The New Grämlins

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Cataduanes' date='12 July 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1278925476' post='2367938']
Oh Gre , its about time you stopped this.
[/quote]

They dipped under a million NS tonight, so seeing as they haven't showed signs of cutting it out before hitting that low there is a good chance they are going to see it all the way through.

Interesting question...what then? 18 Nations sit at 0 infra, 5k tech, and a state of war while talking to themselves in the funny farm for all eternity by their own choice? Seems like plant bob's version of purgatory, but for wackjobs.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Tromp]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='12 July 2010 - 03:25 AM' timestamp='1278897936' post='2367528']
[...]
[/quote]
Amazing how you skip the points made and repeat your own.

[quote name='Vol Navy' date='12 July 2010 - 03:49 AM' timestamp='1278899352' post='2367574']
Did you miss Sandwich's post on the previous page that said they were ready to roll TOP as soon as TOP attacked anyone?

And I am curious, who would you have had them hit? Everyone involved on the other side was tied to SF/CnG.
[/quote]
Hit ones allies, and they will come after you, I don't understand what is so hard about that concept.
They could have stayed neutral for all I care, but that's not what they were after. They saw an opportunity in the moment CnG was exposed, and SF and former FB already at war with each other. It was never about community standards, \m/ or helping NSO for that matter.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='12 July 2010 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1278917341' post='2367872']
Gre started the collapse of Citadel in the Worst War Ever. That much is pretty certain.
[/quote]
The fault lines in Cit were always there from inception,
Whilst TOP was tied to IRON and Gre to MK FOK and FARK there would always be issues

Karma showed where these were, but the cracks were papered over in ways that were unclean and certainly didn't offer a long term solution,
After Karma complacency on both sides allowed the relationship to lapse,
Gre became tied up in its own internal mess and TOP began following it's own path towards a goal of world domination

By the time it became aparent how dangerous the current world situation was and where the chips would likely fall the situation in Cit was hopeless
Certain members of TOP gov viewd cit as imore vassels than allies and made very clear that following any path other than that decided by TOP gov would be considered a betrayal,
Several suggestions were made as to temporary or pemanent fixes, but TOP could / would not break links with IRON and Gre would not ally with that side of the web,
Another suggestion of a permanent ban on DoWing OTP's was also rejected
and nobody was happy with the idea of Cit as a pre-eminent defensive block but with the understanding that in most global wars members would be on opposite sides


So we left in the hope that without us the issues in the block could be resolved, I don't know what happened after that

[RustyNail]

This isn't about Citadel, that horse is dead and buried and let it rest in peace. Anything to do with this war, this topic and this course of action has become an exercise in futility. Sad that this is still going the way that it is. Oh well, I suppose it's nice for us all to have a chat and enjoy our popcorn together right?

Edited July 12, 2010 by RustyNail

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Tromp' date='12 July 2010 - 06:07 AM' timestamp='1278929259' post='2367958']
Hit ones allies, and they will come after you, I don't understand what is so hard about that concept.
They could have stayed neutral for all I care, but that's not what they were after. They saw an opportunity in the moment CnG was exposed, and SF and former FB already at war with each other. It was never about community standards, \m/ or helping NSO for that matter.
[/quote]

C&G was never so exposed that there was any danger that IRON/TOP and its allies would realistically be able to do more than damage C&G while taking a severe beating themselves. It would have been a closer fight had NpO not done the waffle house shuffle, but so long as the SF/C&G megabloc exists, direct assault is a fool's errand. In retrospect, I think there is general consensus on the point.

Gramlins now sits at 996,597 NS and holding at 18 members for the moment. In the coming days more nations will disappear. Like captured warships from a previous war, they sit waiting for the next round of modern vessels to fire shots in mock anger at them. There is no honor in what goes on, but it is necessary.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 July 2010 - 07:24 AM' timestamp='1278937445' post='2368000']
The fault lines in Cit were always there from inception,
Whilst TOP was tied to IRON and Gre to MK FOK and FARK there would always be issues

Karma showed where these were, but the cracks were papered over in ways that were unclean and certainly didn't offer a long term solution,
After Karma complacency on both sides allowed the relationship to lapse,
Gre became tied up in its own internal mess and TOP began following it's own path towards a goal of world domination

By the time it became aparent how dangerous the current world situation was and where the chips would likely fall the situation in Cit was hopeless
Certain members of TOP gov viewd cit as imore vassels than allies and made very clear that following any path other than that decided by TOP gov would be considered a betrayal,
Several suggestions were made as to temporary or pemanent fixes, but TOP could / would not break links with IRON and Gre would not ally with that side of the web,
Another suggestion of a permanent ban on DoWing OTP's was also rejected
and nobody was happy with the idea of Cit as a pre-eminent defensive block but with the understanding that in most global wars members would be on opposite sides[/quote]
Gre were the only ones in the WWE to break from the Citadel line. The last time that happened, Karma, OG was kicked out. Gre started their downward spiral long before the Unconditional Fiasco.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='12 July 2010 - 07:54 AM' timestamp='1278939244' post='2368021']
C&G was never so exposed that there was any danger that IRON/TOP and its allies would realistically be able to do more than damage C&G while taking a severe beating themselves. It would have been a closer fight had NpO not done the waffle house shuffle, but so long as the SF/C&G megabloc exists, direct assault is a fool's errand. In retrospect, I think there is general consensus on the point.[/quote]
This.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='12 July 2010 - 12:00 AM' timestamp='1278917988' post='2367878']
The state of Cit around Oct-Nov was such that Gre was asking IRON to back-stab TOP, I can only guess what was the state at later stages post-lots of drama in between.
[/quote]


Not topical but also not true.

GRE was working to protect TOP by urging IRON not to pull them into a forced conflict with C&G over a garbage cause.

The premise was that you two wouldn't be so gung-ho to start a large-scale war if either of you showed a little doubt in the cause.

You said "We'll go if you go!"
They said "We'll go if you go!"

back and forth until it became so entangled that you nearly went to war just over the [b]perceived[/b] internal certainty of the others' dedication to the cause.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='12 July 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1278946210' post='2368095']
Gre were the only ones in the WWE to break from the Citadel line. The last time that happened, Karma, OG was kicked out. Gre started their downward spiral long before the Unconditional Fiasco.
[/quote]

Umbrella too were unconvinced of the course TOP wanted to take
And were in step with Gre's position of WTF are you guys thinking, until shortly after Gre publicly announced at which point Umb bowed to the political pressure being applied by TOP and flipped, leaving Gre high and dry

The loss of trust in Umb gov was another significant factor in Gre leaving

And before the unconditional mess, Gre was showing signs of bottoming out of its decline,
We had had a very good war, performing far better than anyone could have expected and should have been able to barter that into influence on the world stage
we had a whole bunch of fresh blood in some very eager Filipinos, getting them trained up and there nations up to spec would have provided a project to drive internal activity
things were defiantly looking up

Then Ram throws a nutty, doesn't provide sufficient warning to the gov, leaving the tail, especially those Filipinos fully exposed, gains the support of enough of the senior people to commit gre to there present course, and sits there as anyone active and competent leaves in disgust

[crazy canuck]

Syth and Matthew. You guys are wonderful at revisionist history. It find it a bit comical that you are asserting that Gramlins breaches of its treaty obligations to us and then Gramlins subsequent actions had nothing but TOP's best interests in mind. Truth is you set on a new direction. One that ultimately ruined your alliance, pulled apart the Citadel and destroyed one of the closest alliance relationships this game has ever seen.

Step up to the plate and take the hit for what you have done. Enough of this waffling around trying to come up with some justification. The proof is in the pudding. It is too easy to just blame Ram - although I have to admit he is a very easy target. Gramlins made moves that made Ram's insane leadership possible before he formally came to power.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 July 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1278949492' post='2368135']
Not topical but also not true.

GRE was working to protect TOP by urging IRON not to pull them into a forced conflict with C&G over a garbage cause.

The premise was that you two wouldn't be so gung-ho to start a large-scale war if either of you showed a little doubt in the cause.

You said "We'll go if you go!"
They said "We'll go if you go!"

back and forth until it became so entangled that you nearly went to war just over the [b]perceived[/b] internal certainty of the others' dedication to the cause.
[/quote]

Matthew, can you answer my question...what now?

All this arguing about history and the merits of what you were trying to do was fine, it lasted well over 200 pages, but its over now and you lost. Plus, its getting very annoying. You have completely lost in every way (NS, PR, politically, etc), so what do you do now? Do you have any plans at getting out? Your whole alliance is on their way to ZI and completely by your choice, when will enough be enough?

This is not Obamanations, you don't get to be degenerate losers and get rewarded, so don't expect concessions or any semblance of your demands being met. The ESA will not be amended 3 months later, because that would just be stupid and you have no leverage to get such a thing. You have 1 friend left, 1 alliance who humors you for some odd reason, and 1 eternal treaty partner who doesn't like you...that equals zero leverage. Ram may tell you otherwise, but if you believe him even after your this far down then you and your alliance mates are more gone then I thought.

So really, what do you plan on doing, just laying there and dieing?

Or, perhaps its time for the "C" word...

Edited July 12, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Alterego]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='12 July 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1278958242' post='2368284']
Or, perhaps its time for the "C" word...
[/quote]
If you believe Gramlins anyone still in the alliance was and is 100% behind this course of action. The C word would just replace one fanatic with another. Unless the c word came from outside the alliance as it stands.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='crazy canuck' date='12 July 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1278957186' post='2368268']
Syth and Matthew. You guys are wonderful at revisionist history. It find it a bit comical that you are asserting that Gramlins breaches of its treaty obligations to us and then Gramlins subsequent actions had nothing but TOP's best interests in mind. Truth is you set on a new direction. One that ultimately ruined your alliance, pulled apart the Citadel and destroyed one of the closest alliance relationships this game has ever seen.

Step up to the plate and take the hit for what you have done. Enough of this waffling around trying to come up with some justification. The proof is in the pudding. It is too easy to just blame Ram - although I have to admit he is a very easy target. Gramlins made moves that made Ram's insane leadership possible before he formally came to power.
[/quote]

Please specify which treaty obligation with TOP Gre breached whilst either Matt or I held a Gre gov position
And TBH none of TOP's actions since Karma paid any attention to Gre;s interests

I'm more than willing to take my share of responsibility in the final fall of Gre
I voted for VonDroz in the Praetor election as I wanted to encourage some fresh blood
I used the charter to ensure Ram was re-appointed Judicator when Chill quit early as I wanted to see him get the tech buy programme running again
I approved of Ram floating the idea of CnG requesting unconditional surrender and Gre supporting them should they go for it, as at the time it was an interesting idea (Gre was not technically in the war at this point due to lack of targets)
Due to RL I was unable to participate or monitor the Peace talks and had only 2 or 3 short irc conversations with Ram to update me on their progress, I'll be diplomatic and say I left those conversations with a false impression of the situation

Those are the extent of my failings, and my responsibility

[Der Kommissar]

[color="#FF0000"]Stay on topic.[/color]

[shahenshah]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 July 2010 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1278954896' post='2368226']
We had had a very good war, performing far better than anyone could have expected and should have been able to barter that into influence on the world stage
[/quote]
Victory there and then would'nt really bring you to 'influence' world stage. Gre derived influence from Cit, Cit derived influence from elite nations. After the war and downfall of Cit, you'd be firmly placed in on CnG's "Sphere of influence", not "Gre's influence on the world stage". Now tho, you're just there, should you choose to live, you'll be merely a 'protectorate'. Like it or not, You derived more influence through TOP then TOP did from you.

[quote]There is no honor in what goes on, but it is necessary.[/quote]
We seek none nor we seek Gre's destruction. This can be end without attempts to humiliate, this can end without attempts to re-write history, this can end in both sides simply walking away.

[Baldr]

[img]http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af174/Baldr_bucket/WhitePiece.jpg[/img]

Most alliances celebrate breaking the 1M NS barrier, so I thought Gramlins deserved some cake.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='12 July 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1278968670' post='2368484']
This can be end without attempts to humiliate, this can end without attempts to re-write history, this can end in both sides simply walking away.
[/quote]

Well said. I agree completely.

[mrcalkin]

I just want to say, to the lot of you talking about the Citadel collapsing and your feelings on it: don't. You seriously are rewriting history left and right and as someone who was there for a long time, all of you are either leaving out details or generalizing things beyond the point of recognition.

edit: nor do I really see how it has anything to do with the surrender terms to begin with

Edited July 12, 2010 by mrcalkin

[Williambonney]

GRE infra: 104,506
GRE tech: 97,539

At this rate they'll have more tech than infra in a week or so

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='William Bonney' date='12 July 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1278983480' post='2368758']
GRE infra: 104,506
GRE tech: 97,539

At this rate they'll have more tech than infra in a week or so
[/quote]

Sooner probably. Penile Island apparently craves oblivion and I am happy to oblige him.

The rest high NS Gramlins seem receptive to peace and I hope they are able to find a compromise with IRON before Ram is up for re-election in August.

I requested to engage Matthew_PK before I left IRON and it was not approved. In my opinion he is the last aggressive Gramlin with high NS. Matthew, you owe IRON one this time.

In fact, IRON milcom was against me going aggressive over the last week and ordered me to peace out. Omas, I peaced out with you because you have a good attitude and it was before I was ordered to. I'd like to buy you 100 tech when this war is over to compensate for the 2 GA's.

Keep telling your people that all of IRON believes in random acts of violence, Ram.

Even the most despicable of enemies are capable of fairness.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=88946

Edited July 13, 2010 by JimKongIl

[Crymson]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 July 2010 - 09:45 AM' timestamp='1278949492' post='2368135']
Not topical but also not true.

GRE was working to protect TOP by urging IRON not to pull them into a forced conflict with C&G over a garbage cause.
[/quote]

Do you actually expect anyone to believe this?

Also, are you vision-capable enough to realize that Ram was the #1 reason the Citadel went under? With him effectively at the helm of the Gramlins, none of us could rely on you, trust you, share any information with you, or even have civil dialogue with you. The governments of Argent, Umbrella and TOP simply stopped sharing opsec-level information with you guys, because we knew that Ramirus would leak it whenever it suited his purposes. He created an atmosphere of distrust and tension in the Citadel to the point that the bloc was utterly dysfunctional. In the past the bloc had always seen a ton of arguing, but we knew that we would [b]always[/b] have each other's backs. Ram changed that. And because of him, the Citadel was already ruined long before the Gramlins left. Oddly enough, you guys constantly denied that he did anything wrong and repeatedly refused to admit that he was having any bad effects on relations. It was reminiscent of a state of denial.

While you should feel free to argue this, bear in mind that it would be rather silly to do so, as the above is how the rest of us in the bloc felt.

FYI, the vote to end the Citadel went up before TOP entered the war.

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='12 July 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1278917341' post='2367872']
Gre started the collapse of Citadel in the Worst War Ever. That much is pretty certain.
[/quote]

It was well before that.

[quote]
Karma showed where these were, but the cracks were papered over in ways that were unclean and certainly didn't offer a long term solution,
After Karma complacency on both sides allowed the relationship to lapse,
Gre became tied up in its own internal mess and TOP began following it's own path towards a goal of world domination

By the time it became aparent how dangerous the current world situation was and where the chips would likely fall the situation in Cit was hopeless
Certain members of TOP gov viewd cit as imore vassels than allies and made very clear that following any path other than that decided by TOP gov would be considered a betrayal,
Several suggestions were made as to temporary or pemanent fixes, but TOP could / would not break links with IRON and Gre would not ally with that side of the web,
Another suggestion of a permanent ban on DoWing OTP's was also rejected
and nobody was happy with the idea of Cit as a pre-eminent defensive block but with the understanding that in most global wars members would be on opposite sides
[/quote]

ROFL. Did you get this propaganda straight from the mouth of Ramirus? I'm almost sure you did. It's not surprising, given that such seems to be a trend for you.

FACT: We were angry that you attacked IRON during the Karma War; your senior members and government knew it, they knew they'd committed an unambiguous affront to us, and they were extremely apologetic. Things calmed down fairly quickly, and relations were fine until Ramirus came to power.
FACT: Your claim about TOP wanting "world domination" makes you sound pretty funny. I'm fairly certain it's what Ramirus taught you to think.
FACT: Your claim that we saw the Citadel as "vassals" is also almost certainly Ramirus-speak. Oh, excuse me; I'm absolutely certain it is. It's what he constantly said in his diatribes against TOP.
FACT: Ramirus, not the treaty web, was the #1 reason the Citadel declined and was ABSOLUTELY the #1 reason that relations between the Gramlins and TOP declined.

You're hopeless, Synth. Learn to have some self-respect and to think for yourself, man. Sheesh.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Crymson

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='mrcalkin' date='12 July 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1278978381' post='2368677']
I just want to say, to the lot of you talking about the Citadel collapsing and your feelings on it: don't. You seriously are rewriting history left and right and as someone who was there for a long time, all of you are either leaving out details or generalizing things beyond the point of recognition.

edit: nor do I really see how it has anything to do with the surrender terms to begin with
[/quote]


I agree - even though some of your criticism may have been directed at me.

The only reason I entered the fray on that point is that Matthew seemed to be trying to tie his current predicament into some "selfless act" Gre commited to try to "save" TOP in what has now become the mists of time. That is why I encouraged him to just step up to the plate and take the hit. No amout of revisionism can save him and Gre now. The only honourable thing left to that alliance is to acknowledge they made a monumental miscalculation and stop trying to brazen their way through it.

[janax]

Most all of you are wrong, and those of us who know better are now dumber for having read the completely-unrelated-to-Gre-vs-IRON BS spewed over the last few pages.

This won't end until Ram's last remaining chit, a few high tech/NS nations are rubble. That's all they have. Take it away and end this.

[Feanor Noldorin]

Leave Synth and Matthew alone with their delusions.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Crymson' date='13 July 2010 - 03:41 AM' timestamp='1278988868' post='2368884']

Also, are you vision-capable enough to realize that Ram was the #1 reason the Citadel went under?
[/quote]

[quote]ROFL. Did you get this propaganda straight from the mouth of [u][b]Crymson?[/b][/u][/quote]

Changed and highlighted the relevant part, someone a few post back talked about "rewriting history", you TOP boys are pretty good at that arent you? There are still plenty of people who want their pound of flesh Crymson so keep running your mouth, please. Its nice to see the TOP propoganda machine come to life, to bad its near the end of this folly, how couragous.

Hopefully in the coming months instead of going on and on, Iron/Dawn will send Ramirus and the psuedo intellectuals at GRE the very clear message that might does make right.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Thorgrum

[Alterego]

Where have I seen this before. Fanitical leader and loyal propaganda servant happily let their people be destroyed for failing him before taking the cowards way out without putting up a fight tmemselves. They are war criminals against their own people for denying them peace even if they (their people)have been brainwashed.

[i]How fortunate for leaders that men do not think[/i]

Edited July 13, 2010 by Alterego