RIA Treaty Cancellation

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='King Charge' timestamp='1302463446' post='2687964']
Classy log dump though.
[/quote]

"Waaaah you exposed how terrible we are! you have no class waaaaaah!"

Deal with it. If you don't want to be exposed as a moron don't act like one.

[The Crimson King]

Edit:

Nevermind, this is getting off topic...taking it to PM.

Edited April 10, 2011 by The Crimson King

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302465590' post='2687985']
The winners of wars have charged reps throughout history. While I don't agree with it (and in fact VE has not done so in this war), that's not hegemonic, it just means we're winning.
[/quote]
But you stand steadfast with those who do. Which means that you are just as responsible, for enabling them to commit those crimes.

See, RIA doesn't want to be part of a Hegemony, they don't want to enable criminals.

VE does. And you'll suckle on the lower extremities of anyone who will let you be a part of that power structure.

But hey, more proof that the real VE died years ago when you disbanded. This incarnation has been terrible the whole time.

Kind of funny, really. LUE, VE, GOONS, Gen[m]ay, all alliances that couldn't cut it in the past. In a way, it's basic survival that you maintain your position on the top. Because if you should ever find yourself in a losing war, the lot of you just fold right away. LUE, GOONS, and Gen[m]ay will try to stick around and harvest any remaining possible pubbie tears, of course, but VE is a special case. No, VE can't last a whole day on the losing side of a war. And that's why you're only a second class citizen in the new hegemony.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302471378' post='2688023']
But you stand steadfast with those who do. Which means that you are just as responsible, for enabling them to commit those crimes.

See, RIA doesn't want to be part of a Hegemony, they don't want to enable criminals.

VE does. And you'll suckle on the lower extremities of anyone who will let you be a part of that power structure.

But hey, more proof that the real VE died years ago when you disbanded. This incarnation has been terrible the whole time.

Kind of funny, really. LUE, VE, GOONS, Gen[m]ay, all alliances that couldn't cut it in the past. In a way, it's basic survival that you maintain your position on the top. Because if you should ever find yourself in a losing war, the lot of you just fold right away. LUE, GOONS, and Gen[m]ay will try to stick around and harvest any remaining possible pubbie tears, of course, but VE is a special case. No, VE can't last a whole day on the losing side of a war. And that's why you're only a second class citizen in the new hegemony.
[/quote]

Have you ever thought of reading your posts out loud to yourself before you click that button? It might help if you actually listened to what you were saying so you can hear how ridiculous it actually sounds and then change the post so it doesn't sound as rubbish.

[Bob Janova]

I doubt there is a single non neutral alliance left which hasn't had an ally demand reps, to be honest. You're just a joke at this point.

[Kowalski]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302471378' post='2688023']
Kind of funny, really. LUE, VE, GOONS, Gen[m]ay, all alliances that couldn't cut it in the past. In a way, it's basic survival that you maintain your position on the top.
[/quote]
It's called learning from mistakes. You should try it sometime.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1302472063' post='2688032']
It's called learning from mistakes. You should try it sometime.
[/quote]
Core alliances on our side don't disband under a couple weeks of pressure. That roughly translates as: "We are better than you."

And that's what this war is about, hate. You hate us because we're better than you. Because we don't disband under the application of slight pressure, because our communities are strong, strength based on community, and not the hatred of a common enemy.

While you all require NPO in order to exist, none of us need you in order to exist.

That's why alliances like RIA trend away from your little band of thugs. And why some of you flip !@#$ over it, because you don't know how to deal with it, with the idea that not everyone burns with the same intense hatred that you do.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302472483' post='2688038']
That's why alliances like RIA trend away from your little band of thugs. And why some of you flip !@#$ over it, because you don't know how to deal with it, with the idea that not everyone burns with the same intense hatred that you do.
[/quote]

You've got some brown on your nose there, don't worry I'm sure no one will notice.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Kowalski]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302472483' post='2688038']
Core alliances on our side don't disband under a couple weeks of pressure. That roughly translates as: "We are better than you."
[/quote]
If they're better than anyone, which I would question anyway, it's the alliances that were, not what some remnants of those alliances turned into.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302472483' post='2688038']
Core alliances on our side don't disband under a couple weeks of pressure. That roughly translates as: "We are better than you."
[/quote]

Core alliances on your side accept viceroys under a couple weeks of pressure. Give me a break.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302472483' post='2688038']
"We are better than you."
[/quote]
I'd thank you kindly not to make me laugh so hard when I'm in a library.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1302472893' post='2688044']
Core alliances on your side accept viceroys under a couple weeks of pressure. Give me a break.
[/quote]
Uh sure, Legion did, back when Legion was a !@#$%* alliance and tried to disband. Pacifica made them strong. Now look at them. They can take the worst you can throw at them and weather the storm like pros.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302473404' post='2688049']
Uh sure, Legion did, back when Legion was a !@#$%* alliance and tried to disband. Pacifica made them strong. Now look at them. They can take the worst you can throw at them and weather the storm like pros.
[/quote]
Peace mode = pro's?

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302471927' post='2688030']
I doubt there is a single non neutral alliance left which hasn't had an ally demand reps, to be honest. You're just a joke at this point.
[/quote]

you stand corrected

none of the PPO's allies have demanded reps

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1302439651' post='2687811']
No grouping has ever had that capacity. Seriously, do you think the Continuum oppressed the entire planet?
[/quote]

Continuum, thanks to the no-aggression clause towards treaty partners implied that you only needed to be treatied to one to be safe from the others.. at least until that treaty partner was peer-pressured into dropping you and rolling you. So yeah, there was Continuum, the alliances around Continuum who were only targets when the others ran out and the other little disconnected groups that were beaten consecutively.

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1302439938' post='2687813']
If DH/PB/C&G & allies dont have the power to oppress the world how does NPO have the power to oppress the world. That is why you are trying to destroy them after all. You are forgetting the many posts including gov members and alliance leaders accepting that they are the hegemony and a desire to be as bad as NPO were during the course of this war, often laughing about it and telling people to do something about it.
[/quote]

As far as I know being Hegemony does not cross the dreams of our leadership.

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1302449318' post='2687857']
Ah yes, the ol' "do as we say or you will get perma-war" point, awesome!

That's actually worse than beating on them for being a future threat...

Your point was made a month ago "we don't like people spending the war in peace mode." Everyone get's it, we all understand your point. The entire month of March when you guys destroyed another multiple million NS from the NPO side got the point across. You can all pack your things up and go home now, message received.
[/quote]

Does it really matter if they understand it when they don't act accordingly? lol

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1302455296' post='2687904']
[color="#0000FF"]What point? That they can never ever rebuild as long as you're in power? That no alliance can be of any real size unless they've been given your blessing to exist?

And you wonder why RIA wishes to have nothing to do with you.[/color]
[/quote]

None of the rhetorical questions you rose are even considered by us, Umbrella.


[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1302458405' post='2687931']
No where does it say you have to "oppress the whole planet" for it to be considered a Hegemony.....your group is dominant ATM, you are CERTAINLY exerting power of another weaker group. You fit the defination in all ways, by word and action.

If it makes you sad to be a hegemony then do something about it other then try and spout off 'We arent oneeee' as that argument is invalid, although amusing for its inanity
[/quote]

Our group is hardly dominant at the moment. It's not likely we'll be dominant in any future time. The reason why there was a coalition to bring down NPO and allies is because most people did not like them and endorsed the beat down of NPO, not because of our treaty ties nor because we were somewhere pulling the strings via the treaty web for this to happen.

Regardless, being an hegemony is not exerting our power over a weak party. That can be called bullying. Hegemony implies we have no capable opposition from whatever side when we want to do whatever we do. We clearly do.

Just wondering, how many gag orders have you seen imposed in recent times compared to the period of Continuum hegemony? People not being afraid to speak off is a clear sign that we don't have the hegemonic power you attribute us.

[quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1302460922' post='2687949']
Technically this is accurate of any winner in any war that has ever been fought here. The winner always holds the upper hand in being able to dictate terms to the loser. It is in large part how they use that power that then defines them to the community. This was true of us when we were on top, and it is true of you now that you are.

One of the reasons that RoK does not get grief from the community about the 2 wars they started since Karma, is that their actions showed they are smart enough to know when a war is won, and they will walk away at that point. Both the NSO and the TPF wars were ended after a short period of war, and in both cases were not escalated. RoK had their target, they took their swings, scored their punches, shook hands and left the ring. People can claim that the NSO war was really about NPO, and while no one doubts the wolves were waiting in the shadows frothing at the mouth for NPO's entry, RoK does have the ability to point to their actions in that war to swiftly discredit those accusations.

Now if you can't see the difference between that and this war then you are either blind or being purposefully obtuse. Putting a double agent in play and planting info to give to an alliance (that just happens to be MDoAP with your allies) and then using it to roll them. Dragging another alliance into a war they had no involvement in via aggressive declaration, demanding reps from alliances multiple treaty chains out from the center of the conflict for an aggressive war you started, continuing a war over the "threat" posed by 19 total nations remaining in PM, peacing out the supposed main antagonist in this war (with white peace) so the actual supposed wronged party in this war (VE) can re-declare on other allies of NPO while peace was being discussed, and claiming they are doing so to "force" people to take the generous reps being offered by MK, and, as you said, refusing to back down from your demands out of nothing but pure spite so that you can show NPO who is really boss, are all actions that speak volumes about the bloc and the individual alliances still at war here.

As both you and Bob have said, this is no longer about NPO being a threat, it is about proving a point. You are keeping people at war on both this side and your allies (who are still the ones with the bulk of the actual wars here, and yet are also the ones willing to walk away with white peace) over what ammts to nothing but simple pride. So yes you are making a point, and you are reinforcing that point every-time you roll out onto en mass on the forums telling everyone how badass DH is for still pursuing this. You "point" has been made crystal clear by now, and while it is certainly yours to make, your choices and actions will be what other people judge you on, and by some extension those alliances you are tied to and those still fighting for you. That is no different then when Q was on top, and it is eventually why some people decided it was time to distance themselves from us rather than get painted with the broad strokes of that same brush.
[/quote]

Due to the huge number of replies I am afraid I can't give you a reply the size of your post but I'll say the following:

First, you can pull the "you're not sure NPO was not going to enter" card all the time you want. I am sure. My leaders were fairly sure too when they took the decision they took. That said, and once again, the reasons why this started are irrelevant for the way it ends.

Second, this has a lot to do with pride sure, but it also has to do with not allowing the precedent of running for Peace mode to settle. If NPO wanted, this war would have been over 2 months ago.

Third, it's my understanding - and as such, it might be wrong - that RoK threw their support behind the VE DoW on Polar and then pursued to turn around when the internal pressure kicked in. I am not exactly sure what it makes of them and their leaders, if weak or strong but stupid. Eitherway, they get more praise than they deserve.

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1302464495' post='2687973']
Curses, those rebels have perfected our magic ball and made it work even better than before. The dark lord displeases me in his inability to retrieve the plans. I shall ask Mary to send him assistance via our altered delorean that we stole the plans of from dh.
[/quote]

I don't understand you.

[eyriq]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302458719' post='2687934']
Careful CJ, you don't wanna end up paying them reps for lampooning them like me. Anyway, they're saving you from NPO, you should be thanking them.
[/quote]

You really need to abstract [i]your position[/i] in the treaty web from your analysis of global politics. I'm honestly surprised you are still spinning MK/Umbrella and company as hegemonic. Their power is directly proportional to the residual dissatisfaction with the [i]old hegemony[/i].

Edit: Whoops, I used the wrong quote. Fixed with my Ninja editing skillz

Edited April 10, 2011 by eyriq

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302472483' post='2688038']
Core alliances on our side don't disband under a couple weeks of pressure. That roughly translates as: "We are better than you."

And that's what this war is about, hate. You hate us because we're better than you. Because we don't disband under the application of slight pressure, because our communities are strong, strength based on community, and not the hatred of a common enemy.

While you all require NPO in order to exist, none of us need you in order to exist.

That's why alliances like RIA trend away from your little band of thugs. And why some of you flip !@#$ over it, because you don't know how to deal with it, with the idea that not everyone burns with the same intense hatred that you do.
[/quote]

You make everyone on "your side" beet red with embarrassment every time you post something like this. Plus, I'm not sure it's the smartest thing to be spouting off about how much better you are then the people that are going to dictate the time you get peace and the amount of reps you end up paying.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1302475041' post='2688061']
You make everyone on "your side" beet red with embarrassment every time you post something like this. Plus, I'm not sure it's the smartest thing to be spouting off about how much better you are then the people that are going to dictate the time you get peace and the amount of reps you end up paying.
[/quote]
He's their Penkala

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1302473936' post='2688052']


First, you can pull the "you're not sure NPO was not going to enter" card all the time you want. [b]I am sure.[/b] My leaders were fairly sure too when they took the decision they took. That said, and once again, the reasons why this started are irrelevant for the way it ends.
[/quote]

My point had little to do with why this war started, but rather the fact that you are acting surprised that your choices and actions are speaking louder than your propaganda/words, and are thus going to be a much more accurate reflection of how this war is remembered, and how your role in it is portrayed.

But by all means I will bite on the bolded. hell I have been asking Roq for 2 months now to put up or shut up with the proof on NPO's guarnateed entry. Now you are also claiming you are positive they were entering, so by all means I will extend the same offer to you.


[quote]
Second, this has a lot to do with pride sure, but it also has to do with not allowing the precedent of running for Peace mode to settle. If NPO wanted, this war would have been over 2 months ago.
[/quote]

When you try to set a precedent you should first make sure that you are also not guilty of the same thing you are rallying against. Case in point, tell MK to get the alliances in their mids out of PM that have been hiding there the entire war. Otherwise you are setting precedent all right, but it has nothing to do with peace mode.

[quote]
Third, it's my understanding - and as such, it might be wrong - that RoK threw their support behind the VE DoW on Polar and then pursued to turn around when the internal pressure kicked in. I am not exactly sure what it makes of them and their leaders, if weak or strong but stupid. Eitherway, they get more praise than they deserve.
[/quote]

And this also has zero to do with anything I posted, but thank you for making your opinion on RoK's approach to this war known.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1302475041' post='2688061']
You make everyone on "your side" beet red with embarrassment every time you post something like this. Plus, I'm not sure it's the smartest thing to be spouting off about how much better you are then the people that are going to dictate the time you get peace and the amount of reps you end up paying.
[/quote]
I mean better communities. Obviously, we don't have as much tech or infra or upper-tier nations that they have. I mean the quality of who we are, not who's going to be extorting cash from who.

And I don't just mean 'our side.' There are better alliances across the spectrum. RIA is better, RoK is better, even FAN is better (FAN actually is just about as great as you can be in this regard).

I just don't have respect for weak alliances who disband at the first sign of trouble. They're even worse than those who jump ship (MHA, Sparta, ODN, etc).

And the kicker is that they all re-formed under the watch of Pacifica, often under the direct protection of the hegemony of the time (GOONS, notably, reforming under the joint protection of Pacifica and Polaris). Allowing them to come back into the world was perhaps one of the bigger mistakes made by the old hegemony. Showing goodwill has always been a weakness of, well, of what is left of "our side," as this shattered corner of the web hasn't been any sort of a threat to the current hegemony for years. But alas, no good deed shall go unpunished, as they say.

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302478616' post='2688084']
I mean better communities. Obviously, we don't have as much tech or infra or upper-tier nations that they have. I mean the quality of who we are, not who's going to be extorting cash from who.

And I don't just mean 'our side.' There are better alliances across the spectrum. RIA is better, RoK is better, even FAN is better (FAN actually is just about as great as you can be in this regard).

I just don't have respect for weak alliances who disband at the first sign of trouble. They're even worse than those who jump ship (MHA, Sparta, ODN, etc).

And the kicker is that they all re-formed under the watch of Pacifica, often under the direct protection of the hegemony of the time (GOONS, notably, reforming under the joint protection of Pacifica and Polaris). Allowing them to come back into the world was perhaps one of the bigger mistakes made by the old hegemony. Showing goodwill has always been a weakness of, well, of what is left of "our side," as this shattered corner of the web hasn't been any sort of a threat to the current hegemony for years. But alas, no good deed shall go unpunished, as they say.
[/quote]
Goodwill? Is that the same goodwill that disbanded alliances?

[Lusitan]

[quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1302478445' post='2688083']
My point had little to do with why this war started, but rather the fact that you are acting surprised that your choices and actions are speaking louder than your propaganda/words, and are thus going to be a much more accurate reflection of how this war is remembered, and how your role in it is portrayed.

But by all means I will bite on the bolded. hell I have been asking Roq for 2 months now to put up or shut up with the proof on NPO's guarnateed entry. Now you are also claiming you are positive they were entering, so by all means I will extend the same offer to you.[/quote]

I am not exactly sure where we are acting surprised, please elaborate.

[quote]
When you try to set a precedent you should first make sure that you are also not guilty of the same thing you are rallying against. Case in point, tell MK to get the alliances in their mids out of PM that have been hiding there the entire war. Otherwise you are setting precedent all right, but it has nothing to do with peace mode.
[/quote]

I might be wrong, but from looking at MK's rankings, most of their nations in peace mode are nations who were brought down to those tiers after fighting. In regards to NPO precedent we're talking of nations who never exited peace mode. There's a slight conceptual difference even though you might not want to admit it.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302478616' post='2688084']
Showing goodwill has always been a weakness of, well, of what is left of "our side,"[/quote]
I do believe I asked you not to do that.

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1302479745' post='2688102']

I might be wrong, but from looking at MK's rankings, most of their nations in peace mode are nations who were brought down to those tiers after fighting. In regards to NPO precedent we're talking of nations who never exited peace mode. There's a slight conceptual difference even though you might not want to admit it.
[/quote]


I was talking about nations who never left PM.

Look harder.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1302479745' post='2688102']
I might be wrong, but from looking at MK's rankings, most of their nations in peace mode are nations who were brought down to those tiers after fighting. In regards to NPO precedent we're talking of nations who never exited peace mode. There's a slight conceptual difference even though you might not want to admit it.
[/quote]
That evil peace mode menace is really a terror to the good citizens of bob aren't they? I still have the flyers, posters and buttons I made to support speakerwire, but if your looking to take up his mantle then you have my axe. I'm not so certain on his views about the heinous neutral third party voice, what is your stance on this treacherous shameful entity?

Edited April 11, 2011 by William Bonney