The Easter Sunday Accords

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Sargun' date='04 April 2010 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1270439905' post='2248393']
Not that I want to be the first to start an argument over reps, but just for curiosity I'd like to see how these reps match up against others given out.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]What I want to know is why DF is receiving 23k tech? Honestly, I really doubt they contributed much to the war, and they had no treaties to any of the defending alliances. War profiteering via bandwagon jumping is not something that should be encouraged.[/color]

[Timeline]

[quote name='CloudGT4' date='05 April 2010 - 05:43 AM' timestamp='1270442604' post='2248586']
Pre-Emptively attacked to me, means C&G was plotting to attack TOP, IRON, and their friends, but were beat to the punch. When the numbers are against you, you do what you can to even the odds. So what if C&G would of gotten the first punch and demanded tech that would be bad?? But since someone out smarted them and got the first lick, its Okay to extort tech and money and such.. specially for the bandwagon alliances in the war.. I think I understand now.
[/quote]

Preemptively (if you are going to use big words, please try to spell then correctly) Relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is [b]believed to be imminent [/b] TOP & Co. had no prove or facts yet you seem to miss that part, C&G no matter what TOP and Co BELIEVED was not and had not partaken in any military action at the time they was declared on.

As to the number games, well at the start of the war, the numbers was on TOP's side, but you would not know about the start of the war, well becuase you fail to look at the bigger picture, TOP believed that they had the support of NpO and her allies therefor giving TOP the numbers.

Yet more mindless, and fact less drivel (childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle.) coming from a failhalla member, when will they start to educate their members on the actions within BoB, NPO are no longer here to hold your hand.

[Letum]

[quote name='Denial' date='05 April 2010 - 05:55 AM' timestamp='1270443333' post='2248632']
Comparing reparations in absolute numbers is purposely disinegenuous and is only performed by those attempting to manipulate the truth to incite some misguided outrage. It flagrantly disregards the rapid inflation that has been present within the Cyberverse, particularly during the era of the Hegemony. The only honest method of comparing the burden of reparations is to look at it proportionally; the percentage of technology/cash that an alliance must send out in relation to their remaining technology at the conclusion of the war. By that legitimate standard - and when you add into the equation that this peace settlement is extracting reparations from parties that are, incontrovertibly, the aggressors - this peace settlement is light.
[/quote]

First off, I should point out one flaw in your argument: inflation deals merely with the value of technology, and not its cost. Whilst the value would be of interest if you are approaching the calculation from the perspective of benefit conferred upon the recipient, since harshness is determined by its effect on the sender of reparations and since the cost of creating tech has remained stable, inflation does not exist on that level.

In the case of nations who are too big to create tech from their own nations, the more accurate guide to inflation would be the price at which they can get it from the market. Whilst prices have varied, for much of the past 2 years, a large amount of tech can be acquired at a rate that has remained fairly steady: 3m/100t. In fact, that very rate has been built into several peace agreements, including the tech deals that Gramlins have received in lieu of reps in the past, in NPO's Karma surrender, and even as far back as the Continuum-GPA war.

Therefore, the comparison of absolute numbers is perfectly applicable when judging harshness, and any attempt to claim inflation as some universal and unquantified mitigating factor is itself disingenuous, and smacks of an attempt to seize upon a subjective term to create an illusion of lightness. Likewise, aggression does not impact on the material effect of reparations on the payer.

Furthermore, if you were to use the metric or proportion of tech in relation to what is leftover at the end of the war, the reps imposed on the NPO - which were well above 100% of what was left-over, would be the harshest in history. Now, I am sure you can seize upon some variant of "that is deserved" in order to hand-wave that uncomfortable fact away, but, once again, no level of subjective concepts of fairness will change the material impact of a set of reparations, and consequently their severity. Therefore, if you want to remain consistent in your transparent attempts to seize upon random and unjustified yardsticks which conveniently lay the illusion of credence to your desperate defence of your high ground, I would suggest you seize upon a different such yardstick in the future, for it is unlikely to serve you well in further comparisons.

I hope you liked my inclusion of exaggerated adjectives; I tried to match your writing style.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Letum

[flak attack]

[quote name='Denial' date='05 April 2010 - 01:13 AM' timestamp='1270444402' post='2248677']
As the one making the baseless accusations (C&G were 'plotting' to attack IRON & TOP), the onus is upon you to provide proof. Particularly considering asking me to provide proof is disingenuous; it's impossible for anyone to prove a negative.
[/quote]
Actually, I would say that the FoB exodus to PC proves that rather well, since they left because we were trying to avoid entering the war.

[Chickenzilla]

We have become the monster.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 April 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1270444537' post='2248682']
[color="#0000FF"]What I want to know is why DF is receiving 23k tech? Honestly, I really doubt they contributed much to the war, and they had no treaties to any of the defending alliances. War profiteering via bandwagon jumping is not something that should be encouraged.[/color]
[/quote]

Agreed fully.

[NeCoHo]

[quote name='Denial' date='05 April 2010 - 01:13 AM' timestamp='1270444402' post='2248677']
Perhaps people should learn a lesson and stop attacking us and our allies. If you don't want to pay reparations, don't engage in wars of aggression. It's rather simple.
[/quote]

You seem to be really good at ignoring facts and substituting attacks on others(in this case, the entire Planet) in their place.

EDIT: It's in your name, I get it!

Edited April 5, 2010 by NeCoHo

[Lord Boris]

I really don't see why there's such a outcry over the numbers here. It's been shown that the reps are inline with the damages caused, so it's not excessive in the same way that other reps in recent past have been (such as the reps forced on TOOL). Also, from the pragmatic standpoint here, you had a pre-emptive strike backfire badly. If ever there was a case for a 'To the victors go the spoils' situation, this would probably be it.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='NeCoHo' date='05 April 2010 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1270444831' post='2248694']
You seem to be really good at ignoring facts and substituting attacks on others(in this case, the entire Planet) in their place.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Well, they have been denying that they were planning to enter against TOP and IRON from the beginning. Why should we expect them to acknowledge the truth now?

Also, would somebody like to explain to me what "indirect" tech is?[/color]

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 April 2010 - 01:23 AM' timestamp='1270445014' post='2248701']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, they have been denying that they were planning to enter against TOP and IRON from the beginning. Why should we expect them to acknowledge the truth now?

Also, would somebody like to explain to me what "indirect" tech is?[/color]
[/quote]

They can buy the tech from others and have those others sent to the receiving alliance.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 April 2010 - 01:23 AM' timestamp='1270445014' post='2248701']
[color="#0000FF"]Well, they have been denying that they were planning to enter against TOP and IRON from the beginning. Why should we expect them to acknowledge the truth now?

Also, would somebody like to explain to me what "indirect" tech is?[/color]
[/quote]


It can be purchased by TOP/IRON and sent to C&G

Ex: TOP/IRON could send cash to alliances like Legion with a multitude of tech sellers and have the Legion sellers send the tech to C&G instead of back to TOP/IRON. This is in lieu of having to send tech from nations with significant tech stockpiles such as what TOP has

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 April 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1270444537' post='2248682']
[color="#0000FF"]What I want to know is why DF is receiving 23k tech? Honestly, I really doubt they contributed much to the war, and they had no treaties to any of the defending alliances. War profiteering via bandwagon jumping is not something that should be encouraged.[/color]
[/quote]

I didn't notice this, and agree fully.

[Denial]

[quote name='Letum' date='05 April 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1270444563' post='2248684']
<snip>
[/quote]
Comparaing absolute reparations to judge the burden of reparations is undeniably dishonest. For example, Alliance A possesses 200k technology at the conclusion of a war and is obligated via peace settlement to make a payment of 100k technology. On the other hand, Alliance B possesses 60k technology at the conclusion of a war and is obligated via peace settlement to make a payment of 45k technology. Alliance A clearly has the highest amount of technology to pay in absolute numbers, but it constitutes only 50% of their end-of-war technology. Alliance B, while having to pay significantly less technology in absolute terms, has a much higher burden, as 45k technology represents 75% of their final technology. Any comparison of reparations extractions must primarily take into account the capacity of the surrendering alliance to make payments.

As for the remainder of your post, where you predictably include a mention of NPO's reparations (what's a Letum post without it?), no one denied that the burden on Pacifica was high. That was the intention of the peace terms, given that Pacifica was the lynchpin of the Hegemony and had conducted a war of aggression backed by a dubious casus belli. How exactly was that in any way relevant to our discussion, anyway? We get it, Pacifica is working assiduously to be seen as the poor victim of a world that is out to get them, but there's a time and a place for your tired propaganda.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Denial

[CaptainCracker]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='05 April 2010 - 06:15 AM' timestamp='1270444537' post='2248682']
[color="#0000FF"]What I want to know is why DF is receiving 23k tech? Honestly, I really doubt they contributed much to the war, and they had no treaties to any of the defending alliances. War profiteering via bandwagon jumping is not something that should be encouraged.[/color]
[/quote]

[color="#F52887"]
It's 11,7k tech, sparta got 23k tech.
We demanded that amount after finding out how much the fighting nations lost(which is a lot more then that amount) and we went with that amount

also, pink text > blue
[/color]

[armageddon23]

I can't wait for my cast iron frying pans! The bacon is going to taste sooo goood!!!

[Lord GVChamp]

[quote name='Chickenzilla' date='05 April 2010 - 12:18 AM' timestamp='1270444668' post='2248687']
We have become the monster.
[/quote]
Nah, you aren't the monster. The monster is dead, so that means the #2 guy becomes #1 and the #3 guy becomes #2. Your bloc found yourselves associated with the mentally unstable Gramlins, remained tied to the mentally unstable Polaris when everyone else bailed out, continue to allow alliances like Athens to exist as something other than a smoking crater, and are still tied to Sparta who are getting reps they do not deserve from multiple alliances.


You aren't the good guys. Not by half. But if comparing yourself to NPO makes you feel better, hey, go ahead! But that's not going to make me like you, anymore than NPO being better than GOONS and FAN and \m/ made me like THEM

Edited April 5, 2010 by Lord GVChamp

[Laserwolf]

Congrats on peace to everyone. TSO, you guys were a fun and worthy opponent and fought well despite being outnumbered. This was a hard war as many were put in difficult situations and had to make difficult decisions. Now that peace has come, let the rebuilding process begin not only in terms of infra and tech but in friendships as priority.

[bigwoody]

Good to see this finally done despite the obstructive efforts of some (one) who does not appear on this document.

Enjoy rebuilding, all. Good luck have fun.

[CloudGT4]

[quote name='Timeline' date='05 April 2010 - 06:15 AM' timestamp='1270444541' post='2248683']
Preemptively (if you are going to use big words, please try to spell then correctly) Relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is [b]believed to be imminent [/b] TOP & Co. had no prove or facts yet you seem to miss that part, C&G no matter what TOP and Co BELIEVED was not and had not partaken in any military action at the time they was declared on.

As to the number games, well at the start of the war, the numbers was on TOP's side, but you would not know about the start of the war, well becuase you fail to look at the bigger picture, TOP believed that they had the support of NpO and her allies therefor giving TOP the numbers.

Yet more mindless, and fact less drivel (childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle.) coming from a failhalla member, when will they start to educate their members on the actions within BoB, NPO are no longer here to hold your hand.
[/quote]

Now we were having civil arguments.. thanks to MHA for a meaningless and flamming troll. You just made your whole side look bad. You see how you lose against me every time.

[Denial]

[quote name='flak attack' date='05 April 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1270444659' post='2248686']
Actually, I would say that the FoB exodus to PC proves that rather well, since they left because we were trying to avoid entering the war.
[/quote]
That's quite a good point.

[V The King]

Cool stuff. Time to rebuild for the next !@#$storm.

edit: or the next opportunity to make Bob a greener place.

Edited April 5, 2010 by V The King

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='CaptainCracker' date='05 April 2010 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1270445339' post='2248710']
[color="#F52887"]
It's 11,7k tech, sparta got 23k tech.
We demanded that amount after finding out how much the fighting nations lost(which is a lot more then that amount) and we went with that amount

also, pink text > blue
[/color]
[/quote]


You chained in offensively through your treaty with Aircastle into a curbstomp, forgive me if I and everyone else isn't crying over your lost tech

[DougZ37]

I personally had a really good time with this war. Even got the chance to fight the same guy over a few rounds, definately interested. However 65 nukes eaten later, and I'm glad to have peace

It was fun destroying years of stats collections. Good fight C&G. It'll be interesting to see where the next year takes us, and hopefully we won't need to revisit a war like this.

[Ubermeir]

Peace at last
\o/

Edited April 5, 2010 by Ubermeir

[iamthey]

Not as bad as I thought they would be, glad to see its over. Also nice to see gre left to fend for themselves, they shouldn't have been taking advantage of their allies the way they did.