide bombers for C&G's coalition, and sacrifice themselves to slow our rebuilding and recovery from the war. The support they received from their friends, who held our allies from helping us, may suggests that this is exactly was the purpose of this idiocy. I have no hard evidence to support this "theory", but even without formally agreeing on this, quiet understanding between leaders of Gramlins and some of their "friends" could make this happen.
Whether this is what happened or not, the idea that we will agree to roll back to the the day the ESA was signed, pretend that nothing happened since and allow Gramlins to continue from there is a complete nonsense.
[/quote]
Well, quite a few thought it and were told we should just ask privately for friends being allowed to intervene. And privately we were told it would ignite another curbstomp for us and our friends.
So, while I am pretty sure that ram is simply a lunatic who brought destruction on his alliance by himself simply due to his ego, I am also pretty sure that when "others" had a chance to help us end this sooner, they did all they could to drag it out for us.
I guess if you don't care about gRAMlins, they got a pretty good deal out of it without taking either publicity or stats damage, while ensuring economic damage to us for months.

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='21 July 2010 - 06:02 AM' timestamp='1279688534' post='2382097']
And the fact that we don't rely on treaties to protect us...
[/quote]
You rely on 'secret treaties' like the one with MK? I don't think those people would throw themselves into the MDP web for you in future (and their entrance would trigger MDPs).

Grämlins always used to rely primarily on military deterrence to protect itself, once we got out of the role of inconsequential tech sellers. Remember Syzygy's nuclear brinksmanship with NPO in GW3? Remember the Archon requirements to have a full airforce and nukes? In the early days that deterrence was all within our own few nations, then after we signed the MDP with TOP and later Citadel it was on a wider scale (us and our allies). But Grämlins' protection always relied on the fact that to take us down would have hurt anybody who tried it a lot. (Incidentally, that's the same game that both TOP and MK were playing, and when they took each other down, it [i]did[/i] hurt a lot.) Citadel weren't called 'stat collectors' for nothing, we collected those stats in order to have the power to back up our words and ideals. Now, you have thrown away almost all your stats, and your military power does not scare anyone. You have thrown away almost all your treaties, and your one remaining treaty partner likely wouldn't defend you if it didn't have to at this point – and (no offence MHA, I still love you guys) wouldn't scare a serious coalition all that much anyway.

Just what [i]do[/i] you rely on for protection now? Irrelevance?

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Bilrow' date='19 July 2010 - 06:05 PM' timestamp='1279580731' post='2379456']
I will be joining the residents in Picostanislavia throwing a party when gRAMlins finally dies.
[/quote]

You'll have to dig up a former NpO emperor so he can have his dance.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='21 July 2010 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1279687897' post='2382088']
Ironic considering we have only done precisely what we said we would do....
[/quote]

Derantol said it first and got it spot on, so I'll just crib his notes.

"And what you've said you would do violates how most of us see the codex. We at IRON have found the very process you initially outlined to be unacceptable, and have told you as such constantly. I understand that only your interpretation of the codex matters, but you say in one place you won't do anything unacceptable and we see in another that you, in fact, will. No, the process isn't against the codex, but it took some careful definitions of certain words (such as surrender terms vs. peace terms) to make it so. Hence why we don't trust your word."

You've proven your willingness to split hairs and use weaslewords and play with definitions in order to "keep your word". No one trusts your intent anymore.


[quote]No, because our terms are just and honorable. You have taken issue with the process, not the terms.
[/quote]

Did you have a straight face when you said that? I almost shot Pepsi out my nose.


[quote]I don't understand your sentence. What "first time around?"
Gremlins made it quite clear from the start what we were after, that our demands were not harsh or excessive and that they fully complied with the principles set forth in our codex.
IRON knew and knows this, but they used the OWF "outrage" to play dumb and pretend they didn't.
IRON isn't stupid; they know the point of this but they can find themselves in a more powerful position by pretending to be confused.
[/quote]

First time around, as in when you wanted to play Monty Hall instead of actually talk terms.
You never made it clear what you were after, you spent 200 pages misusing the English language, talking in generalities and saying if IRON wanted to find out what the terms were they'd have to surrender first, and its a good thing you are killing off your alliance since if you weren't the next time you were at war you'd probably get asked for unconditional surrender just for the sheer hilarity value.
IRON doesn't 'find' themselves in a more powerfull position, IRON refused to play along with your shenanigans and has been winning from the start, after this long its just painfully obvious, even to you, that you can only lose this fight.

[quote]
I think you and I may be some of the very few people who have read through this entire thread.
[/quote]

I'm gonna have AS6 make a campaign medal once this is finally settled.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='21 July 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1279688534' post='2382097']
And the fact that we don't rely on treaties to protect us...
[/quote]

You do in fact, the threat of reigniting another global war is the only reason IRON's allies haven't jumped you long long ago.

[Owney OSullivan]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='20 July 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1279655371' post='2381140']
2) We would be crushed by everyone (deservedly so) if we issued harsh terms.[/quote]


You mean to tell us that you think MHA, MK and Fark would sit around and let you be crushed in the event we(IRON) surrendered to Gre and received harsh terms?

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='21 July 2010 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1279725205' post='2382573']
You'll have to dig up a former NpO emperor so he can have his dance.
[/quote]

I has a shovel.

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='21 July 2010 - 03:50 AM' timestamp='1279709407' post='2382378']
there was no special grudge against IRON, just a historical accident that put Gre on them for a 2nd time, and Gre whilst they could take on anyone at the top levels were never powerful enough to enforce this alone, even if they had a remotly justifiable reason to demand it

This is all about the ambition and ego of one idiot to dominate the SF/CnG side of the web as a leader,
He's been thwarted and rejected in that ambition more times in the past 6 months than has yet been made public and now he has nothing left but this,
[/quote]

I am not surprised to read the second paragraph but I do find it hard to believe that part of his plan didnt involved bringing down IRON to build up his credibility as leader of the block...

I can just imagine how the leaders of SF and CnG must have looked on in amusement as all of this unfolded.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='crazy canuck' date='21 July 2010 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1279735151' post='2382827']
I am not surprised to read the second paragraph but I do find it hard to believe that part of his plan didn't involved bringing down IRON to build up his credibility as leader of the block...

I can just imagine how the leaders of SF and CnG must have looked on in amusement as all of this unfolded.
[/quote]

Perhaps they are laughing at his incompetence and overinflated sense of self-worth. I know I am.

[Charles the Great]

IIRC somewhere earlier I remember reading there were a few reasons in your codex in which you wouldn't have to abide by the rule of not asking for terms you wouldn't accept something about bandwagoning or if an alliance committed a criminal act.

You have already branded IRON a criminal alliance so that means you can justify any terms you want(in your own minds anyway). In this case you, lolgre, have obviously been lying all along and only changed the terms to be more lenient now that you are getting your $@! handed to you.