The Easter Sunday Accords

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Timeline' date='05 April 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1270444541' post='2248683']
As to the number games, well at the start of the war, the numbers was on TOP's side, but you would not know about the start of the war, well becuase you fail to look at the bigger picture, TOP believed that they had the support of NpO and her allies therefor giving TOP the numbers.

Yet more mindless, and fact less drivel (childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle.) coming from a failhalla member, when will they start to educate their members on the actions within BoB, NPO are no longer here to hold your hand.
[/quote]

That is objectively wrong. We were always at a strength disadvantage, even with NpO and friends. In fact, the disadvantage was what prompted the strike. We believed it was the only way to pull victory from what would have been a statistical deficit. Tactics > the sum of the forces. Obviously, you guys knew that lesson better than anyone and it was foolish of us to trust polar and intercede on their behalf.

This discussion has been made several times over the past 2 months, and this is not the time nor the place to rehash them. But if you are going to attack someone for "mindless, and fact less drivel" you should make sure that you have your facts straight before making such a charge.

Again it was a good fight and that is what this announcement is about.

[D34th]

I like to see that people decided to left Gre alone in their non-sense.

Congrats on Peace.

[Devilyn Caster]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 April 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1270444537' post='2248682']
[color="#0000FF"]What I want to know is why DF is receiving 23k tech? Honestly, I really doubt they contributed much to the war, and they had no treaties to any of the defending alliances. War profiteering via bandwagon jumping is not something that should be encouraged.[/color]
[/quote]

Pretty sure Dark Fist is tied to FoB via NOIR.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Denial' date='05 April 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1270445318' post='2248708']
Comparaing absolute reparations to judge the burden of reparations is undeniably dishonest. For example, Alliance A possesses 200k technology at the conclusion of a war and is obligated via peace settlement to make a payment of 100k technology. On the other hand, Alliance B possesses 60k technology at the conclusion of a war and is obligated via peace settlement to make a payment of 45k technology. Alliance A clearly has the highest amount of technology to pay in absolute numbers, but it constitutes only 50% of their end-of-war technology. Alliance B, while having to pay significantly less technology in absolute terms, has a much higher burden, as 45k technology represents 75% of their final technology. Any comparison of reparations extractions must primarily take into account the capacity of the surrendering alliance to make payments.
[/quote]

Ah, so TOP is alliance A and DAWN is alliance B? I get it.

[Yuurei]

Peace in our time!

I'm glad to see this war finally come to a close.

o/ Athens
o/ C&G

[KingEd]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='05 April 2010 - 05:36 AM' timestamp='1270442167' post='2248562']
Hi. Surely you shouldn't be worrying about us already, you and SF just secured your political dominance for the foreseeable future. Enjoy your time at the top, it's good to be king.
[/quote]

You would know.

[Starcraftmazter]

This war was very fun to begin with. Through the entire month, it was quite exciting. After that it turned into a boring chore. I for one welcome a much overdue end to this conflict.

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='05 April 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1270445723' post='2248722']
You chained in offensively through your treaty with Aircastle into a curbstomp, forgive me if I and everyone else isn't crying over your lost tech
[/quote]

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about - not that anyone in DF cares what your's or anyone else's opinion on us getting reps is anyway. And lol @ RV being incapable of reading.

[Denial]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='05 April 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1270446098' post='2248733']
Ah, so TOP is alliance A and DAWN is alliance B? I get it.
[/quote]
Sure, why not.

[bigwoody]

On a related note, well done to those who chose the avenue of white peace. It is certainly noted.

[Prime minister Johns]

Thank Admin this entire affair is over at last.

o/ peace

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Denial' date='05 April 2010 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1270446513' post='2248747']
Sure, why not.
[/quote]

Thanks, I just need something to conceptualize variables. Math and Lord Curzon are not friends

[flak attack]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='05 April 2010 - 01:39 AM' timestamp='1270445928' post='2248728']
That is objectively wrong. We were always at a strength disadvantage, even with NpO and friends.
[/quote]
Actually, you were in better shape than you thought. I believe Ronin, Gre and MHA were going to be neutral, DT was threatening to declare on both sides, and you had NpO, STA, NV, Genesis, 1TF, UPN and CCC in addition to what you had in the CnG-TOP war, with NoR and Silence still up in the air to the best of my knowledge.

[Skippy]

Glad to see peace, but once again its pretty sad to see those same alliances feeding off reps, I see Sparta in there *again,* and DF, well I expected them to try to scavenge as much as possible. Oh well, some things don't change. The only alliances deserving of reps were those in the C&G...

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 April 2010 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1270444537' post='2248682']
[color="#0000FF"]What I want to know is why DF is receiving 23k tech? Honestly, I really doubt they contributed much to the war, and they had no treaties to any of the defending alliances. War profiteering via bandwagon jumping is not something that should be encouraged.[/color]
[/quote]

That was my thoughts exactly, I believe they entered through their treaty with Aircastle, who had enough sense to agree to the cessation of hostilities through white peace.

[Sceptor o Sordidness]

Peace at last, may the peace last.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Skippy' date='05 April 2010 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1270446903' post='2248761']
Glad to see peace, but once again its pretty sad to see those same alliances feeding off reps, I see Sparta in there *again,* and DF, well I expected them to try to scavenge as much as possible. Oh well, some things don't change. The only alliances deserving of reps were those in the C&G...
[/quote]
I don't think we will ever see a war without bandwagoners looking to loot some blood money. History will be the judge of these reps, I suppose.

It is encouraging, though, to see some take a better path.

[Letum]

[quote name='Denial' date='05 April 2010 - 06:28 AM' timestamp='1270445318' post='2248708']
Comparaing absolute reparations to judge the burden of reparations is undeniably dishonest. For example, Alliance A possesses 200k technology at the conclusion of a war and is obligated via peace settlement to make a payment of 100k technology. On the other hand, Alliance B possesses 60k technology at the conclusion of a war and is obligated via peace settlement to make a payment of 45k technology. Alliance A clearly has the highest amount of technology to pay in absolute numbers, but it constitutes only 50% of their end-of-war technology. Alliance B, while having to pay significantly less technology in absolute terms, has a much higher burden, as 45k technology represents 75% of their final technology. Any comparison of reparations extractions must primarily take into account the capacity of the surrendering alliance to make payments.
[/quote]

Ah, I see you have switched from making an argument on the basis of inflation, to one of the basis of size. A wise choice. I am glad that, by omission, you have tacitly accepted my conclusive rebuttal of any inflationary argument.

I would make a further suggestion, and say that you might want to switch from arguing about proportion of total tech to size, as the former has little effect on an alliance's ability to pay, and consequently the burden placed upon them. The nations in question would be, rather readily, able to fund a constant output of full slots of tech whether they started from 10,000 or 1,000. Therefore, absolute amounts would be very relevant within the framework in question, and even more so after your claims of some magical inflation have been discredited. In fact, it would be the proportion of total tech argument that would be the most dishonest, as it would imply that a tech-rich alliance would face less of a burden giving a similar amount of tech away than a tech-poor alliance. That is not true: it would cost the same to replace the lost tech no matter how high of a starting point you were left with.

[quote]
As for the remainder of your post, where you predictably include a mention of NPO's reparations (what's a Letum post without it?), no one denied that the burden on Pacifica was high. That was the intention of the peace terms, given that Pacifica was the lynchpin of the Hegemony and had conducted a war of aggression backed by a dubious casus belli. How exactly was that in any way relevant to our discussion, anyway? We get it, Pacifica is working assiduously to be seen as the poor victim of a world that is out to get them, but there's a time and a place for your tired propaganda.
[/quote]

If you will permit me once again to copy your writing style, thank you for your predictable attempt to portray the New Pacific Order as some dishonest bogeyman (what's a Denial post without it?). I am also glad that you have admitted that harshness and justification are two separate concepts, which was part of my original argument. I am not quite sure why you would see the need to include a rather irrelevant attempt to repeat your justifications for the Karma war, as no attempt to call them into question or start a new debate over an issue that has been beaten to death has existed. I am sure that you are working quite assiduously to continue an unnecessary and irrational grudge, though I am not quite sure for what reason that may be. Perhaps you interpreted my attempt to argue against the logic of inflation as some personal slight - the lack of any attempt to protect that discredited argument would support that, though I am loathe to jump to that assumption at this point. Nevertheless, I wish you the best, and hope that you will cease your own tired attempts against us. You won, and then you won again; get over it already.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Letum

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='flak attack' date='05 April 2010 - 01:51 AM' timestamp='1270446675' post='2248756']
Actually, you were in better shape than you thought. I believe Ronin, Gre and MHA were going to be neutral, DT was threatening to declare on both sides, and you had NpO, STA, NV, Genesis, 1TF, UPN and CCC in addition to what you had in the CnG-TOP war, with NoR and Silence still up in the air to the best of my knowledge.
[/quote]

iirc there was a point in the planning at which we discovered MHA and Gre were heading to your side. Now, how that was confirmed I don't know, but I believe that was the point at which we discovered we were at a strength disadvantage. It was definitely close, don't get me wrong. But I'm sure the assessments we were working with are out there somewhere.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Denial' date='04 April 2010 - 10:28 PM' timestamp='1270445318' post='2248708']
Comparaing absolute reparations to judge the burden of reparations is undeniably dishonest. For example, Alliance A possesses 200k technology at the conclusion of a war and is obligated via peace settlement to make a payment of 100k technology. On the other hand, Alliance B possesses 60k technology at the conclusion of a war and is obligated via peace settlement to make a payment of 45k technology. Alliance A clearly has the highest amount of technology to pay in absolute numbers, but it constitutes only 50% of their end-of-war technology. Alliance B, while having to pay significantly less technology in absolute terms, has a much higher burden, as 45k technology represents 75% of their final technology. Any comparison of reparations extractions must primarily take into account the capacity of the surrendering alliance to make payments.
[/quote]
I'm going to laugh pretty hard the day someone hands you down terms that take 2 years to pay off because your alliance has x amount of tech and 50% is reasonable... completely disregarding the fact that 75% of tech that took 1.5 years to gather is far less than 50% of tech that took 3-4 years to gather. If I had to 1000 tech and had to pay 100% of it, that would take me about 40 days, if I had to pay 30% of my 8000tech I had going into karma war that would take 80 days. Percentages and ratios are crappy indicators of severity of terms, time to pay them is probably a better way to view it. Your justifications and tales of righteousness are lacking.

Edited April 5, 2010 by mhawk

[scythegfx]

oh we won? that's cool man

[Smacky]

[quote name='flak attack' date='04 April 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1270444659' post='2248686']
Actually, I would say that the FoB exodus to PC proves that rather well, since they left because we were trying to avoid entering the war.
[/quote]
I read that wrong at first but you do have a point there. If CnG was angling to get into the war from the beginning things would be different, though not trying to jump on TOP wasn't the problem. It was discouraging us from defending PC.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='04 April 2010 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1270444537' post='2248682']
[color="#0000FF"]What I want to know is why DF is receiving 23k tech? Honestly, I really doubt they contributed much to the war, and they had no treaties to any of the defending alliances. War profiteering via bandwagon jumping is not something that should be encouraged.[/color]
[/quote]
See:

[quote name='Devilyn Caster' date='04 April 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1270446021' post='2248732']
Pretty sure Dark Fist is tied to FoB via NOIR.
[/quote]
Not to mention a half dozen treaty connections to other alliances fighting TIDTT.

Congratulations all around, especially to our allies in Athens and FoB, and NOIR allies in Sparta, DF, Aircastle, OSA and Nemesis. Special shout out to FAN too, it was a pleasure coordinating with you.

[DictatatorDan]

[color="#00BFFF"]Well it's over, it is finally over. It is regretable that it did not end sooner. I am not an adequate judge of the level of repreations, so I have no clue. I am dismayed though that any of the surrender terms I suggested were not taken. Overall though, good show. Only time will tell if any relationships that would have otherwise ended well can be repared.[/color]

[John Ron]

[quote]What I want to know is why DF is receiving 23k tech? Honestly, [b]I really doubt they contributed much to the war[/b], and they had no treaties to any of the defending alliances. War profiteering via bandwagon jumping is not something that should be encouraged.[/quote]
You really have no idea how much they helped us with targeting/staggering. They helped Aircastle nations keep MANY more TOP nations at war.

[quote name='memoryproblems' date='05 April 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1270446934' post='2248762']
That was my thoughts exactly, I believe they entered through their treaty with Aircastle, who had enough sense to agree to the cessation of hostilities through white peace.
[/quote]
We would have requested reps and sent them to DF if DF didn't ask for them directly. So what does it matter? We asked DF for help, as this was our first war and we were very inexperienced. They were amazing and said they'd help, knowing they'd take a beating. I'm glad to see DF get reps here and if you send any flak about it, it needs to be sent to me and Aircastle, alone. We made sure they got some compensation for the damages done to them at our request.

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' date='05 April 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1270445723' post='2248722']
You chained in offensively through your treaty with Aircastle into a curbstomp, forgive me if I and everyone else isn't crying over your lost tech
[/quote]
We asked them to help us. And it was most certainly NOT a curbstomp when Dark Fist/Aircastle entered the conflict. We passed on any reps demands we wanted to Dark Fist.

Edited April 5, 2010 by John Ron

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' date='05 April 2010 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1270447173' post='2248768']
iirc there was a point in the planning at which we discovered MHA and Gre were heading to your side. Now, how that was confirmed I don't know, but I believe that was the point at which we discovered we were at a strength disadvantage. It was definitely close, don't get me wrong. But I'm sure the assessments we were working with are out there somewhere.
[/quote]
Running the numbers retrospectively, I think I remember seeing you guys come up around 10mil NS short pre-flip. Considering that was less than 3% of the total involved strength, it wasn't that big a difference initially.

[V The King]

Also who is DF and why are they getting reparations?