Betrayal and Manipulation

[rsoxbronco1]

I'd rather be me on your best day. Stay classy.

And thanks for stopping by.

Please go fade back into obscurity where you belong.

[George the Great]

Mhawk knew what I was posting. He will be posting the logs of his conversation with ironchef, who apparently set this all in motion.

I used all caps to get their attention; if it had been true that athens had pulled their terms because of their change of government (which I was told would apparently be a violation of their terms) they would, in fact, be back at war. But I knew they would check with Athens. I did not know that it was a set up, however.

I hope they don't take too long to type up. mhawk was aware that this thread was being posted as his permission was asked to use the logs involving him.

[Merrie Melodies]

In response to mhawk:

So let me get this straight. GGA tells mhawk that we are going to roll them for violating terms. mhawk then tells Moo, who then tells GGA. GGA is worried and comes and talks to me. IT'S A PERFECT CIRCLE. And yet, somehow not. -.- Somehow, this smells like a gigantic attempt to palm off blame for a scheme gone bad, but I expect time will tell exactly who started what and who knew what. While it remains to be seen exactly who concocted what and who was in the know, I do believe that people will say just about anything for damage control in a case like this.

Of course, it's not like GGA doesn't have a track record of.......................Oh wait.

My money is on GGA committing shenanagains.

[Mogar]

In response to mhawk:

So let me get this straight. GGA tells mhawk that we are going to roll them for violating terms. mhawk then tells Moo, who then tells GGA. GGA is worried and comes and talks to me. IT'S A PERFECT CIRCLE. And yet, somehow not. -.- Somehow, this smells like a gigantic attempt to palm off blame for a scheme gone bad, but I expect time will tell exactly who started what and who knew what. While it remains to be seen exactly who concocted what and who was in the know, I do believe that people will say just about anything for damage control in a case like this.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=58727

I am noticing the lack of a certain signature on this document who seems to be the root of this situation.

[TehChron]

Oh, but Moo did pin it on him. He wasn't simply saying he got the intel and passed it along. He named names. Sure mhawk would have taken responsibility. He's that kind of guy. But Moo, facing the toughest challenge in his hitherto phoned-in Emperorship cracked under the pressure and passed the buck. That much is obvious.

Sal.

Shut up.

You really want to trash so badly that you're giving up any attempt at critical thinking for swallowing any excuse to dump on the NPO?

The GGA aren't freacking angels, man. They're as rotten as their masters ever were. You think that just because there's a change of leadership now, when the opportunity for $@!-covering and coup'ing has come across, that suddenly there's going to be some kind of spiritual awakening?

Athens got sucked in by the appeal this presented as propaganda. But the implications of this logdump is simply:

The GGA are lower scum than the NPO ever was. The GGA membership never had a problem with the Green Civil War, or any other atrocity that was committed in the NPO's name. And you think they're suddenly credible?

Get over yourself.

[BamaBuc]

Mhawk knew what I was posting. He will be posting the logs of his conversation with ironchef, who apparently set this all in motion.

I used all caps to get their attention; if it had been true that athens had pulled their terms because of their change of government (which I was told would apparently be a violation of their terms) they would, in fact, be back at war. But I knew they would check with Athens. I did not know that it was a set up, however.

Then I apologize. It just seemed to me likeyou were saying "Uhh... MHAWK TOLD ME TO!!!" I will certainly wait to hear the rest of the story.

-Bama

[rsoxbronco1]

Mhawk knew what I was posting. He will be posting the logs of his conversation with ironchef, who apparently set this all in motion.

I used all caps to get their attention; if it had been true that athens had pulled their terms because of their change of government (which I was told would apparently be a violation of their terms) they would, in fact, be back at war. But I knew they would check with Athens. I did not know that it was a set up, however.

Wait...we set you up?

[TehChron]

Wait...we set you up?

No, GGA did out of blatant opportunism.

A hallmark of the alliance.

[Ragashingo]

Well this is interesting. I guess all I have for you guys (all of you) is a suggestion. Check your facts before using caps lock.

[ChairmanHal]

Glad to see you aren't going to let it seem like Moo was trying to pin anything on you, classy as always mhawk.

As to everyone that is trying to say Moo is trying to pin this on TPF, I do not think that is what he was doing at all, He was simply saying that he got intel that was relevant to his allies and passed it along, I would expect that is exactly what mhawk expected moo to do with it and the fact that the intel was apparently faulty was no ones fault.

I also agree with Heft and Grub seeing this mob mentality in action is frightening.

Not exactly everyday you see one of these threads get posted and then the principals involved own their actions and their words.

If this had followed the typical pattern, at some point tomorrow night Moo would issued a denial (with or without screen shots) and that mhawk's name may or may not have even came up in the ensuing crapstorm.

This forum lives on adrenaline and anything that resembles news. In a sense it is no different than RL 24 hour news channels, complete with "expert commentary", political spin, and people shooting their mouth off before all the facts are in.

It doesn't help when what is being reported is completely believable and squares with past behavior.

[Carter]

Well now, this turned out to be interesting. Good luck to you GGA.

[Coven]

This forum lives on adrenaline and anything that resembles news. In a sense it is no different than RL 24 hour news channels, complete with "expert commentary", political spin, and people shooting their mouth off before all the facts are in.

It doesn't help when what is being reported is completely believable and squares with past behavior.

Such truth! I completely agree.

[Nintenderek]

In response to mhawk:

So let me get this straight. GGA tells mhawk that we are going to roll them for violating terms. mhawk then tells Moo, who then tells GGA. GGA is worried and comes and talks to me. IT'S A PERFECT CIRCLE. And yet, somehow not. -.- Somehow, this smells like a gigantic attempt to palm off blame for a scheme gone bad, but I expect time will tell exactly who started what and who knew what. While it remains to be seen exactly who concocted what and who was in the know, I do believe that people will say just about anything for damage control in a case like this.

I know what really happened. This is all GPA's fault

On a serious note, I'm not sure who to blame, but a lot of people $%&@ed up in this situation.

[Gears of War]

So let me get this straight. GGA tells mhawk that we are going to roll them for violating terms. mhawk then tells Moo, who then tells GGA. GGA is worried and comes and talks to me. IT'S A PERFECT CIRCLE. And yet, somehow not. -.- Somehow, this smells like a gigantic attempt to palm off blame for a scheme gone bad, but I expect time will tell exactly who started what and who knew what. While it remains to be seen exactly who concocted what and who was in the know, I do believe that people will say just about anything for damage control in a case like this.

So either GGA really really wanted a plausible reason to cancel on NPO or they got scared by their own shadow?

[Adrian LaCroix]

/me facepalms.

I don't think I want to know what's going on at this point.

[Rush Sykes]

That's great hippo of critical thought and civility, thank you very much.

As to your inquiry, gentle traveler, I take issue with the immediate acceptance of a very one-sided portrayal of events as facts, and believe that the only reason such a thing happened was because there are too many people zealously dedicated to believing NPO can only do wrong, and do wrong in the most manipulative and evil way possible. The OP is mostly logs between GGA and Athens government, it looks like, which seems kind of useless when talking about GGA/NPO interactions, and I don't understand why the pertinent details in those (GGA/Athens) logs weren't simply written into the post, unless they wanted to prop up the credibility of their position, or maybe they just didn't feel like writing, which is cool too.

I have no doubt that the basic facts (Moo told GGA peace was being retracted when it wasn't) are in fact true. But the OP then extrapolates from this basic fact the implication that the NPO was devilishly attempting to manipulate their allies into re-entering the war. Critical, even marginally objective, thinking would indicate that that seems like a really convoluted, saturday-morning-cartoon-villain scheme doomed to failure. So to accept this explanation you have to also accept that the NPO, and especially Moo, are enacting absurd schemes to eek out every drop of their allies blood they possibly can, and also that they're really, really, horrendously bad at it.

You also have to ignore the much more obvious explanation, which seems to be true, which is just that "Moo was honestly wrong."

If the given explanation is unnecessarily convoluted, and there is a readily apparent alternative explanation that hasn't been addressed in any way, then anyone who is approaching such a situation objectively, with critical thinking, should quickly go "hmm, this doesn't quite seem right."

Even yourself, good sir, would have to admit, it is rather convoluted to expect that Mhawk and Moo discussed this impending re-declaration of war by Athens with one another, without Mhawk ever once mentioning to him that he got the info from GGA themselves( a fact that, in this case is HUGE, as it would negate the necessity of Moo to go to GGA and warn them about all of this.) This whole package seems to be wrapped way to neatly and tightly. Mhawk has proven, time and again, that he is Moo's most staunch ally. It is unfathomable that at no point when Mhawk was telling Moo all of this, Moo would not say "what is your source" and even more unfathomable that Mhawk would not divulge his source.

[Londo Mollari]

[16:18] <DeScepter> Yes, he started screaming that we were at war with you again

[16:18] <DeScepter> Then said "oops, just kidding" when we called him on it

[16:18] <DeScepter> Then he got mysteriously silent

[16:18] <Londo|away> O.o

[16:18] <Londo|away> wow

[16:18] <DeScepter> Pretty pathetic

Also, note this section of the logs of my conversation with GGA. Why on earth would Moo say something to the effect of "Just Kidding" after GGA called him on it? Someone is very clearly lying here. I can't see why GGA would lie to me and then approve the logs for publication, so unless I see otherwise, I am inclined to believe that GGA has told me the truth.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Londo Mollari

[rsoxbronco1]

No, GGA did out of blatant opportunism.

A hallmark of the alliance.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. (OOC: I've been offline most of the weekend so I'm not up to date on everything)

But, if they set this up, what exactly were they hoping to gain? We're already protecting them.

[Michael McBride]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=58727

I am noticing the lack of a certain signature on this document who seems to be the root of this situation.

Degenerate? Glad they got rid of that guy... he was a, well... degenerate. *rimshot*

[Mogar]

Also, note this section of the logs of my conversation with GGA. Why on earth would Moo say something to the effect of "Just Kidding" after GGA called him on it? Someone is very clearly lying here. I can't see why GGA would lie to me and then approve the logs for publication, so unless I see otherwise, I am inclined to believe that GGA has told me the truth.

note the lack of ironchef as a Trium.

[King Srqt]

Also, note this section of the logs of my conversation with GGA. Why on earth would Moo say something to the effect of "Just Kidding" after GGA called him on it? Someone is very clearly lying here. I can't see why GGA would lie to me and then approve the logs for publication, so unless I see otherwise, I am inclined to believe that GGA has told me the truth.

I am starting to strongly feel that your assumption is incorrect. But I never know anything so you should probably just ignore me.

[Kylliah]

Sooo... who took the cookie from the cookie jar?

Is this a case of Moo passing the proverbial buck? Or more a case of trying to outwit each other, and ending up with egg on EVERYONE's face?

[Nizzle]

Honorable as always Athens.

o7 Athens

[Gopherbashi]

Ironchef told TPF that GGA was getting rolled. TPF tells Moo. Moo tells Ironchef.

Ironchef is then told by Athens that NPO (via TPF via Ironchef) was trying to get them back into the war.

This just hurts my head.

[Mogar]

Ironchef told TPF that GGA was getting rolled. TPF tells Moo. Moo tells Ironchef.

Ironchef is then told by Athens that NPO (via TPF via Ironchef) was trying to get them back into the war.

This just hurts my head.

ding ding ding. a winrar is you.