RIA Treaty Cancellation

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1302369569' post='2687458']
History usually repeats itself and those in power tends to become more aggressive in the course of time with those who dislike them or their acts, so my assumptions probably will become true, soon or later.
[/quote]

If history repeats itself, do we get to fight polar's coalition again? Just like in unjust war, in NoCB war, and in the bi-polar war, and this war?

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1302374396' post='2687501']
If history repeats itself, do we get to fight polar's coalition again? Just like in unjust war, in NoCB war, and in the bi-polar war, and this war?
[/quote]

Do you want/need to?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='leprecon' timestamp='1302372875' post='2687492']
Also, sucks that this treaty was cancelled. Sadly this thread has to be followed by the usual anti-VE lynchmob that is expected on the OWF.
[/quote][quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1302374094' post='2687500']
Good to see this.
[/quote]
lol, welcome, bigwoody! Here's a torch for you, you brought your own pitchfork right?

Edited April 9, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Bob Ilyani]

This is awesome. Good choice RIA.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302370048' post='2687465']
Fredo, your breaking my heart here. Are you really trying to say that all of your involvement in planning this thing out was because you were afraid you would be attacked? Are you serious? If thats the case, it damn sure is exactly like you hid your feelings about the situation from the get go. You weren't "given the options", you worked out a plan hand in hand with the rest of us, after hours of discussion. You did the same after the Rok ordeal was solved and weighed in on many other situations that did not involve RIA, including the hit on NPO. Now, maybe its just me, but that sounds like you were working with your allies and extended network of friends as we all always have at the top level when a war or near war breaks out, not being forced under type of duress. Listen, I've always kind of acted under the assumption (even though I know that its not that case) that you were RIA, but if this is the kind of stuff your relaying to your membership about your involvement, then no wonder they are pissed.
[/quote]
No, I didn't do it because I was afraid of being attacked. I worked with you because I wanted to find the best resolution for everyone involved on the issues that arose. I was happy with the solutions we hashed out insofar as they were better than the alternative options. I was more than happy to wind up fighting on both sides for all of my allies. That doesn't mean I was happy about the necessity of doing so, or the specific circumstances of the case. I don't like arguing with my friends, and I don't like having to split my loyalties.

That wasn't a list of reasons I'm mad at VE and wanted to cancel our treaty. To be honest, most of the stuff I listed comes down to random crap that happens when you're trying to please as many people as possible with various plans in a situation as heated as a war. I really don't hold that stuff against you, regardless of how it sounds when everything is listed at once. I'll even cop to the fact that I was more than willing to work on the issues with you, because we've worked well together in the past and I legitimately [i]like[/i] helping out people I consider friends.

What that list was, is a set of reasons why it ticks me off when I get told "You were involved in the decision making process, so if you had any problems, they're your own fault." I involved myself to help, and to keep conflicts from blowing up in everyone's faces as much as possible. I took the options that I thought were best, and felt the most comfortable with, but that doesn't make them universally good options. I [i]was[/i] forced to make the choices I made, and I made the best of what I was given. I wasn't, however, forced by you, or anyone else in VE. I was forced by circumstance. I know there are a lot of people out there who want to play the blame game and will say things like "VE created the circumstances" or "Polar created the circumstances" or "random ex-NSO guy" created the circumstances.

That would all be a lot of bull. I created my own circumstances. I knew people in PB and major issues with Polar, and vice versa. I was aware of what a mess that would result in for me. I tried to convince various people that this particular fight was a bad one to pick, and I mean Polar v PB, not the specific case that resulted. I very obviously failed in that regard, and in doing so, I set myself up for the mess that followed.

I don't think I've ever fought a war where I could break the sides down cleanly into friends and enemies. The closest I could come to saying that is probably GWIII, largely because I barely knew anyone else that was actually fighting in the war on either side. What I have striven very hard to do, and have thus far been largely successful, is never having a war where the delineation of enemies and [i]allies[/i] was blurred. The closest that I got to that was the Karma War where I held a treaty with the NPO. I still consider signing that treaty to be the one real mistake I've made, not because NPO was "evil" but because I was aware there was a major conflict of political interest at the time I signed it and did so anyway. The fact that I expected the conflict to eventually arise out of NPO/Q/1V eventually rolling one of my allies and pulling me under as well, rather than the reverse, doesn't excuse the decision to put my name down on something that was so blatantly going to be incapable of being fulfilled by either party at some point that I had to request what amounted to an inferiority clause.

Since then, I've striven very, very hard to keep "allies" and "friends" as largely separate labels. I'm not going to ally someone I'm not friends with, but allying everyone I was friends with wasn't going to work for me, and my regret over how the NPO treaty was handled pretty much for the duration of its existence up through Karma heavily reinforced that specific value. I've had friends on the other side of WotC, Karma and Bi-Polar. Where I could, I helped them out, but if I'd been committed to defend them, I'd have had to disappoint one said of allies, or be of use to nobody. You can wave to your friends across the line and joke about the war. It's much, much harder to wave to an ally from across the line and keep them as a friend, because promising to help someone and then bailing at the time when they need you is a breach of trust.

So I've largely avoided signing high level treaties with alliances who were politically rooted in different groupings than me, or who had direct conflicts with any of my allies, or in most cases even their allies. I'd do that regardless of whether I really liked the alliance in question or not, because I take my commitments seriously, and putting myself in a position where I can't fulfill them is not something I'm willing to do.

When you signed PB, there were a few alliances I was a bit wary of in that grouping, but I wasn't overly concerned. Things like the GOD/GOONS split, the NEW incident and the SOS thing were all a bit disconcerting, but there were positive interactions with other members of PB and the very positive Umbrella Q&A all helped cover over that stuff. And then we get to the war.

Regardless of how anyone else feels, I'm not upset about the war itself, and as much as certain events in it upset me, I'm not terribly pissed off at VE's behavior during it. I don't think there was a whole lot that was blameworthy, and what negative interaction did exist is understandable given the highly stressful situation most of us found ourselves in during the war.

What the war did was illustrate rather colorfully exactly what happens when you do have your loyalties scattered among various political groupings instead of keeping them tight. I'm not just talking about the position I found myself in, either. I had a bountiful number of teachers over the course of the war. Hell, look what happened to Rok, itself. What I got out of the experience was that paying strict attention to someone's alignment before you sign a treaty with them is useless if you put the blinders on and hope that everyone will remain in a position that will allow you to balance all of your commitments into perpetuity.

As much as I dislike it, PB is not in the same political position as I am. There are plenty of members that I like, but there are also plenty of people that have made it evident that they don't like me or some of my other allies. The good in the bloc doesn't erase the potential for political headbutting with other members. I hope I never find myself opposite VE on the battlefield, and with the GOD treaty in place, I have good reason to believe that won't happen, but I can't justify directly tying myself into this many disparate political groups.

Perhaps I should have made a final attempt to go and talk this over, but honestly, what was I going to do? It's not as if I was going to be able to request that you dismantle everything you'd built and bring yourself more in line with our own political position. Even if you had been willing to do so, it would just mean that I'd actively put you into a position that you weren't comfortable in back when I was trying to [i]avoid[/i] making you feel like a satellite alliance. You've managed to put together everything you wanted, and I am both impressed by it and truly happy that you've managed to accomplish what you were looking for, but as much as it pains me, it's not something I'm capable of being a part of. That is something I really do regret.

P.S. For the record, I make a point to avoid relaying negative experiences to my membership. Most of them don't closely follow politics on a highly detailed level, and I'm very aware of the effect that leadership pouring negative comments into the membership has on their perception of things. So no, that post wasn't what I've been telling them. I'm pretty sure I didn't mention any of that to anyone prior to that post with the possible exception of various gov level individuals. My members came up with their opinions all by themselves, but thanks for assuming I was trying to poison people against you.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1302377815' post='2687532']
No, I didn't do it because I was afraid of being attacked. I worked with you because I wanted to find the best resolution for everyone involved on the issues that arose. I was happy with the solutions we hashed out insofar as they were better than the alternative options. I was more than happy to wind up fighting on both sides for all of my allies. That doesn't mean I was happy about the necessity of doing so, or the specific circumstances of the case. I don't like arguing with my friends, and I don't like having to split my loyalties.

That wasn't a list of reasons I'm mad at VE and wanted to cancel our treaty. To be honest, most of the stuff I listed comes down to random crap that happens when you're trying to please as many people as possible with various plans in a situation as heated as a war. I really don't hold that stuff against you, regardless of how it sounds when everything is listed at once. I'll even cop to the fact that I was more than willing to work on the issues with you, because we've worked well together in the past and I legitimately [i]like[/i] helping out people I consider friends.

What that list was, is a set of reasons why it ticks me off when I get told "You were involved in the decision making process, so if you had any problems, they're your own fault." I involved myself to help, and to keep conflicts from blowing up in everyone's faces as much as possible. I took the options that I thought were best, and felt the most comfortable with, but that doesn't make them universally good options. I [i]was[/i] forced to make the choices I made, and I made the best of what I was given. I wasn't, however, forced by you, or anyone else in VE. I was forced by circumstance. I know there are a lot of people out there who want to play the blame game and will say things like "VE created the circumstances" or "Polar created the circumstances" or "random ex-NSO guy" created the circumstances.

That would all be a lot of bull. I created my own circumstances. I knew people in PB and major issues with Polar, and vice versa. I was aware of what a mess that would result in for me. I tried to convince various people that this particular fight was a bad one to pick, and I mean Polar v PB, not the specific case that resulted. I very obviously failed in that regard, and in doing so, I set myself up for the mess that followed.

I don't think I've ever fought a war where I could break the sides down cleanly into friends and enemies. The closest I could come to saying that is probably GWIII, largely because I barely knew anyone else that was actually fighting in the war on either side. What I have striven very hard to do, and have thus far been largely successful, is never having a war where the delineation of enemies and [i]allies[/i] was blurred. The closest that I got to that was the Karma War where I held a treaty with the NPO. I still consider signing that treaty to be the one real mistake I've made, not because NPO was "evil" but because I was aware there was a major conflict of political interest at the time I signed it and did so anyway. The fact that I expected the conflict to eventually arise out of NPO/Q/1V eventually rolling one of my allies and pulling me under as well, rather than the reverse, doesn't excuse the decision to put my name down on something that was so blatantly going to be incapable of being fulfilled by either party at some point that I had to request what amounted to an inferiority clause.

Since then, I've striven very, very hard to keep "allies" and "friends" as largely separate labels. I'm not going to ally someone I'm not friends with, but allying everyone I was friends with wasn't going to work for me, and my regret over how the NPO treaty was handled pretty much for the duration of its existence up through Karma heavily reinforced that specific value. I've had friends on the other side of WotC, Karma and Bi-Polar. Where I could, I helped them out, but if I'd been committed to defend them, I'd have had to disappoint one said of allies, or be of use to nobody. You can wave to your friends across the line and joke about the war. It's much, much harder to wave to an ally from across the line and keep them as a friend, because promising to help someone and then bailing at the time when they need you is a breach of trust.

So I've largely avoided signing high level treaties with alliances who were politically rooted in different groupings than me, or who had direct conflicts with any of my allies, or in most cases even their allies. I'd do that regardless of whether I really liked the alliance in question or not, because I take my commitments seriously, and putting myself in a position where I can't fulfill them is not something I'm willing to do.

When you signed PB, there were a few alliances I was a bit wary of in that grouping, but I wasn't overly concerned. Things like the GOD/GOONS split, the NEW incident and the SOS thing were all a bit disconcerting, but there were positive interactions with other members of PB and the very positive Umbrella Q&A all helped cover over that stuff. And then we get to the war.

Regardless of how anyone else feels, I'm not upset about the war itself, and as much as certain events in it upset me, I'm not terribly pissed off at VE's behavior during it. I don't think there was a whole lot that was blameworthy, and what negative interaction did exist is understandable given the highly stressful situation most of us found ourselves in during the war.

What the war did was illustrate rather colorfully exactly what happens when you do have your loyalties scattered among various political groupings instead of keeping them tight. I'm not just talking about the position I found myself in, either. I had a bountiful number of teachers over the course of the war. Hell, look what happened to Rok, itself. What I got out of the experience was that paying strict attention to someone's alignment before you sign a treaty with them is useless if you put the blinders on and hope that everyone will remain in a position that will allow you to balance all of your commitments into perpetuity.

As much as I dislike it, PB is not in the same political position as I am. There are plenty of members that I like, but there are also plenty of people that have made it evident that they don't like me or some of my other allies. The good in the bloc doesn't erase the potential for political headbutting with other members. I hope I never find myself opposite VE on the battlefield, and with the GOD treaty in place, I have good reason to believe that won't happen, but I can't justify directly tying myself into this many disparate political groups.

Perhaps I should have made a final attempt to go and talk this over, but honestly, what was I going to do? It's not as if I was going to be able to request that you dismantle everything you'd built and bring yourself more in line with our own political position. Even if you had been willing to do so, it would just mean that I'd actively put you into a position that you weren't comfortable in back when I was trying to [i]avoid[/i] making you feel like a satellite alliance. You've managed to put together everything you wanted, and I am both impressed by it and truly happy that you've managed to accomplish what you were looking for, but as much as it pains me, it's not something I'm capable of being a part of. That is something I really do regret.

P.S. For the record, I make a point to avoid relaying negative experiences to my membership. Most of them don't closely follow politics on a highly detailed level, and I'm very aware of the effect that leadership pouring negative comments into the membership has on their perception of things. So no, that post wasn't what I've been telling them. I'm pretty sure I didn't mention any of that to anyone prior to that post with the possible exception of various gov level individuals. My members came up with their opinions all by themselves, but thanks for assuming I was trying to poison people against you.
[/quote]

This is more what I assumed you meant when I first read your first post but it didn't come off that way, hence my shocked reply, so thank you for clarifying. I agree with and understand everything you said above, which is probably why we've always worked so well together in the past. I only wish you said it outright like this earlier, because, while it may not be apparent at first glance and you may not see it right now, there is a way to reconcile both positions and perceptions.

I won't go any further on that here, since that type of discussion is more appropriate for private.

As for the "you were part of it so don't be pissed about it" thing, I believe your taking it the wrong way. The message is more don't hold it against us, rather then trying to say you don't have a right to be less then pleased, and the sentiment is more directed at our respective memberships then you personally. Also, I didn't assume you were trying to poison your membership against us. Rather, the comment was directed at the fact that some of your membership seems to think you were dragged by your teeth with a blindfold on through this war, and the way your first post read prior to this clarification, it seemed to reinforce that view. So basically I was being sarcastic :x

Either way, don't take the agitated replies here to heart. I understand your point of view, and hope its something we can work on.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[hizzy]

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1302360666' post='2687407']
Now i know what the NV-VE treaty cancellation thread will look like......and i hate RIA for stealing the bull !@#$ reason that we were going to use
[/quote]

this joke would be a lot better if/when it actually happens.

but seriously this thread reminds me of what a great man once said about Planet Bob politics... people who are best friends will be best friends until they cancel a treaty, at which point you find out they were never best friends in the first place and all their wubs and caek was a load of crap. (it's me im the great man who said it)

[berbers]

[quote name='hizzy' timestamp='1302379513' post='2687545']
this joke would be a lot better if/when it actually happens.

but seriously this thread reminds me of what a great man once said about Planet Bob politics... people who are best friends will be best friends until they cancel a treaty, at which point you find out they were never best friends in the first place and all their wubs and caek was a load of crap. ([b]it's me im the great man who said it[/b])
[/quote]

Anyone whose nuked as many GOONS as you have gets my vote!

Hizzy for great man 2011!

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302379012' post='2687540']
As for the "you were part of it so don't be pissed about it" thing, I believe your taking it the wrong way. The message is more don't hold it against us, rather then trying to say you don't have a right to be less then pleased, and the sentiment is more directed at our respective memberships then you personally. Also, I didn't assume you were trying to poison your membership against us. Rather, the comment was directed at the fact that some of your membership seems to think you were dragged by your teeth with a blindfold on through this war, and the way your first post read prior to this clarification, it seemed to reinforce that view. So basically I was being sarcastic :x
[/quote]
Well, if Delta isn't telling the RIA membership anything, it's quite possible some of them [i]were[/i] dragged into the war by their teeth.

[Bob Ilyani]

How many old relationships will VE have to destroy until they've realized that they've done wrong?

[Solaris]

You've been good allies, RIA. See you around.

[King Wally]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1302353768' post='2687378']
Thats how I remember it as well, although I enjoy and am entertained when people try to assign more then what is there. We all do it, ive done it but it dosent make it any less entertaining. Anyway I thought this was about Shatt? Now the umbrella people are here? GOONS coming in next or were they pages 4-8 ? Never let up Wally, say hi to Alfred for me.
[/quote]

Cheers Thorgrum... i hope your new alliance is going well by the way!

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1302383994' post='2687558']
How many old relationships will VE have to destroy until they've realized that they've done wrong?
[/quote]
All of them. All of the relationships.

[Hydro]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1302386658' post='2687577']
All of them. All of the relationships.
[/quote]

Pulling an NPO, but on the green sphere...GGA 2.0 amirite?

[kevin32891]

Hey !@#$ happens man.

[img]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/845/thumbnail29501.jpg[/img]

[King Death II]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1302383994' post='2687558']
How many old relationships will RoK have to destroy until they've realized that they've done wrong?
[/quote]

Hey man, I fixed that for you

[Dubsy]

congratulations RIA. A very wise move. insert something about wheat from chaff here.

[Mogar]

[quote name='King Death II' timestamp='1302402015' post='2687668']
Hey man, I fixed that for you
[/quote]
going to bat for an ally on the losing side will get you many brownie points for the majority of the cyberverse.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Mogar

[Aurion]

Boy, is my face red.

[bakamitai]

I like this announcement, for some strange reason. Good luck.

[zoskia]

o/ RIA !

I like this announcement a lot.

[Prodigal Moon]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1302377815' post='2687532']So I've largely avoided signing high level treaties with alliances who were politically rooted in different groupings than me, or who had direct conflicts with any of my allies, or in most cases even their allies. I'd do that regardless of whether I really liked the alliance in question or not, because I take my commitments seriously, and putting myself in a position where I can't fulfill them is not something I'm willing to do.[/quote]
Yessss. If enough people say it enough times, maybe it'll start to catch on...

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302370866' post='2687473']
I did, and there weren't from what I saw. Really, just get the hell out of this thread and go stare at yourself in the mirror some more or make a list of reasons why you think you are the second coming of jesus or something. I know you can't help yourself and need to try and interject yourself into every little situation that exists so you can try and make it into a PR point for the people you have a personal grudge against, but it's a nuisance to have to keep on slapping you around. This stuff is far above your pay grade and now that we are getting into the thick of it, you really have no idea what the hell your talking about.
[/quote]
Impero, there's an IRC channel full of people laughing their hinies off at this post, and only 2 of them are in CoJ. I think you should see a doctor about your Schattenmania, we're worried about ya, bud.

[img]http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/sigs/club15.png[/img]

Reply to my ideas. Delta has laid out RIA's FP just as many others including myself have said alliances should. Is he a propagandist now, too?

Edited April 10, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302415479' post='2687730']
Impero, there's an IRC channel full of people laughing their hinies off at this post, and only 2 of them are in CoJ. I think you should see a doctor about your Schattenmania, we're worried about ya, bud.

[img]http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/sigs/club15.png[/img]

Reply to my ideas. Delta has laid out RIA's FP just as many others including myself have said alliances should. Is he a propagandist now, too?
[/quote]

Sounds like you had a super fun saturday night!

I almost feel bad for you really.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Sithis' timestamp='1302367548' post='2687443']
Yeah they're right after Duckroll
[/quote]

I knew it!

GL to RIA and VE.

Edited April 10, 2011 by shahenshah