Will your opinion of Pacifica or Polaris change after this war?

[Dagrr]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297319449' post='2627785']
No, we won't. We're prepared to go for the long haul and not repeat that mistake. The biggest mistake made in Karma was the giving up of the peace mode exit pre-term.
[/quote]

I hope you try. I just want to see how your side tries to spin it into a positive PR victory. Perhaps another long winded Archon declaration about how Pacifica will forever be a threat to freedom loving nations everywhere?

Congratulations, you are almost as evil as we are. There are only two remaining steps. Follow through with your threats of permawar and then stop caring about what people think of you. Then your journey to the dark side will be complete.

[crushtania]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1297322273' post='2627808']
What. MHA was never a consideration in any way for NPO. Sure the people they sent over were doing a good job, they didn't want anything from you though. Why would they when your performance this war confirmed all suspicions? Also, you held a treaty with them for long enough.
[/quote]

Respectfully, I beg to differ. Unless you represent the NPO or the MHA you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1297312960' post='2627683']
[color="#FF0000"]The Orders will always be the same. If they get peace, they will once again consort in their little click of alliances that follow them like ducklings, and attempt the same little tricks and expect different results. Hence, I support Perma-War. Either the Orders will disband, or they will change the way they do buisness. If neither happens, we will have a nearly identical war in another year, over stupid reasons, and over the same grudges. That's boring.[/color]
[/quote]

I think we will still be fighting this same war one year from now actually. I certainly hope so.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Charles Stuart

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1297264856' post='2626994']
ololol, who writes your material? We need to get in touch.

How does it feel though getting royally thrashed by (what you deem to be) 12 year olds?
[/quote]

Wait, you aren't 12? Im so sorry.

Edit: meh, double post

Edited February 10, 2011 by Charles Stuart

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1297323904' post='2627817']
I hope you try. I just want to see how your side tries to spin it into a positive PR victory. Perhaps another long winded Archon declaration about how Pacifica will forever be a threat to freedom loving nations everywhere?
[/quote]

I don't think you get it, unlike the vast majority of your previous victims, The Orders are just that unpopular. Nobody cares to save you even if they disagree with us. The vast majority of the criticism aimed at us by the independent groups is always ended with the after thought of some variation of
"but you know what? Its NPO/NpO, so $%&@ em anyway."

[quote]
Congratulations, you are almost as evil as we are. There are only two remaining steps. Follow through with your threats of permawar and then stop caring about what people think of you. Then your journey to the dark side will be complete.
[/quote]

Still resorting to the "you are as bad as us" argument I see. It kind of just proves my point.

Also we stopped caring what you and yours thought or said some years ago when we learned you never speak anything worth listening to.

I leave you with a thought to consider. When a man commits murder he is a villain. When the State executes that man, it is justice. The act is the same, ending a life, but the reactions to the act change drastically depending on who it happens to.

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297333975' post='2627871']
I don't think you get it, unlike the vast majority of your previous victims, The Orders are just that unpopular. Nobody cares to save you even if they disagree with us. The vast majority of the criticism aimed at us by the independent groups is always ended with the after thought of some variation of
"but you know what? Its NPO/NpO, so $%&@ em anyway."[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297333975' post='2627871']Still resorting to the "you are as bad as us" argument I see. It kind of just proves my point.

Also we stopped caring what you and yours thought or said some years ago when we learned you never speak anything worth listening to.

I leave you with a thought to consider. When a man commits murder he is a villain. When the State executes that man, it is justice. The act is the same, ending a life, but the reactions to the act change drastically depending on who it happens to.
[/quote]

Couldn't disagree more. Aside from installing viceroys, what has your "side" not done (or threatened to do, you're still young so we'll take your word for it) that NPO did that was so horrible?

And as for the last part. Capital punishment is still murder. It is encompassed by a cloak of "justice," but ultimately is still murder, and the state is still a villain and a subject of blinding revenge.

[Branimir]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1297312960' post='2627683']That's boring.[/quote]
The Orders can not help you, for you being a boring bunch. That is on you.

Lets reflect.

What happened during the NEW thing, when a new war with new sides could have been fought?
People chickened out.

Who declared a war on an Order for no reason then we dont like you? And on the other on a set up?
People on your side.

As said, we can not help you for being boring. Btw., perma-war is cool with me, be sure you have what it takes for it.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Branimir

[Dagrr]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297333975' post='2627871']
I don't think you get it, unlike the vast majority of your previous victims, The Orders are just that unpopular. Nobody cares to save you even if they disagree with us. The vast majority of the criticism aimed at us by the independent groups is always ended with the after thought of some variation of
"but you know what? Its NPO/NpO, so $%&@ em anyway."
[/quote]

That's fine. I'm just going to disregard the fact that we haven't had any "victims" for two years since its already been argued to death. We have our allies on our side, the rest of the pieces may fall as they may. The one thing this war has taught me is that people will never "get over it." It is all a little ridiculous, we've all probably paid reps to someone we now call a friend at this point, but at the same time, our selective memory chooses to highlight some events more than others. At least it is if you've been a part of this world for as long or longer than I have.


[quote]
Still resorting to the "you are as bad as us" argument I see. It kind of just proves my point.

Also we stopped caring what you and yours thought or said some years ago when we learned you never speak anything worth listening to.

I leave you with a thought to consider. When a man commits murder he is a villain. When the State executes that man, it is justice. The act is the same, ending a life, but the reactions to the act change drastically depending on who it happens to.
[/quote]

I actually said you "are [i]not[/i] as bad as us." Not yet anyway.

This brings up another point, if you stopped caring what we think years ago, why should we "change" even more as your side so eloquently brings up time and time again? Because Doom House attacked out of the blue and tries to exert its will upon us? Frankly, I am going to "change" in reaction to this, from one of those "peaceful" Pacificans who joined after Karma into something else.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1297323904' post='2627817']
I hope you try. I just want to see how your side tries to spin it into a positive PR victory. Perhaps another long winded Archon declaration about how Pacifica will forever be a threat to freedom loving nations everywhere?

Congratulations, you are almost as evil as we are. There are only two remaining steps. Follow through with your threats of permawar and then stop caring about what people think of you. Then your journey to the dark side will be complete.
[/quote]

We're as evil as you? I thought you'd changed and were the good guys now

Back on topic however:
I have never liked NPO since the time I first dealt with them dating back to when I seized control of the Anubian state. They told me to get my first alliance off "their sphere" which isn't a great start to say the least. After this encounter I started paying more attention to what was happening globally, I never spoke up or sided with any particular alliance instead I sat, watched and learned how the world worked and how the top dog went about its business. Everything I saw from them and their membership put me right off them. The mindless loyalty; the unjustified sense of superiority; the terrible propaganda; the inability to admit when they're wrong. All of these delightful traits and when the !@#$ hits the fan for them, do they attempt to justify their arrogance and their egos? No, they do as they did in Karma; They hide.

I cannot abide alliances like this.

Polar on the other hand I don't care either way for.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Dagrr]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1297355613' post='2628023']
We're as evil as you? I thought you'd changed and were the good guys now
[/quote]

Someone has to be evil. I just think we are better at it. Being the good guys is horribly boring and too moralistic for my tastes at this point. Plus you have to make outlandish statements about how you respect someone when you really don't. The fact that some of the opposition's gov is still desperately clawing up to the top of the moral highground indicates to me that you haven't become as evil as we are. I simply outlined the two steps you need to take if you want to continue to up that path.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1297356218' post='2628032']
Someone has to be evil. I just think we are better at it. Being the good guys is horribly boring and too moralistic for my tastes at this point. Plus you have to make outlandish statements about how you respect someone when you really don't. The fact that some of the opposition's gov is still desperately clawing up to the top of the moral highground indicates to me that you haven't become as evil as we are. I simply outlined the two steps you need to take if you want to continue to up that path.
[/quote]

We do not require the advice of Pacificans, we will make and are perfectly capable of making our own path.

Thanks for the advice though!

Edited February 10, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse

[SpoiL]

Paying reps for a war-for-no-reason.. Good one.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1297355613' post='2628023']
The mindless loyalty;
[/quote]

hate to break it to you but thats on both sides not just ours or theirs

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='Chickenzilla' timestamp='1297209956' post='2626173']
I think the NPO should just get every bit of reps they've ever given someone else before. So a few viceroys, two years of perma war, force people out of pace mode, delete wonders and improvements, some tech and money, oh and to cancel all treaties. Maybe a disbandment if I'm feeling salty.
[/quote]
I wouldn't be suprised if you let them go with white peace...

[LOLtex]

I'm pretty indifferent to Pacifica but Polaris? Nope. They're still the lying, backstabbing, double crossing terrible-at-war-and-peace alliance they always have been. They're especially terrible at war though. I do hope they get surrender terms after everyone that's fighting them has had their fill. They could even pay reps and rebuild while they do it for a few months. Then when they're done and finally at peace, we will smash them. And smash them good. There won't be reps though, we'll be taking our reps from your nations instead. Then we'll install Crymson as NpO's viceroy. Then we'll ask Sponge to post a video on youtube of him dancing (preferably a salsa or tango) over Polaris' own grave, and Grub will have to write a 2000 word essay on why snakes are such effective predators in grasslands.

Yeah, that about does it I think.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='LOLtex' timestamp='1297362998' post='2628138']
I'm pretty indifferent to Pacifica but Polaris? Nope. They're still the lying, backstabbing, double crossing terrible-at-war-and-peace alliance they always have been. They're especially terrible at war though. I do hope they get surrender terms after everyone that's fighting them has had their fill. They could even pay reps and rebuild while they do it for a few months. Then when they're done and finally at peace, we will smash them. And smash them good. There won't be reps though, we'll be taking our reps from your nations instead. Then we'll install Crymson as NpO's viceroy. Then we'll ask Sponge to post a video on youtube of him dancing (preferably a salsa or tango) over Polaris' own grave, and Grub will have to write a 2000 word essay on why snakes are such effective predators in grasslands.

Yeah, that about does it I think.
[/quote]

two memes come to mind..

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1297356218' post='2628032']
Someone has to be evil. I just think we are better at it. Being the good guys is horribly boring and too moralistic for my tastes at this point. Plus you have to make outlandish statements about how you respect someone when you really don't. The fact that some of the opposition's gov is still desperately clawing up to the top of the moral highground indicates to me that you haven't become as evil as we are. I simply outlined the two steps you need to take if you want to continue to up that path.
[/quote]

Nope. What you're talking about is PRETENDING to be the good guy.

Actually being a good guy is a huge challenge. It takes diplomatic skill, personal self-control and (if one wants to have a nation of at least some consequence) the ability to be very, very selective in picking your battles. It's not really required to make outlandish statements about respect when one doesn't have it. Just don't say anything.

Also, it has nothing to do with being "moralistic" (which I see as preachy at best - pretending at worst), but with developing and maintaining a set of personal ethics and then keeping to them. This is different than imposing the same ethics on anyone else.

[Dagrr]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1297364340' post='2628161']
Actually being a good guy is a huge challenge. It takes diplomatic skill, personal self-control and (if one wants to have a nation of at least some consequence) the ability to be very, very selective in picking your battles. It's not really required to make outlandish statements about respect when one doesn't have it. Just don't say anything.
[/quote]

This entire statement is preachy and has a side dish of infra hugging. It doesn't take any skill to use selective honesty. Picking your battles doesn't make you a good guy. You don't fight the battles you can't win, which would make you a pragmatist. What would you do if someone you disliked asked you if you respected them? Just don't say anything?

I don't really have a problem if you rule that way, but I don't see how that would make you "good." More like a shade of gray still clinging to the glory days when you actually believed in what you were doing. Trying to be a straight out "good guy" is inherently stupid and was part of the reason why Pacifica held power for so long.


[quote]
Also, it has nothing to do with being "moralistic" (which I see as preachy at best - pretending at worst), but with developing and maintaining a set of personal ethics and then keeping to them. This is different than imposing the same ethics on anyone else.
[/quote]

As a side note, we should probably work on a global community consensus on the definition of a moralist because I think that is awfully close to what it means to be a moralist. Minus the imposing ethics on other people of course, which is exactly what some of you people seem to have your hearts on. Make Pacifica kinder and more cuddly! Then they will have changed!

Edited February 10, 2011 by Henry

[lebubu]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1297356218' post='2628032']
Someone has to be evil. I just think we are better at it.
[/quote]

You're not.

[D34th]

[quote name='LOLtex' timestamp='1297362998' post='2628138']
I'm pretty indifferent to Pacifica but Polaris? Nope. They're still the lying, backstabbing, double crossing terrible-at-war-and-peace alliance they always have been. They're especially terrible at war though. I do hope they get surrender terms after everyone that's fighting them has had their fill. They could even pay reps and rebuild while they do it for a few months. Then when they're done and finally at peace, we will smash them. And smash them good. There won't be reps though, we'll be taking our reps from your nations instead. Then we'll install Crymson as NpO's viceroy. Then we'll ask Sponge to post a video on youtube of him dancing (preferably a salsa or tango) over Polaris' own grave, and Grub will have to write a 2000 word essay on why snakes are such effective predators in grasslands.

Yeah, that about does it I think.
[/quote]

You sir, are a dreamer.

[NewPoseidon]

I respect the NpO membership for it's fighting ability. But overall it's membership and gov are downright insulting. Their refusal to admit the obvious makes the game less entertaining.

I think I'm pretty neutral in regards to Pacifica.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='NewPoseidon' timestamp='1297370827' post='2628250']
I respect the NpO membership for it's fighting ability. But overall it's membership and gov are downright insulting. Their refusal to admit the obvious makes the game less entertaining.

I think I'm pretty neutral in regards to Pacifica.
[/quote]

i stated that the ve ive fought sucks compared to fok. isnt that stating the obvious??

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1297353704' post='2628004']
That's fine. I'm just going to disregard the fact that we haven't had any "victims" for two years since its already been argued to death. We have our allies on our side, the rest of the pieces may fall as they may. The one thing this war has taught me is that people will never "get over it." It is all a little ridiculous, we've all probably paid reps to someone we now call a friend at this point, but at the same time, our selective memory chooses to highlight some events more than others. At least it is if you've been a part of this world for as long or longer than I have.
[/quote]

This is part of your problem, you think you can hand wave the past away just because it happened X amount of time ago without actually doing anything to directly address it. This only works if you have done something that is demonstratively different from your previous history, which of course you haven't done.



[quote]
This brings up another point, if you stopped caring what we think years ago, why should we "change" even more as your side so eloquently brings up time and time again? Because Doom House attacked out of the blue and tries to exert its will upon us? Frankly, I am going to "change" in reaction to this, from one of those "peaceful" Pacificans who joined after Karma into something else.
[/quote]

Demonstrating change would make us care again, but after years of watching the same people post the same crap we've realized that you just aren't worth listening too.

Also the excuse that you joined after means squat, when you join an alliance you take on its history. Your personal history is subsumed by your alliances history, when you identify as not just you, but a member of your alliance what your alliance has done even before you joined is now a part of your identity.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1297353181' post='2627999']
Couldn't disagree more. Aside from installing viceroys, what has your "side" not done (or threatened to do, you're still young so we'll take your word for it) that NPO did that was so horrible? [/quote]

A few things come immediately to mind.

They havent attacked a peaceful, neutral alliance knowing it was in no way even capable of posing a threat to them.

They havent attacked an alliance that was demilitarised, under terms, and under their protection at the time.

<ooc>They havent attacked an alliance based on assertions of a completely OOC nature. </ooc>

Anyone that thinks that the loose grouping of alliances which hold the balance of power at the moment is equivelant to the old hegemony between GWIII and Karma is massively deluded and/or ignorant.

That said, certain specific alliances in that group are already stepping over lines, and the overall grouping certainly is showing danger signs of going down that road.

[LOLtex]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1297369824' post='2628233']
You sir, are a dreamer.
[/quote]

That's pretty much the point.