Will your opinion of Pacifica or Polaris change after this war?

[alyster]

Will my opinion of Pacifica change? Hell no! Those evil baby eating monsters .... I them.

Will my opinion of Polar change after the war? I don't think so. I didn't like their actions in BiPolar war very much, but after that my opinion of them has been greatly improving. The war won't effect it. Polar is a good alliance.

Doomhouse? Opinion about MK and GOONS won't change much, nor VE, but I had way more respect for Umbrella before this war. That's gone now.

Edited February 9, 2011 by mikk206

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1297260428' post='2626925']
So that is why we were attacked, the 12 year olds were jealous.
[/quote]

ololol, who writes your material? We need to get in touch.

How does it feel though getting royally thrashed by (what you deem to be) 12 year olds?

Edited February 9, 2011 by SirWilliam

[zzzptm]

The current war, like all wars, contains revelations about alliances that either confirm or revise one's opinion of them.

Through this war, I learned to really respect BAPS for finally not getting curbstomped in a major war.

Seriously, hats off to you guys: you found the solution to end the beatdowns.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297260179' post='2626921']
Why would we need to change? The world moves around us, everybody talk about us, we are the reason of every world war, half of world hates us... If this isn't a sign of success I don't know what success is.
[/quote]


[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1297260428' post='2626925']
So that is why we were attacked, the 12 year olds were jealous. Why didn't they just say so.
[/quote]

This is why both of your alliances are in the situation you are currently in.

[TheListener]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1297209540' post='2626165']
Stop Grub from spouting off on the forums, and perhaps shut up some of their worst posters (I'm thinking D34th here.) At the very least, they can become respectable opponents.
[/quote]

This war has shown me the true colors of GATO, apparently it's common practice in GATO to censor your membership, I thought for sure you were the one alliance in this game (being truly Democratic) that would not have a member support the censorship of the general public. That apparently is not so. It's truly frustrating to see how the appearance GATO has tried to portray themselves with, has proven to be incredibly false.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1297265374' post='2627001']
This is why both of your alliances are in the situation you are currently in.
[/quote]

I dont see anything particularly evil in those statements? Are you alluding to their tone perchance?
Lack of kowtowing?
That, wont happen, and it would be silly to expect it: almost as silly as it would be to expect our opponents to be kowtowing.

edit: rephrase and clarify.
edit2: stupid comma

Edited February 9, 2011 by Alfred von Tirpitz

[The Catalyst]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1297209540' post='2626165']
The title is rather self-explanatory.

Personally I used to really like NpO. Sponge, Random, FF, Cookavich etc were genuinely cool. The problem, for me, was Grub. He used Karma as an opportunity to make some moralist posturing without doing any of the hard fighting, threatened a direct MADP partner of MK (while holding an MDoAP with MK, which really put MK in a bad position) and started throwing his weight around. My opinion of NpO slowly declined. Then in BiPolar he made a series of absolutely monumental errors which finally killed my opinion of the alliance. I mean, I'm not even a fan of TOP. Crymson, for example, is pretty !@#$@#$ horrible. But NpO shouldn't have broken their word to them. That's not really the problem though, if they'd simply screwed TOP over I wouldn't have really cared (although giving their word to let TOP hit MK was a dick move in the first place, considering NpO held a treaty with MK.) The problem was, well, pretty much every single action they took in BiPolar. Attacking \m/ in the first place was really stupid. I saw logs from Grub's discussions with his allies and it pretty much boiled down to 'if I don't go to war people won't take me seriously'. Well, going to war over an ego trip is an absolutely stupid idea. Especially as it put Ragnarok in a terrible position (RoK held treaties with both NpO and \m/.) And then honestly, proceeding to attack GOD, who had been preparing for years to fight Polar, was pretty !@#$@#$ stupid, particularly (as has been pointed out) it was Fark who was doing the real damage to NSO.

But while I could keep listing everything that Polar did which was stupid, I don't really need to. I've established that by the time that BiPolar ended, my good opinion of Polar was dead. When Penguin came to the throne, I eased up a bit, because he's a genuinely calm and rational and cool dude, but I was still left with the sense that NpO deserved to be rolled. Well, that has happened now, and my grudge with Polar has died with it. I mean, I'm not going to just start liking them, but they have an opportunity here for reform. Much as I like Random, for example, he's completely the wrong guy for emperor. Acknowledging that they went wrong in BiPolar would be another step forward (not that they ever would, they're a bit too proud for that.) Stop Grub from spouting off on the forums,[b] and perhaps shut up some of their worst posters (I'm thinking D34th here.) At the very least, they can become respectable opponents.[/b]

Onto Pacifica. I really hated these !@#$%^&*, and the whole 'we've switched emperor!' deal didn't really work with me, because I was wronged by Cortath personally. I'm rather disappointed I didn't get to nuke the $%&@ out of them in this war, but I'm sure there'll be other wars (I was going to join MK and help with the NPO front, but I decided to rebuild instead.) Personally, even though I can't stand NPO, I'll let up some of the hate after this war. It won't change my opinion of them or their culture, but I'll have had revenge, even if I didn't deal it out personally. If NPO will humble themselves and make apologies to FAN and GATO for what they did, then that would really help too. I'll always be distrustful of them, and I'll never like them, but I'll move on. Two years is a long time to hold a grudge after all.

I have also changed my opinion of what reps the Orders should receive. While I originally just wanted NPO to die, I think that a) it's kind of dickish to demand reps (or at least, massive reps, I'm sure I would live with myself if they paid some smaller amount) for an aggressive war and b) it would be best for the political situation if they got white peace, or something close to it. The Orders make good opponents after all.
[/quote]

i didnt like NpO when this started but i like them more now.
i dont like GATO because as far as ive seen all there people on the forums are up for complaining over minor points etc like on the R&R DoW about Reps that dont involve them.
i think GATO members should stop posting on the forums instead of NpO members..especially when D3ATH has awsome propaganda.

[D34th]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1297265374' post='2627001']
This is why both of your alliances are in the situation you are currently in.
[/quote]

I don't see how this make what I said less valid.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1297266476' post='2627011']
I dont see anything particularly evil in those statements? Are you alluding to their tone perchance?
Lack of kowtowing?
That, wont happen, and it would be silly to expect it: almost as silly as it would be to expect our opponents to be kowtowing.

edit: rephrase and clarify.
edit2: stupid comma
[/quote]

The 'ur just jealous' and 'cn needs the orders' shtick betrays the Orders' lack of ability to objectively analyze their own strengths and weaknesses (up until recently, it was far more evident in NPO than NpO, but this war is bringing it out in NpO as well). It's no coincidence that some of the most successful alliances around are spiritual successors or revivals of alliances that were once disbanded or destroyed. The Orders have an annoying habit of believing that the fact that they are descended from the 'Order' tradition grants them a kind of inherent superiority in both a real military/economic sense and more annoyingly, a moral sense.

[The Catalyst]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1297268119' post='2627033']
The 'ur just jealous' and 'cn needs the orders' shtick betrays the Orders' lack of ability to objectively analyze their own strengths and weaknesses (up until recently, it was far more evident in NPO than NpO, but this war is bringing it out in NpO as well). It's no coincidence that some of the most successful alliances around are spiritual successors or revivals of alliances that were once disbanded or destroyed. The Orders have an annoying habit of believing that the fact that they are descended from the 'Order' tradition grants them a kind of inherent superiority in both a real military/economic sense and more annoyingly, a moral sense.
[/quote]
well it would be no fun if the enemy were the same as you would it O_o

[Daimos]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1297214643' post='2626320']

As hard as it is for some people to believe, there are actually many, many new leaders who have joined our world since NPO and company has actually done anything to anyone. Look at it from the perspective of someone who joined our world and was recruited into NPO, (something NPO is very good aT) - oh lets just say in the past 300 days to be conservative.

They join a well organized and large group. The greatest alliance in the world (obviously, we're all in love with the first alliance we join, at least for a short time) and then - for NO reason at all (literally - remember, it's not *this* nations fault NPO was mean in the past) some evil group called DOOMHOUSE and friends attacks!

Regardless of whether or not the leaders of NPO are good or bad, they are politically intelligent. The politically intelligent thing to do in this situation for NPO is to milk it internally for all it's worth! And, as anyone who has been in a war knows, there is nothing more effective for uniting a group of people than joining together to fight off an attacker.

DOOMHOUSE, there is no doubt in my mind that you've done more to raise the loyalty the members of NPO feel to the organization and also keep the hate flames burning than anything one single emperor could manage. Might be a good plan to not make it worse through peace demands.

Yes, my view of NPO's enemies has changed. Either they are NOT as politically smart as I once imagined or continuing this circle of revenge is exactly what they want. Either way, NOT what I want to support.
[/quote]


This. I joined NPO without putting much thought of it. To me it was an alliance in a game I wanted to try. Did not know it’s history. I became curious of NPO’s history during the Karma War. I wanted to know the root of my opponents hate towards my alliance. I came to a conclusion that it was justified. If NPO did what they did in the past I would have protested and probably left but they have not done so since I joined so I stayed.

I respected MK’s crusade during the Karma war but this war changed my perception towards them. MK is just any other alliance not above hate, paranoia or vengeance.

My leadership does not need to convince me to fight. My nation was attacked unprovoked. No self respecting comrade is going to back down on this act of aggression. Not a single one.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1297268119' post='2627033']
The 'ur just jealous' and 'cn needs the orders' shtick betrays the Orders' lack of ability to objectively analyze their own strengths and weaknesses (up until recently, it was far more evident in NPO than NpO, but this war is bringing it out in NpO as well). It's no coincidence that some of the most successful alliances around are spiritual successors or revivals of alliances that were once disbanded or destroyed. The Orders have an annoying habit of believing that the fact that they are descended from the 'Order' tradition grants them a kind of inherent superiority in both a real military/economic sense and more annoyingly, a moral sense.
[/quote]
I would put it down to the fact that Polaris really does believe that no one can be shut down. It is common sense really, when one knows one cant be shut down, there is nothing to worry about, is there?

One is free to action one's wishes, much like the ones arrayed against Polaris today were free to act on their wishes [which of course is evident in the form of the current conflict]. It is not so much morality or some sense of inherited immunity due to what you refer to as the 'Order' tradition, it is simply the way things are. Try as you might, you wont shut Polaris down, the same way that try as it might Polaris cant shut anyone down.

What might seem to some to be an annoying display of a belief of inherent superiority or hubris is merely a sense of belief in one's own ability to pull through, regardless of the odds.

Of course, the fact remains that Polaris is one of the orders, there is no gainsaying the origin of the alliance. It is also one of the older alliances having experienced dizzying highs and equally dizzying lows [in term of fortunes], as such there is a sense of history there which the membership quiet enjoys and is proud of. To find that annoying, and to base one's decisions based on dislike of the other guy respecting his own history, is not really worthwhile or sensible. But of course, that is just my opinion.

Having seen history and historical perceptions/grudges darken the door of quiet a few alliances in my short-while here, and having seen them strive to overcome that in the face of preconceived notions and "lol zombie revival" or "omg they will bring back shark week" or "it would imply they got a full upgrade" or "/b/tard warmed over" or "lol \m/ 2.0" or not so long ago, "lolVOX" and "lolFAN", i think it is safe to say, nothing stays the same forever, but whatever change does come by, is always self initiated, never can it be forced. The harder you push at it, the more the recoil.

This also leads to the question, why want them to change? Why not let GGA be, or Invicta be, or UPN be? You have to go after them, you want war, sure, go ahead, wage war. Clothing it in the chicanery of, "they did not change", "they are still the same" or whatever, is just that, facetious talk. I mean, who the hell are you talking to? There are no individuals here, just a bunch of choirs, that everyone is preaching to. You preaching to your choir man, since th other choir cant hear you over the din their own preachers are making. The web is clear, the lines are clear. The numbers don't lie, barring extreme cowardice/ineptitude, higher NS is bound to win the field. It is the nature of this realm, its mathematical in nature. So who needs to be convinced? Who are you lot talking to?

The same is applicable to the appeasers or applogists, what the heck do you mean, when you say "we changed, you just cant see it". Seriously, Can it. You dont have to change, you in fact dont have to do !@#$. Just go on as you see fit.

Stormsend said it best, its cyclic, regardless of the salvos of rhetoric and words, the wheel will turn someday. It makes for an interesting ride, both going up, as well as going down. Only one thing is certain, you don't stay in the same space for long, since its always moving.


PS: CSM, that spiel is not @ you mang, its just.. something.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1297268119' post='2627033']
The 'ur just jealous' and 'cn needs the orders' shtick betrays the Orders' lack of ability to objectively analyze their own strengths and weaknesses (up until recently, it was far more evident in NPO than NpO, but this war is bringing it out in NpO as well). It's no coincidence that some of the most successful alliances around are spiritual successors or revivals of alliances that were once disbanded or destroyed. The Orders have an annoying habit of believing that the fact that they are descended from the 'Order' tradition grants them a kind of inherent superiority in both a real military/economic sense and more annoyingly, a moral sense.
[/quote]

Well said. Polaris is especially funny so far as the military superiority part of that goes. They seem to believe themselves a military power simply because they are an 'Order.' Some others, too, seem to believe that Polar is excellent at war simply because it is an 'Order.' In reality, Polaris is mediocre in a fight. Pacifica is better, but their strength has often come from sheer numbers rather than individual excellence.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Crymson

[cookavich]

Readers agree that I am still a genuinely cool person.

[zoskia]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1297265374' post='2627001']
This is why both of your alliances are in the situation you are currently in.
[/quote]

Fighting the VE?

I am not sad about fighting the VE.

[Van Hoo III]

Once you are rolled, all your sins are forgiven ... everyone knows that.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1297283225' post='2627187']
Once you are rolled, all your sins are forgiven ... everyone knows that.
[/quote]
I agree, that that's a silly argument.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Solaris

[flak attack]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1297227920' post='2626632']
Funny jokes only please.
[/quote]
That wasn't a joke. The NPO members I declared on actually reduced the amount of damage the CCC members I was fighting were able to do.

[zoskia]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1297283525' post='2627190']
I agree, that that's a silly argument.
[/quote]

Yeah, the lies of Impero Romano and the VE aren't a little bit more "true" after all the nukes the VE is receiving.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1297218839' post='2626444']
Honoring their karma surrender agreement did nothing to address the underlying hatred many alliances held for NPO. If NPO wanted to eck out a new image for themselves they needed to address the sins of their past. NPO did not. For better or worse. Their FAilure (get it, FA failure?) is complete. To say that the only way to address the outstanding issues was by degrading themselves is ridiculous, that is not how proper diplomacy works. It is not MK or FAN's responsibility to "get over it", NPO had to provide a reason for them to get over it. They did not.
[/quote]
Setting Fan aside, as I believe they are the only ones to have legitimate reason to be all over NPO, I have to ask, why did MK and the multitudes of other alliances give NPO peace during the Karma war? If they still harbored anger wouldn't have been better to keep pounding on NPO until they felt avenged? How many times must an alliance' nations be wrecked before they have paid for past sins? Should we, as members of this planet just plan on a yearly winter offensive against the Orders in perpetuity? If so, can you arrange it next year so only the Orders and those who feel the need to continue their vengeance are involved and leave the rest of us out of it? Sure we all like war, but why not let the rest of us off so we can go about making our own wars that leave us feeling less slimy.

[uaciaut]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1297259326' post='2626915']
I am interested in this assertion, often quoted as a fact, that the Orders must change. Why? Explain please why the alliances that actually give the world actual balance would go changing anything.

I am intrigued by the notion that nothing is happening, therefore we need something to happen coupled with Orders doing things that make things happen adding up to a bad thing. I literally shake my head when people whine about me attacking \m/ causing all sorts of issues across the treaty web. You simply don't know what you want or are too dense to see it when it is presented to you. Hardly so very surprising.

Some of you can not see what is plainly in front of you, it is largely the reason OOC I think most of you are a little wet behind the ears /OOC.

I can not see Polaris changing to be bottom feeding scum suckers to fit in better with your version of how the world looks. We are what we are, both to spite you and in spite of you and we wont be anything but Polaris no matter how many times you go to the same dry old well.

You love to hate us, all that love has to be a good thing?
[/quote]

I'm confused about some !@#$ but maybe it's my ADHD-ridden brain that doesn't makes some connections i guess.

I don't see how the orders brought balance, or at least in the way i'm trying to picture balance in this game. The whole existance of WUT, Q and generally the tendency of the orders to create huge blocs with which they could impose their views does not mean balance to me. Actually i'm a lot more certain that what we're doing right now will bring more balance to the game because once this is over there will be a big opposition that will want us dead and hopefully put some real effort into being decent this time around.

I don't have anything against the core principles behind the orders, hell it was your thesis that gave birth at times or simply fueled an antithesis and made wars and thus the game more interesting. And the fact that the orders managed to do so well for so long is proof enough that it worked. But that has nothing to do with how you interact with an environment that demands change and yet where people hold on to grudges and preconceptions so often (and often rightfully so tbh :v). Adapting, changing, trying to make amends and actually using diplomacy to try to understand why people think in a certain way of you and how you can change that (rather than "i liek caek") is imho something that should be necessary in CN. You can be volatile while keeping to your beliefs just fine really but people should really try to put effort into this because it is a dog eat dog world and unless you do !@#$ you will most likely die.

I also don't understand the relation between you attacking m/ and us not knowing what we want.

Anyway most of my qualms have always been with NPO and the way their attitude reflected, i actually liked NpO under es and up to bipolar.


[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297260179' post='2626921']
Why would we need to change? The world moves around us, everybody talk about us, we are the reason of every world war, half of world hates us... If this isn't a sign of success I don't know what success is.
[/quote]

Learning from your mistakes is a sign of success. Where you are at this point isn't exactly a position of great success, take a guess why.

Edited February 9, 2011 by uaciaut

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1297285203' post='2627210']
I'm confused about some !@#$ but maybe it's my ADHD-ridden brain that doesn't makes some connections i guess.

I don't see how the orders brought balance, or at least in the way i'm trying to picture balance in this game. The whole existance of WUT, Q and generally the tendency of the orders to create huge blocs with which they could impose their views does not mean balance to me. Actually i'm a lot more certain that what we're doing right now will bring more balance to the game because once this is over there will be a big opposition that will want us dead and hopefully put some real effort into being decent this time around.

I don't have anything against the core principles behind the orders, hell it was your thesis that gave birth at times or simply fueled an antithesis and made wars and thus the game more interesting. And the fact that the orders managed to do so well for so long is proof enough that it worked. But that has nothing to do with how you interact with an environment that demands change and yet where people hold on to grudges and preconceptions so often (and often rightfully so tbh :v). Adapting, changing, trying to make amends and actually using diplomacy to try to understand why people think in a certain way of you and how you can change that (rather than "i liek caek") is imho something that should be necessary in CN. You can be volatile while keeping to your beliefs just fine really but people should really try to put effort into this because it is a dog eat dog world and unless you do !@#$ you will most likely die.

I also don't understand the relation between you attacking m/ and us not knowing what we want.

Anyway most of my qualms have always been with NPO and the way their attitude reflected, i actually liked NpO under es and up to bipolar.




Learning from your mistakes is a sign of success. Where you are at this point isn't exactly a position of great success, take a guess why.
[/quote]

What drivel, I expect more from you. Balance is a simple enough concept really. It is possible you seek a world where everyone is friendly to each other but manages to find an excuse to have a war with someone and then we all shake hands and do it over again to someone else? I am not sure what you want but I want a world where I can hate someone with a passion and maintain that hate for inexplicable reasons over eons because that is my choice.

OOC: I actually have a lot of people across all alliances I talk to regularly and I am very friendly with at war or not, but IC I hate who ever my enemy is with a passion, exhibit all the hate as publicly as possible and with as much enthusiasm as possible.... because that is the GAME we are playing. This is RP of a political simulator. I really do think some of you are confused about what we are doing here.

If I try to do X, you try to resist X IC if you so wish and vice versa. I do not ever see a need for me to play nicely with the other children if that is not my chosen path. If you were remotely interesting you would roll GPA for contributing nothing to the GAME and involve them against their will but you are focussed on bringing down the Orders... you do make me laugh though. /OOC

Polaris will be here when time stops, some of you are just going to have to deal with that. Polaris will continue to play a part in the balance of the world, despite your best endeavours to neuter actual interesting politics in favour of your stupid little fan club ideal of the world. In summary, you have brought it, think carefully about where you are going with it. We have.

DIE

[Solaris]

[quote name='zoskia' timestamp='1297284710' post='2627201']
Yeah, the lies of Impero Romano and the VE aren't a little bit more "true" after all the nukes the VE is receiving.
[/quote]
What lies?


You can keep repeating your party line and trying to paint us in a light that's incompatible with reality. It is, after all, probably the best chance you perceive yourselves to have under currend conditions, but just because you want something to be, does not make it so.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Solaris

[MrMuz]

Heh, I have longer opinions, but nobody cares anyway, so here's a short one.

NpO:
Before Bipolar.. massive respect for them. I viewed them as one of the top 3 open membership alliances.

During the whole bipolar act.. lost respect for Polaris' diplomatic ability. I blamed Grub for that. Expected them to pick up with the new Emperors. The new treaties and how they treated some of their allies were quite poor. I still thought they had a good military, because they took a lot of alliances in war

During this war, well, I'm biased, but I lost all remaining respect for their credibility. Eventually they'll have to shut up and actually fight a war. I'd go out and guess that their war guides only say "buy troops, click nuke button, click CM button".

The NS ratio was only 1:1.2 against Polar, it was no curbstomp. Any PB or SF alliance could deal with such odds and pull a victory.

I guess I still think they're one of the better economic nations now. Let's see how they rebuild.

I've also started disliking them more and more this war as their propaganda attempts have been trying to make the war a personal affair. I do like a few of the opponents I've faced in battle. None of them seem like they want to fight. They just build defensively, even when on a 1 on 1 battle, launching only cruise missiles (when they have nukes). I don't even want NpO to pay reps, it seems like it'd burden their loyal members, while leaving their gov free to act as they wish.


NPO:
A lot of respect for them before a certain embassy incident last year. Didn't trust them, but still feared their military, economic, and diplomatic skill nonetheless.

Slowly lost that respect after terms. They did poorly diplomatically. The infra boost at the start of leaving terms was a cute trick, but their economic inefficiency was so so poor, it's as if they were forced to pay twice as much reps as they did. They had horrible nation builds, and faced up against CN's top military alliances, no surprise they melted away.

Gained some respect for them for their "Bring it" response during the Doomhouse strike. Lost it when they actually cancelled that response and proceeded to whine about the various poles. Yes, it was a bipolar world. SF/PB/C&G held one pole, and NPO was the other. It was perhaps a grab to solidify power.

I'm actually very interested in seeing how they recover from it, it would make all the difference in the world. It is good to see NPO members goofing around a bit during a war and not just write boring propaganda, and I hope they mingle a bit more after the war.


STA:
I think Tyga and Pez know how to write, but don't like the direction they're going. Slightly annoying, but great fighters from what I've heard. So far, STA were the only ones who know how to coordinate (I guess my opponents in NpO were just [i]that[/i] bad) and very nice warchests. Classy fighters and posters, doing none of the sleazy stuff NpO have been up to.

Nordreich:
They've played every aspect nicely. I've admired their economic build and their propaganda before the war, and they've done every aspect of this war very nicely.

GOONS:
Deserve quite a bit of respect. They were ganked and they took it well. I tend to be skeptical of how tech raiders hold out in a real war, but they did great. It doesn't get more curbstompish than fighting 11 or so alliances at once, one of them being a big, ancient, sanctioned one.

All those tiny alliances on GOONS:
Paper tigers. Overgunned, they filled GOONS slots to the point where GOONS could almost comfortably fight a defensive war. I don't know whose idea it was, but it was a dumb one. If they wanted to stay in peace mode, they could've hit MK and Umbrella as well, but all jumped on GOONS and it looked so, so bad on the big war charts.

[bzelger]

[quote name='MrMuz' timestamp='1297289572' post='2627277']
STA:
I think Tyga and Pez know how to write[/quote]
Are you implying I'm illiterate? [img]http://siberiantigeralliance.com/forums/Smileys/classic/colbert.gif[/img]