Equilibrium Coalition & Umbrella Coalition Agree on Peace

[IYIyTh]

Congrats to Equilibrium and ... Umbrella coalition on a lasting peace that will totally be forever.

 

 

etc

 

 

(yep)

Edited April 7, 2013 by IYIyTh

[enderland]

More importantly, the GR level be back to normal 20 days from now :)

[Ardus]

If I understand your position correctly, you say "If SF and XX had split, VE could have diverted the target from SF to MJ. XX then would have been safe".

That's far more broad than what I assert. I only claim that CN history would have played out differently and that I do not believe MK would have been able to reassert its control over world affairs, control it very nearly lost as a result of DH/NPO.

Now again let me stress how theoretical and absolutely pointless this is at this point, but a VE lead coalition would not have been any more safe for an XX without SF than a MK lead world with an XX tied to SF. XX still had many ties to MJ, three off the top of my head. If you remember most people considered XX to be an anti-PB bloc. It was no secret they arrived late and without enthusiasm to the previous war, and the government of Fark had made several anti-PB statements in private. It would take no Bob historian to realize the many stumbling blocs between Fark-GOONS and Fark-VE relations. Hell, even Sardonic himself gave veiled references to the XX-PB situations at the time. Schatt even made a thread about it. So even if XX had abandoned SF they still would not have been safe.

Whether XX would have been "safe?" Well there's really no telling, but I don't think the immediate war that smashed them would have occurred. There really isn't a way to accurately guess what might have happened after a PB-MJ war that ultimately didn't occur. But you have to remember that XX, outside of maybe FARK-PB relations, didn't have much hostility directed toward it outside of MK. Umbrella had MHA and Sparta. FOK had R&R. ODN had Sparta. If XX was commonly distrusted at that time, 1337 and I wouldn't have had to put on that song and dance of a campaign to get people to drop them.

So I have no reason to doubt what you said in your egotistical, but very well informed post.

I am Admin's gift to CN.

However, it does nothing to take away from what I claimed. Unless we were originally discussing two completely different problems (though I wouldn't know how else to interpret your post), I'm going to assume your post was some red herring in order to deflect my comment.

My first post in response to the historical discussion wasn't in response to you at all, Omni. KL2 stated a historical fact, that R&R had been under pressure to pick a bloc. I confirmed from a different perspective and added my $0.02 as to what the impact of R&R picking one bloc over the other might have been. I'm not even sure which comment you suppose I was trying to deflect. The one about the Fark-NoR thread? It seems accurate enough. That thread was a boon and helped fast-track MK-NoR relations and whitewash the previous "nominal" comments to FOK.

Since we are EXTREMELY off topic though, I'm not sure we will be able to continue our conversation for long. But if you do still have a different opinion than I do my inbox is always open (and I have no problem with a group message if my friend Rushsykes would like to participate in order to give you rhetorical pats on the back). Rush and I may even enjoy speaking about that time, because it was around this time that our long standing IC friendship faltered. I will agree on one thing though. Yes you did get extremely lucky.

Congrats on peace everyone.

No need to be so hostile, Omni.

[Omniscient1]

No need to be so hostile, Omni.

Is that not what these forums are for? I guess I stumbled into the wrong place. :P

Anyway, I think your last post was spot on. Kudos. Edited April 7, 2013 by Omniscient1

[Il Impero Romano]

For much of the leadup to Grudge, VE and MK were battling to convince PB of who was a bigger threat to the general sphere of influence: SF/XX, who'd acted recklessly, farmed up resentment even beyond DH, and was flirting with Polaris; or DR/MJ, who had an uncomfortable portion of the old Hegemony and was considered generally pretty competent. One of my consistent arguments was that, by virtue of SF being tightly knit sortof-MADP bloc, and R&R's presence in XX, there was no circumstance where any part of those two blocs would abandon any other part. Further, if SF joined with Polaris' little sphere, it would create one large axis that C&G/DH/PB would be unable to take on by itself in the event of a split, which was inevitable in the wake of a PB-MJ war.

The argument had weaknesses. We knew that SF/XX wasn't entirely unified and Impero frequently argued, with some passion, that SF/XX wasn't some monolithic body and in any event lacked sufficient cohesion to project itself. Frankly he was right, but the foretold breakup of SF/XX never happened and I responded that SF/XX didn't need to project--we only needed some sideshow, like the Weeaboo War, to go hot so as to force a split, as it very nearly did. There was also the problem that Polaris and SF/XX, despite making goo-goo eyes at each other, weren't formally linking together. TOP still wanted revenge and was losing patience. There was a real chance that TOP would attack Polaris before any union, destroy its sphere of influence, and eliminate the looming threat of an SF/XX/NpO axis without actually damaging SF/XX at all.

But everything went my way damn near by chance. R&R stayed in both blocs so the drumbeat kept on and treaties began to fall by the wayside. Roq, who had been obstinate about retaining Sparta and MHA, retired and was replaced by Johnny Apocalypse, who was slightly more open to the idea. At the same time, Myth was trash talking Umbrella on CNtel. Poof went the Umb-MHA treaty. And at the last possible moment, RIA shacked up with Polaris. TOP lunged and the whole of SF/XX/NpO was crushed, mostly by PF/DR/MJ.

If any one of those things didn't occur, that war would have at the least played out differently. If none of them occurred, I don't think Grudge would have happened at all--I think Impero's advocacy would have won out in PB and we'd have gotten a totally different war. I mean, hell, FOK came within a hair's breadth of declaring war on Dark Templar in spite of everything going my way.

Ultimately all of this is now mostly a historical curiosity, because the era it helped define is substantially over.

That about sums it up for anyone who was wondering. I'm supprised it has taken this long for the dirty laundry from that period of time to end up on this forum, though the thread is a pretty fitting venue.

One thing though my friend, while much of why you won out can be attributed to chance, there is always the fact that you could have seen the long view and never taken advantage of my couple months absence to push that agenda in the first place, and this war and this thread would have never existed. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

How disappointing. Until next time, I suppose 

[Brehon]

"Umbrella Coalition" was requested by your side as I refused to do "Competence" & was told "DH Coalition" was inaccurate.

[WorldConqueror]

And of course we all must bow to the Emperor Brehon's wishes.

[Feanor Noldorin]

Rather petty of you to refuse to use our coalition's correct name.

[Biff Webster]

It can't have been that big of a deal.

[hormones74]

"Umbrella Coalition" was requested by your side as I refused to do "Competence" & was told "DH Coalition" was inaccurate.

Competence is the ultimate truth, though personally I prefer "QUALITY".

[Schattenmann]

And of course we all must bow to the Emperor Brehon's wishes.

Duh.

[Kim Jaym Il]

honestly the fact that people on the other side were using the competence label at all was hilarious enough on its own

[WorldConqueror]

Duh.

Doitzel would be horrified to see you this way!

[Ardus]

That about sums it up for anyone who was wondering. I'm supprised it has taken this long for the dirty laundry from that period of time to end up on this forum, though the thread is a pretty fitting venue.

One thing though my friend, while much of why you won out can be attributed to chance, there is always the fact that you could have seen the long view and never taken advantage of my couple months absence to push that agenda in the first place, and this war and this thread would have never existed. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I'm not too bothered that this war existed. It was always going to exist eventually, although I'll never forget all the wasted hours being civil to IRON. The question was whether we'd be able to build up enough power distinct from SF/XX/NpO and DR/NPO to win it. Thanks to that intervening Dave War, and its DH/NPO-like impact on relations within C&G/Doom/Dino, we couldn't. I also never expected TOP's PF allies to abandon it to the last for a shot at MK. But oh well--win some, lose some.

Also, your absence wasn't really a factor in deciding to pursue SF/XX; I didn't realize you weren't around until after I'd already began talking to Umbrella and GOONS about it, iirc. The Weeaboo War was the single biggest thing; up until that point I still occasionally talked to Xiphosis and retained the option of ditching the whole concept. Edited April 9, 2013 by Ardus

[Omniscient1]

I also never expected TOP's PF allies to abandon it to the last for a shot at MK.

That's quite a twisted version of events.

[Ardus]

That's quite a twisted version of events.

But for TOP's treaties with DoomHouse, the still-active portions of PF would still be allied to TOP. You, Argent, cut ties with Paradoxia and joined a bloc whose overwhelming FA objective at the time was the destruction of TOP's DH allies and, indeed, TOP itself.

[Omniscient1]

But for TOP's treaties with DoomHouse, the still-active portions of PF would still be allied to TOP. You, Argent, cut ties with Paradoxia and joined a bloc whose overwhelming FA objective at the time was the destruction of TOP's DH allies and, indeed, TOP itself.

Again wrong. It is easily verifiable at the direction most non-TOP ex-PFers wished to go in. They are now mostly allied to us and AI. TOP chose to stand with you over their older allies, us and IRON, that is fine. Our course was ever steady though. Again, there is easily varifiable proof with Sengoku and IRON. Feel free to shout your delusions at the top of your lungs though. I won't dig into your personal life just because of your ridiculously incorrect political opinions.

These arguments have already been hashed and re-hashed by those who personally took part in those conversations. Edited April 9, 2013 by Omniscient1

[Ogaden]

But for TOP's treaties with DoomHouse, the still-active portions of PF would still be allied to TOP. You, Argent, cut ties with Paradoxia and joined a bloc whose overwhelming FA objective at the time was the destruction of TOP's DH allies and, indeed, TOP itself.

Noone cared about TOP in the Equilibrium coalition.  If TOP had stayed neutral noone would have been disappointed.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Ogaden

[IYIyTh]

That's quite a twisted version of events.

 

Just his rose colored glasses.

[trimm]

But for TOP's treaties with DoomHouse, the still-active portions of PF would still be allied to TOP. You, Argent, cut ties with Paradoxia and joined a bloc whose overwhelming FA objective at the time was the destruction of TOP's DH allies and, indeed, TOP itself.

 

TOP did plenty to damage its ties to its former allies regardless of their ties to DH.  Of course, you not being there and all, feel free to continue to discuss it.

[ChairmanHal]

Rather petty of you to refuse to use our coalition's correct name

 

I have to admit, it was a very competent surrender.

[Buds The Man]

But for TOP's treaties with DoomHouse, the still-active portions of PF would still be allied to TOP. You, Argent, cut ties with Paradoxia and joined a bloc whose overwhelming FA objective at the time was the destruction of TOP's DH allies and, indeed, TOP itself.

 

TOP wasnt on the menu anymore than Umbrella was IMO.  Ella just happened to be the powder keg that went BOOM.  There was no love lost between TOP and many on the other side but to my limeted knowledge TOP really wasnt all that important to the end goal.(If they remained out it would be a bonus if they came in top tiers would be wrecked)  Reality is DH needed to be punched in the mouth and to that end it was a succesfull war.  It was costly to do so and how it plays out from here will tell if it was worth it or not.  I see treaties being dropped and people that usually would scoff at things hailing them.  I see a shifting in sides comming in multiple places which for better or worse is needed.  MK had become what it championed against in Karma.  While im sure you are all ready to point out MK didnt start certain things im pretty sure their hands are far from clean. 

[Hereno]

Rather petty of you to refuse to use our coalition's correct name.

 

I was rather amazed that they were ever using "competence" to describe you all to begin with. You know, from a having self-respect standpoint.

[trimm]

They had more of a right to the term competence than most of the people that were fighting them, truth be told.