This has gone on long enough

[Earogema]

EDIT: Slightly OOC stuff in this IC thread (forgot about that )

Wait, this thread is still going? What's that, it's about \m/ now?

When I said "I've gotten over it" back in the day, I know I didn't really mean it. I meant "Yeah, I guess we're gone, but if those old history topics on the OWF come up, then they'll feel my wrath!" I had thought that Polar would have just left the thread where it was, but they haven't seemed to have either. I really don't care either way. Also, the whole "Hurr, cry more" thing is just stupid, as is the "You're so unjust!1!@"

Even if somehow, someway, \m/ survived, it would have fallen dramatically. Even if \m/ won I would contend this. (Just look at GGA )

The reason for this was the HUGE morale loss. I don't see why the Polar members don't understand this. We had 2 of our leaders (of a goddamn tri, both having been in power for quite a while) banned, because of the same thread (a fransjosef thread too iirc).

Our greatest ally was accused of an OOC attack. Said claim was pretty solid.

Our Field Marshall (promoted from General, Virillus was given this position for life, during the war iirc) calls for an illegal cease-fire (which much of our membership went through with anyway).

Said Field Marshall quits \m/ in the middle of his cease-fire (supported now by the tri, at the very least, Chairman Hal).

Joins the alliance that betrays \m/. (Atlantis, our former protectorate).

Many more high profile members, like HRT leave, citing the OOC attacks.

We're getting pounded like crazy, without hitting back (300 members around, with 1100 wars).

Lots of accusations by the membership of mod bias. Suspect the ~ side of having said bias. (That's really what was on the membership's mind at the time).

\m/ caves.

\m/ had it REALLY bad. If the various OOC things didn't happen, then fine, I'll give it to you, \m/ should/could have survived. To ignore that however is to ignore a really big part of what caused the disbanding. I still say they (WC, Jason8, Chairman Hal-even if everybody hates him now) made the right call.

But I've said this all before. If you won't believe it, then fine. \m/ is dead, and I guess that's part of my history, but I really don't care. I had more fun working along side the very person that killed it, and that's okay with me.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Earogema

[Kim Jaym Il]

Fact: NpO wasn't going to let \m/ surrender.

Those are some mighty fine facts you've got there sir.

[hizzy]

The title of this thread is almost a !@#$@#$ prophecy.

It's almost painful to watch. (lol jk It's hilarious)

[Earogema]

The title of this thread is almost a !@#$@#$ prophecy.

It's almost painful to watch. (lol jk It's hilarious)

9/19/07 NEVER FORGET!

[Caliph]

Polar was at war with at least 12 alliances, most of which were either sanctioned at the time, or sanctioned soon after. Also, Polar retained most of its membership after the war. How many \m/embers were still in \m/ after UJW?

Also, stop bringing up the slots thing. Of course \m/ had less slots. They had less members.

YOu do realize \m/ fought 3 sanctioned alliances, 1 that had more members than we did and the other 2 hit us fairly hard, and that we did get hit with a force that was about 3 times as strong as we were, with these alliances solely attacking us as we lacked the nations in our coalitin to handle all of the alliances warring just us.

[Nintenderek]

YOu do realize \m/ fought 3 sanctioned alliances, 1 that had more members than we did and the other 2 hit us fairly hard, and that we did get hit with a force that was about 3 times as strong as we were, with these alliances solely attacking us as we lacked the nations in our coalitin to handle all of the alliances warring just us.

You read the rest of my post, right? The way the game has changed, the NS lost is almost incomparable. The only thing that's really truely comparable is the fact Polar is still around today, and \m/ folded.

[Caliph]

You read the rest of my post, right? The way the game has changed, the NS lost is almost incomparable. The only thing that's really truely comparable is the fact Polar is still around today, and \m/ folded.

I'm saying comparable NS, \m/ got jumped by more than 3 times our strength, which is about what you had said.

Seriously, read Mega's post about this. \m/ morale was low because of Black Friday and having the non banned gov members leave us for NATO, and then having our allies NATO, MCXA, and half the WUT betray us what we considered a valid war.

having Virillus join Atlantis, whom we viewed as betrayed us, and outright call for our leaving the war shot our morale. having our 2 best leaders who had been our leaders for a long time being forced out of existence hurt us bad.

Seriously, stop trying to claim that the !@#$ \m/ went through prior to the UjW had nothing to do with our performance that war. I wasn't kidding when I said we were at our lowest point, and instead of offering mercy Sponge saw fit to ensure we would never be a threat to him again. He was right when he said he didn't force us to disband, but when ALL our leadership left us many also left, and the will to continue on when the entire world hated us for !@#$ we didn't do, the will to continue was gone.

The situation was very different for Polar, as Polar's enemies had no intention of seeking disbandment or terms to instsitute perma war.

[D34th]

Because Sponge immediately lost all influence in NpO upon stepping down! I'm not an idiot, Nintenderek. Sponge could still pull strings.

In the end, though, \m/ members went on to found and join alliances that ultimately ran Sponge out of power and rolled Polar. And I think in the end, both sides ended up bawwwing quite a bit (and yes, Polar bawwwwed a lot given what they had done to others. More than NPO is now.) \m/ got their several pounds of NpO flesh and tears, and for all the talk of \m/ doing poorly in the war, in the end Polar hit peace mode rather than fight. So you can drop your "lol\m/" antics

Using your logic NAAC won the war against Polaris because Grub is now NpO's emperor?

[Earogema]

Using your logic NAAC won the war against Polaris because Grub is now NpO's emperor?

Sounds good to me!

And people wonder why NpO and NPO split up.

[Doitzel]

Sponges temrs for \m/ was eternal tech farm and permanent viceroyship.

I just want to point out that NPO tried to put a puppet Emperor on the Polar throne, installed a representative in Polar government, and had every intention (even if they failed miserably) to "reclaim the Polar Order", as they put it. Polar was ACTUALLY faced with an enemy that wanted to make them a slave state, as Hal would put it; \m/ was faced with sponge who had a unique way of telling you that you weren't getting terms yet that was misconstrued -- probably due to his uh, intensity.

And yes, Polaris folded under external pressure. They folded when ES was removed from his position in an attempt to prevent war. I really don't get why you're blatantly ignoring history, here, Doch. Yes, \m/ folded. Yes, NpO folded. Stop letting your biases cloud your judgment - it's really straight forward facts (gov being removed to avoid war etc.)

Okay this is some of the dumbest !@#$ I've heard in a while. By that logic \m/ folded when they called in their allies to help to avoid getting completely rolled.

The reason Sponge was removed was internal pressure more than external. Do you have any goddamn idea how many people were threatening to leave over his antics? He screwed up big time when he tried to go toe-to-toe with NPO at the low-point of Polar political power. There were a number of other factors but the membership wanted him removed so he was removed. That bloody simple. Maybe you guys should've tried it with your leaders if you so vehemently disagreed with their decision to disband!

Sounds good to me!

And people wonder why NpO and NPO split up.

See my sig. Moo-Cows was a radical abolitionist.

[Starfox101]

This was a great idea. Even I would have thought better than to try to pull this one.

[mythicknight]

You might just be the thickest poster around.

Ahem. He is not.

Anyway, all this arguing is useless. Everyone has their own perspective on things back then and won't agree on anything 100%.

Which brings me too...

Sup Caffine?

[Lord Razzia]

"This has gone on long enough"

Nah, here comes the 2nd wave. You ready?

I was shocked when I saw the war screens. Among all wars, the War of the Coalition had to have been the most one-sided BS war I had ever seen. And that's saying a lot seeing as how I fought against UJP. I ended up leaving SOUL before they became SOLID, but when I saw both MCXA and Echelon jump ship to 1V and all those war screens, I !@#$ a brick. On the one hand, I was glad that I dodged a bullet, but at the same time, it was painful to watch my friends/allies at heart get betrayed and rolled like that. 139 mil NS vs 31 mil NS? My god...

The best part was that both MCXA and Echelon tried to do it AGAIN, but that's another story. >_>

[Bob Janova]

Cit- the only alliance in Cit that fought Polaris was Umbrella.

...

There really isn't an answer to that apart from to quote it so people can see the absurdity. Being in Continuum didn't cancel our Citadel membership.

Ok, \m/ fought so well, but I mean so well, that they did not survive the war.

Quoting one of many similar posts which don't actually contain a point. 'Hurf durf disbandment' is a dumb argument when the main alliances fighting Polaris never had any intention of pushing for disbandment. The fact that you keep resorting to that is a pretty clear indication that you don't actually have an argument to make.

[Näktergal]

The situation was very different for Polar, as Polar's enemies had no intention of seeking disbandment or terms to instsitute perma war.

Some of Polar's enemies absolutely had that intention. They were just in the minority, and lacked the capacity to finish the job themselves if their more moderate allies pulled out.

Much like GWI, when there were certainly elements within the CoaLUEtion that wanted the Orders completely crushed and disbanded, but who were forced to settle for peace because their allies thought the Orders had been punished enough and were planning to pull out, leaving the more bloodthirsty alliances in a very difficult position if they didn't do the same.

For that matter, the same could be said of the Karma War - there were absolutely alliances that wanted to see the NPO completely broken and disbanded, but lacked the firepower to get the job done once the more moderate alliances started saying the NPO had been punished enough and should be offered terms.

Realistically speaking, \m/ almost certainly could have survived if they'd managed to hold on until public opinion shifted, but their internal problems made it impossible. Simple as that.

You want to talk to alliances that basically faced the full might of most of the known world and still didn't buckle under pressure to fold, go talk to someone in FAN.

...

There really isn't an answer to that apart from to quote it so people can see the absurdity. Being in Continuum didn't cancel our Citadel membership.

Not enough was done at the time to really emphasize the Citadel stance that "We're not part of the Coalition, we're doing this for personal reasons of our own", so it's essentially been lost to history and people blur the political lines. The fact that most of the alliances in Citadel were using the excuse to settle a personal grudge with Sponge and the NpO rather than acting in accord with the Continuum objectives/intentions is something most people outside of Citadel really aren't aware of.

If anything, the fact that TOP had a burning hatred of Sponge and was actively trying to fan the flames against the NpO in Citadel (and that both Umbrella and the Grämlins shared that emotion to a degree) argues against the idea that the Citadel front was simply motivated by following along with Continuum. Honestly, I'd be more inclined to believe that TOP talked the NPO into making a move rather than the reverse.

[Bob Janova]

Honestly, I'd be more inclined to believe that TOP talked the NPO into making a move rather than the reverse.

NPO actively obstructed any sort of move against NpO for a long time (over a week for sure), and eventually gave in under great pressure from most of Continuum. Anyone who tries to blame that one on the NPO is misinformed or twisting the truth.

[Haflinger]

Not enough was done at the time to really emphasize the Citadel stance that "We're not part of the Coalition, we're doing this for personal reasons of our own", so it's essentially been lost to history and people blur the political lines.

Citadel was indeed part of the Coalition. Crymson posted the Coalition statement on nuclear strikes, and OG, Grämlins, TOP, and Umbrella signed it.

[Dochartaigh]

...

There really isn't an answer to that apart from to quote it so people can see the absurdity. Being in Continuum didn't cancel our Citadel membership.

Quoting one of many similar posts which don't actually contain a point. 'Hurf durf disbandment' is a dumb argument when the main alliances fighting Polaris never had any intention of pushing for disbandment. The fact that you keep resorting to that is a pretty clear indication that you don't actually have an argument to make.

never said it did but considering how heavy Q weighed in, does not make your Cit membership mean as much. it was a Q led war.

and if you really want to push that our side has no argument, Polaris never wanted \m/ to disband. hell, even according to \m/ we technically wanted to make them our eternal tech farm or a slave state. thus, where did Polaris ever push \m/ to disband?

we didn't. they themselves did that all for us. anyways, i agree that both sides see things differently. thus, i am done.

i mean, lets take the BLEU vs NADC war... by ya'lls assumption (the ones stating that Cit/or SF led the coalition against Polaris) then 1V was clearly involved in that war since Polaris was part of 1V. 1V should totally have taken part of the blame for that war since Polaris being part of BLEU totally does not cancel their membership into 1V.....

just because Umbrella fought does not mean that Cit fought. ya'lls (TOP's/Gre) membership in Q- which iirc there are quotes somewhere of Q being made as an anti-Polar organization which is why it housed many Polar enemies at the time (TOP/Gre/Valhalla/MHA(?) and others as i never remember other than MCXA, IRON, TPF, Sparta who else was part of Q.) and Polaris was not even told bout it.

[Rush Sykes]

NPO actively obstructed any sort of move against NpO for a long time (over a week for sure), and eventually gave in under great pressure from most of Continuum. Anyone who tries to blame that one on the NPO is misinformed or twisting the truth.

I think that, by and large, most of the world understands this. Personally, In my case, I view Pacificas guilt in what happened to Polar, in the context of their continued professed love and brotherhood all the way through the leadup to the war. Even on the cancellation of the OoO, they continued to use terms like brothers and sisters. I do not know about the rest of the planet, but I wouldnt stand by and let my brother get his $@! beat and not knock a few heads of those beating him. So many Pacificans equated the situation to "sometimes brothers fight, and one has to beat the other one up." That would be fine had Pacifica dealt out the beating. Anyone who would stand idly by and watch even their best friend beat up their brother or sister, is not deserving of the title of brother or sister. Maybe those of us in CnG are just different. No amount of pressure from any of our allies would cause us to abandon one another.

[Dochartaigh]

I think that, by and large, most of the world understands this. Personally, In my case, I view Pacificas guilt in what happened to Polar, in the context of their continued professed love and brotherhood all the way through the leadup to the war. Even on the cancellation of the OoO, they continued to use terms like brothers and sisters. I do not know about the rest of the planet, but I wouldnt stand by and let my brother get his $@! beat and not knock a few heads of those beating him. So many Pacificans equated the situation to "sometimes brothers fight, and one has to beat the other one up." That would be fine had Pacifica dealt out the beating. Anyone who would stand idly by and watch even their best friend beat up their brother or sister, is not deserving of the title of brother or sister. Maybe those of us in CnG are just different. No amount of pressure from any of our allies would cause us to abandon one another.

i agree with this. and Bob- seriously, if it was just over a week that Pacifica stood in ya'lls way and you consider that to be a considerable amount of time....... that is not standing in your way, that is simply trying to make themselves look good while knowing the whole time that they were gonna let you roll Polaris.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Congratulations Caffine, you created a place for everyone to claw at semi healed wounds. Nothing like causing gangrene, eh?

[Darth Revan]

Things this thread is not about

1) The Unjust war

2) \m/

3) anything else that isn't in direct relation to the OP ( in other words things that are not related to Echelon's relationship with Polar or the consequences of the way their relationship ended)

Cut it out.

[AirMe]

Sniped by a mod.

Edited December 18, 2009 by AirMe

[shahenshah]

*edit - just read Mod warning,

Nvm.

Anyway, This thread has done more damage than good.

Edited December 18, 2009 by shahenshah

[Mussolandia]

ignore

Edited December 18, 2009 by Mussolandia