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Equilibrium Coalition & Umbrella Coalition Agree on Peace


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NPL, RIA and R&R all had their own ties to XX that predate most of the later political shenanigans.  The RIA/Sparta treaty was inked before the Karma war, and Fark is RIA's oldest ally.

 

 

MHA signed their MDoAP with Umbrella in 2010 and Sparta's Umbrella treaty was signed in 2008.

 

What's your point?

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MHA signed their MDoAP with Umbrella in 2010 and Sparta's Umbrella treaty was signed in 2008.

 

What's your point?

That is the point, the treaties that established XX's ties to Umbrella and SF both predate the DH/SF hostilities, and for that matter, predate XX.  Relics of an earlier era.

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That is the point, the treaties that established XX's ties to Umbrella and SF both predate the DH/SF hostilities, and for that matter, predate XX.  Relics of an earlier era.

 

I gotcha, but I don't think that's true. I think everyone cared about those treaties and certainly didn't view them as relics at the time (notable exception possibly being Sparta-RIA or perhaps the new regime of Umbrella vs. the other two.) The point I intended to make is that political expedience and a mutual fate had everything to do with an otherwise unlikely pairing between the two bloc's, and someone certainly never bought me a ring if we were married -- at least for as long as I was involved.

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NPL, RIA and R&R all had their own ties to XX that predate most of the later political shenanigans.  The RIA/Sparta treaty was inked before the Karma war, and Fark is RIA's oldest ally.

It is true that Sparta was very close to RIA. However, Sparta was very close to ODN as well. (and RnR with internoptional)

 

Myth I don't see how you could expect anyone to buy that XX and SF weren't going to be working together when R&R is in both blocs.

 

Myth is right, there was an extensive pressure on RnR to pick a bloc.

 

 

The ironic thing is that our feud with God, which made Xiph insult  Luka (King at the time) and me (MoFA at the time), was because we chose the strategy to attack Aztec, following Umbrella request, instead of attacking GATO per God request. (in fact Gato and Sparta were considering a treaty pre-war)

So, the same group that we supported, decided that we were to big too exist and used as an excuse the hatred towards God/CSN (which at that time were hostile towards us) to roll XX.

 

I would like to repeat (thanks Myth for confirming this). It was everything about XX and not SF as most of people were made believe.

 

Added: Athens at time also asked us to not attack GATO.  So next war, Umbrella, Athens (as tLR),  ODN, internoptional  and Gato attacked XX.

Curiously FOK (merged to form Non Grata) did the honest thing and fighted for both sides, defending both their allies.

Edited by King Louis the II
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I gotcha, but I don't think that's true. I think everyone cared about those treaties and certainly didn't view them as relics at the time (notable exception possibly being Sparta-RIA

 

On that one you are not right my friend. Sparta-Ria treaty was very solid at time. In fact Sparta was in debt with RIA. The things went sour wars after that, when RIA treatied Polar (nothing against polar), which with thought was a bad political move, nothing to gain (for RIA and Polar) and a lot to loose (for all RIA allies). This of course is disputable, and I am not saying RIA was wrong.

 

In fact even after the cancelation RIA was respected by Sparta. I would think they still are.

Edited by King Louis the II
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Myth is right, there was an extensive pressure on RnR to pick a bloc.

That's all well and good, but they didn't. They kept a foot in both camps, and XX did nothing to resolve that. Besides which, if you really wanted to avoid fighting on SF's behalf, you never would have included R&R in XX in the first place. The only way that you could have prevented being joined at the hip with SF in wartime under those circumstances would be if SF never voted ona course of action, thereby not activating their MADP. A pretty forlorn hope if you ask me.
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Myth is right, but what basically sealed the SF/XX cooperation (forced or not) is that Fark topic. It was then super easy to convince everyone that XX and SF had the same goal, Of course there are still people to this day that swear Fark had plans to hit NoR. So, how you view that topic really effects (did I use the wrong word?) the view on SF/XX's working together. I personally believe that the strategic minds wanted XX dead, and that the sentimentals wanted SF. If DH hadn't have jumped on the roll SF bandwagon then this topic would be taking place years ago. MJ was never extremely friendly to DH and everyone knew Fark was an opponent to PB. Anger was very high concerning MK at the time as well. Things even had to be smoothed over with their closest allies in ODN and if Roq is to be believed Umbrella as well. So incompetence bought themselves two years or so by participating in good propoganda. I'm sure that's going to be the strategy moving forward as well. Create enough outrage at the uncooperative procedures taken by certain parties that everyone forgets you're assholes.

WC, you are unfortunately wrong at least from history. There was already a precedent set for indivual alliances to not cooperate with SF bloc policy (RoK). Given RnR's multiple outside treaties( with people as diverse as IRON, FOK, and Int), it wouldn't have been strange to see it again.

Edited by Omniscient1
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There was no "marrying," and you're ignorant if you think before it was made patently clear to us by certain parties there was absolutely no alternative what so ever, (including taking a beating in the first war and many other offers of future collaboration and virtually any other option aside from completely disregarding our treaties,) was there a firm decision to act as a unit for even the first war.

 

This is completely absurd. Pressure on RnR (real or not) to pick a block doesnt mean SHIT. They were STILL members of both blocs. It was a marriage of the 2 blocs the moment XX was founded. No amount of spin from you or anyone else can change it. No amount of pressure on RnR is going to change that. They have been in both blocs since the day XX was founded. They still are. IT IS A MARRIAGE. 

 

Umbrella was put in a position by its allies to use its strength to further their (and to a lesser degree even Umbrella's,) own agenda. 

 

Welcome to Planet Bob politics. There is not a central figure in ANY build up to ANY global war that you cannot transpose Umbrella's name with someone else's name and have the same statement be just as true. If these things were not true and did not happen, there would never be any conflict. That is just the reality of the (OOC) political simulator nature of the game (end OOC). Umbrella takes alot of shit, especially from  your side about "how they handled and treated MHA and Sparta" over this time period. Yet every last freaking one of you would be lining up to suck on their teet if they had done to MK and GOONS and ODN what they "did to you." Sparta would love them, and would respect and defend the "difficult choice they had to make".... MHA would do that same. YOU would do the same. It became a tug of war and quite frankly you lost and are butthurt. If you had won, you would be wearing a skirt and an umbrella sweater and carrying around black pom poms. Accept that you lost the tug of war and move on.

 

It is precisely that lack of foresight that lead your coalition into it's first major defeat. Dare I say you may even be doomed to repeat your mistakes if you continue to believe the world is flat.

 

 

It was nothing more than time and a cycle that led us to this defeat. It was not genius strategic planning on the part of you. On the part of Schatt. On the part of Chejoe, on the part of ANYONE else on your side who has been boasting about building up to this for 2 years or so. Its an absurd notion. The one thing that Doomhouse and ~ now have in common is that they are both now 100% aware that nothing you do while you are on top, will be the right thing. Every little thing (and big thing) will push someone further away, until your own time is up. Duckroll is next in the cycle.

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It's true that nothing you do while at the top is right, but I'm not sure that's the largest issue. I'm fairly certain that eating your own is the largest barrier to staying in power. This announcement is ultimately the result of DH attacking it's own power base, and DH's initial rise is arguably the result of tC going after their power base.

 

The problem with testing that theory is that it would awful boring; spheres at their height included about everyone except the core of the previous power sphere. Nobody wants to fight the same isolated group for years.

Edited by Roadie
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It's true that nothing you do while at the top is right, but I'm not sure that's the largest issue. I'm fairly certain that eating your own is the largest barrier to staying in power. This announcement is ultimately the result of DH attacking it's own power base, and DH's initial rise is arguably the result of tC going after their power base.

 

The problem with testing that theory is that it would awful boring; spheres at their height included about everyone except the core of the previous power sphere. Nobody wants to fight the same isolated group for years.

 

That just kind of backs up my statement that its a cycle that brings power spheres down, not plotting or planning by anyone 2 years out.

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It was nothing more than time and a cycle that led us to this defeat. It was not genius strategic planning on the part of you. On the part of Schatt. On the part of Chejoe, on the part of ANYONE else on your side who has been boasting about building up to this for 2 years or so. Its an absurd notion. The one thing that Doomhouse and ~ now have in common is that they are both now 100% aware that nothing you do while you are on top, will be the right thing. Every little thing (and big thing) will push someone further away, until your own time is up. Duckroll is next in the cycle.

 

Cool you (TLR) going to burn with them as well as NPO?

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Cool you (TLR) going to burn with them as well as NPO?

How many direct treaties do TLR have with that side again?

Also implying RnR can be in two blocs and those two blocs kill each other is fucking retarded, stop saying XX was against helping SF.
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Myth is right, there was an extensive pressure on RnR to pick a bloc.

A fact many knew about, but RnR never actually got around to doing it. Had they done so, it'd have taken a lot of wind out of my "they're one in the same" argument connecting everybody back to Xiphosis and the general disdain for him, GOD, and SF generally. Had SF and XX decoupled at any point, VE's position would have beaten out MK's, many treaties would have remained, and the world would probably be pretty different.
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A fact many knew about, but RnR never actually got around to doing it. Had they done so, it'd have taken a lot of wind out of my "they're one in the same" argument connecting everybody back to Xiphosis and the general disdain for him, GOD, and SF generally. Had SF and XX decoupled at any point, VE's position would have beaten out MK's, many treaties would have remained, and the world would probably be pretty different.


Since your argument is purely hypothetical we'll never know, but by your own words I'm calling bullshit.
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Since your argument is purely hypothetical we'll never know, but by your own words I'm calling bullshit.

For much of the leadup to Grudge, VE and MK were battling to convince PB of who was a bigger threat to the general sphere of influence: SF/XX, who'd acted recklessly, farmed up resentment even beyond DH, and was flirting with Polaris; or DR/MJ, who had an uncomfortable portion of the old Hegemony and was considered generally pretty competent. One of my consistent arguments was that, by virtue of SF being tightly knit sortof-MADP bloc, and R&R's presence in XX, there was no circumstance where any part of those two blocs would abandon any other part. Further, if SF joined with Polaris' little sphere, it would create one large axis that C&G/DH/PB would be unable to take on by itself in the event of a split, which was inevitable in the wake of a PB-MJ war.

The argument had weaknesses. We knew that SF/XX wasn't entirely unified and Impero frequently argued, with some passion, that SF/XX wasn't some monolithic body and in any event lacked sufficient cohesion to project itself. Frankly he was right, but the foretold breakup of SF/XX never happened and I responded that SF/XX didn't need to project--we only needed some sideshow, like the Weeaboo War, to go hot so as to force a split, as it very nearly did. There was also the problem that Polaris and SF/XX, despite making goo-goo eyes at each other, weren't formally linking together. TOP still wanted revenge and was losing patience. There was a real chance that TOP would attack Polaris before any union, destroy its sphere of influence, and eliminate the looming threat of an SF/XX/NpO axis without actually damaging SF/XX at all.

But everything went my way damn near by chance. R&R stayed in both blocs so the drumbeat kept on and treaties began to fall by the wayside. Roq, who had been obstinate about retaining Sparta and MHA, retired and was replaced by Johnny Apocalypse, who was slightly more open to the idea. At the same time, Myth was trash talking Umbrella on CNtel. Poof went the Umb-MHA treaty. And at the last possible moment, RIA shacked up with Polaris. TOP lunged and the whole of SF/XX/NpO was crushed, mostly by PF/DR/MJ.

If any one of those things didn't occur, that war would have at the least played out differently. If none of them occurred, I don't think Grudge would have happened at all--I think Impero's advocacy would have won out in PB and we'd have gotten a totally different war. I mean, hell, FOK came within a hair's breadth of declaring war on Dark Templar in spite of everything going my way.

Ultimately all of this is now mostly a historical curiosity, because the era it helped define is substantially over.
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For much of the leadup to Grudge, VE and MK were battling to convince PB of who was a bigger threat to the general sphere of influence: SF/XX, who'd acted recklessly, farmed up resentment even beyond DH, and was flirting with Polaris; or DR/MJ, who had an uncomfortable portion of the old Hegemony and was considered generally pretty competent. One of my consistent arguments was that, by virtue of SF being tightly knit sortof-MADP bloc, and R&R's presence in XX, there was no circumstance where any part of those two blocs would abandon any other part. Further, if SF joined with Polaris' little sphere, it would create one large axis that C&G/DH/PB would be unable to take on by itself in the event of a split, which was inevitable in the wake of a PB-MJ war.

The argument had weaknesses. We knew that SF/XX wasn't entirely unified and Impero frequently argued, with some passion, that SF/XX wasn't some monolithic body and in any event lacked sufficient cohesion to project itself. Frankly he was right, but the foretold breakup of SF/XX never happened and I responded that SF/XX didn't need to project--we only needed some sideshow, like the Weeaboo War, to go hot so as to force a split, as it very nearly did. There was also the problem that Polaris and SF/XX, despite making goo-goo eyes at each other, weren't formally linking together. TOP still wanted revenge and was losing patience. There was a real chance that TOP would attack Polaris before any union, destroy its sphere of influence, and eliminate the looming threat of an SF/XX/NpO axis without actually damaging SF/XX at all.

But everything went my way damn near by chance. R&R stayed in both blocs so the drumbeat kept on and treaties began to fall by the wayside. Roq, who had been obstinate about retaining Sparta and MHA, retired and was replaced by Johnny Apocalypse, who was slightly more open to the idea. At the same time, Myth was trash talking Umbrella on CNtel. Poof went the Umb-MHA treaty. And at the last possible moment, RIA shacked up with Polaris. TOP lunged and the whole of SF/XX/NpO was crushed, mostly by PF/DR/MJ.

If any one of those things didn't occur, that war would have at the least played out differently. If none of them occurred, I don't think Grudge would have happened at all--I think Impero's advocacy would have won out in PB and we'd have gotten a totally different war. I mean, hell, FOK came within a hair's breadth of declaring war on Dark Templar in spite of everything going my way.

Ultimately all of this is now mostly a historical curiosity, because the era it helped define is substantially over.

 

This is an EXTREMELY accurate representation of the thought processes going on at the time. And since it is so accurate, Omni will be along shortly to tell us how wrong it is.,... 

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This is an EXTREMELY accurate representation of the thought processes going on at the time. And since it is so accurate, Omni will be along shortly to tell us how wrong it is.,... 

 

Hell, I was in DT at the time and consider that to most likely be the most accurate representation of that period. I know while MJ was around, I was doing googledocs on the buildup of MJ vs SF/XX simply because it was felt that due to R&R being in both, they would roll together regardless of anything else.

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For much of the leadup to Grudge, VE and MK were battling to convince PB of who was a bigger threat to the general sphere of influence: SF/XX, who'd acted recklessly, farmed up resentment even beyond DH, and was flirting with Polaris; or DR/MJ, who had an uncomfortable portion of the old Hegemony and was considered generally pretty competent. One of my consistent arguments was that, by virtue of SF being tightly knit sortof-MADP bloc, and R&R's presence in XX, there was no circumstance where any part of those two blocs would abandon any other part. Further, if SF joined with Polaris' little sphere, it would create one large axis that C&G/DH/PB would be unable to take on by itself in the event of a split, which was inevitable in the wake of a PB-MJ war.

The argument had weaknesses. We knew that SF/XX wasn't entirely unified and Impero frequently argued, with some passion, that SF/XX wasn't some monolithic body and in any event lacked sufficient cohesion to project itself. Frankly he was right, but the foretold breakup of SF/XX never happened and I responded that SF/XX didn't need to project--we only needed some sideshow, like the Weeaboo War, to go hot so as to force a split, as it very nearly did. There was also the problem that Polaris and SF/XX, despite making goo-goo eyes at each other, weren't formally linking together. TOP still wanted revenge and was losing patience. There was a real chance that TOP would attack Polaris before any union, destroy its sphere of influence, and eliminate the looming threat of an SF/XX/NpO axis without actually damaging SF/XX at all.

But everything went my way damn near by chance. R&R stayed in both blocs so the drumbeat kept on and treaties began to fall by the wayside. Roq, who had been obstinate about retaining Sparta and MHA, retired and was replaced by Johnny Apocalypse, who was slightly more open to the idea. At the same time, Myth was trash talking Umbrella on CNtel. Poof went the Umb-MHA treaty. And at the last possible moment, RIA shacked up with Polaris. TOP lunged and the whole of SF/XX/NpO was crushed, mostly by PF/DR/MJ.

If any one of those things didn't occur, that war would have at the least played out differently. If none of them occurred, I don't think Grudge would have happened at all--I think Impero's advocacy would have won out in PB and we'd have gotten a totally different war. I mean, hell, FOK came within a hair's breadth of declaring war on Dark Templar in spite of everything going my way.

Ultimately all of this is now mostly a historical curiosity, because the era it helped define is substantially over.

I greatly enjoyed your monologue, but we were discussing a theoretical future of SF without XX.

If I understand your position correctly, you say "If SF and XX had split, VE could have diverted the target from SF to MJ. XX then would have been safe". Now again let me stress how theoretical and absolutely pointless this is at this point, but a VE lead coalition would not have been any more safe for an XX without SF than a MK lead world with an XX tied to SF. XX still had many ties to MJ, three off the top of my head. If you remember most people considered XX to be an anti-PB bloc. It was no secret they arrived late and without enthusiasm to the previous war, and the government of Fark had made several anti-PB statements in private. It would take no Bob historian to realize the many stumbling blocs between Fark-GOONS and Fark-VE relations. Hell, even Sardonic himself gave veiled references to the XX-PB situations at the time. Schatt even made a thread about it. So even if XX had abandoned SF they still would not have been safe.

So I have no reason to doubt what you said in your egotistical, but very well informed post. However, it does nothing to take away from what I claimed. Unless we were originally discussing two completely different problems (though I wouldn't know how else to interpret your post), I'm going to assume your post was some red herring in order to deflect my comment.

Since we are EXTREMELY off topic though, I'm not sure we will be able to continue our conversation for long. But if you do still have a different opinion than I do my inbox is always open (and I have no problem with a group message if my friend Rushsykes would like to participate in order to give you rhetorical pats on the back). Rush and I may even enjoy speaking about that time, because it was around this time that our long standing IC friendship faltered. I will agree on one thing though. Yes you did get extremely lucky.

Congrats on peace everyone. Edited by Omniscient1
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That's all well and good, but they didn't. They kept a foot in both camps, and XX did nothing to resolve that. Besides which, if you really wanted to avoid fighting on SF's behalf, you never would have included R&R in XX in the first place. The only way that you could have prevented being joined at the hip with SF in wartime under those circumstances would be if SF never voted ona course of action, thereby not activating their MADP. A pretty forlorn hope if you ask me.

 

 

You're speaking in absolutist terms. Black and White. SF and XX are married. No context on XX's founding, R&R's inclusion or even its relationship within the bloc itself at the onset.

 

Putting this chunk of history aside for the moment --

 

At the time R&R also held obligations to FOK, and Sparta and MHA held obligations to Umbrella. 

 

There was a greater gambit being played. I'm fortunate enough to be able to speak with more clarity as I don't have a hand here nor there and haven't for some time, but the idea that R&R's inclusion of XX was a problem is a red herring (much as most of Rush's rhetoric of yore,) as Omni correctly attributes to propaganda of a certain few (hilariously still perpetuated by some,) as the driving force to isolate and engage SF and XX together or separately as soon as possible. The combination of everyone tipping their hand and the total lack of imagination for the future by some as well as the gleeful indifference for a few others to not ruin the favor of seeing two relatively large power centers dismantled and having the blame put squarely on the shoulders of a select few (namely MK and C&G,) was something easy to sign up for. If it included Polaris, the more the better.

 

 

However none of this gets at the reason for my ridiculously long post on the previous page -- the misconception that SF / XX were inherently destined to develop into whatever that relationship may be today. It simply could not be farther from the truth. While there certainly would have been drama (planned and some unplanned no doubt,) involved, provided the powers that be had not been so dead set on seeing both torched (and then again with future consideration icing on the cake,) did it allow a relationship to develop that quite honestly would never have been allowed to happen had there been a reasonable alternative.

 

 

R&R's inclusion wasn't done on the other three signatories part as a measure of good will or friendly gesture towards SF by any stretch of the imagination, and it's not as if R&R did not have its own reasons for joining as well. To think any of them was to sing a song and dance for the boogeyman is amateur analysis at best.

 

It is ironic that Polaris did end up signing a treaty with Sparta, as Sparta was the most vehement of not signing a treaty with them during this previous era as to avoid the situation as described by Ardus of fighting another battle for another. He does warmly smile kindly upon his own brand of revisionism of that era -- particularly that a massive amount of leaked logs continued to stall progress on selling the idea to PB and others, festering internal dissent within PB as well as that most of those pieces stayed the same up until the very end and it took a massive (nearly a year and a half,) amount of time to piece together. Perhaps foreshadowing about his future home. TOP speed for certain in that endeavor at least.

 

I think you are a tad naive and may underestimate Umbrella, as even the first time I spoke with JA he intimated his belief MHA-Umbrella were not compatible and the piece of paper certainly did not help Sparta. Umbrella had their own direction to be concerned about and for all of the fun political blowback I get for correctly predicting their course of action on Cntel until the very end there was no-one, including in Umbrella's government working as hard to try to find a better ending to the story than many rival upper tiers being smashed to bits and seeing their own as the last standing. I simply don't think there was one.

 

For myself, the goal was not to avoid being pulled into a battle that was not ours for a party that was not thankful and for whom we held no future. At the time there were many alternatives but sometimes cyclical politics get in the way of things, and an alternative reality was presented for those that moved forward that had different dynamics.

 

To say that the SF/XX was an actual thing is as Ardus via Impero knew to be not true. I imagine that might have changed following the mutual struggle and round two, but I make no assumptions on the present or future only statements as to the beginning.

 

Also, Omni makes another point that certainly is interesting. While I did grow to respect Xiph it was a respect not borne out of being bff's but the understanding that he was a very dangerous character. One whom while I knew while likely to be on my side was willing to work his tie with VE to his advantage just as he knew we were willing to work ours with Umbrella if it was possible, neither situations particularly amiable to the other bloc long-term.

 

Fun history lessons though.

 

Also, I'd like to think there'll be more intrigue than what we came up with (like everyone says after every era,) but I really do doubt it -- and it's good some of it gets more daylight than stays buried. idk i had fun.

 

~CoNgRaTs On PeAcE eVeRyOnE~

Edited by IYIyTh
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Just realized our side was labeled "Umbrella Coalition" rather than by the name we all chose. It's rather rude.

 

I thought your biggest problem with it would have been your signature not as god-king and protector of Johan for TOP

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