Betrayal and Manipulation

[Ardus]

Burn them all to ash and be done with it. This is ridiculous.

[Chickenzilla]

So is this thread a simple case of severe misunderstanding between two alliances, severe incompetance, or an actual problem. As this thread goes on the only thing that becomes more certain to me is that I'm only going to get confused more than I already am. I think we should all just leave this thread for about 12 hours and hope that mhawk has a thread up by then that can explain to us all what exactly is going on and that the GGA already had time to prepare their appropriate counter response. Anyways I guess I'll follow my own advice and check in on this thread at noon tomorrow.

[Lincongrad]

Basically Moo took bad intelligence and acted in bad faith, embarrassing his ally and soiling the reputation of NPO.

Excuse me, but I believe your statement of moo acting in bad faith is complete conjecture. Unless you have some new evidence to share with us?

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

But I still cannot comprehend the series of events that led to this.

I shall reiterate (in revised format):

ironchef tells mhawk that Athens is going to pull terms.

mhawk tells Moo that Athens is going to pull terms, without citing the source (which is the only thing that makes sense).

Moo tells GGA's government (including ironchef) that Athens is going to pull terms, thereby informing them of something they already knew (or did they...?).

GGA's government contacts Athens asking them if they are going to pull terms, citing Moo's tip that Athens is going to pull terms that actually came from GGA.

Athens and GGA post a joint response.

Does it make sense to you? It certainly doesn't to me.

[Gn0xious Jr]

sheesh... 13 pages in and still don't have a clear understanding of what really happened...

...there have been some pretty outlandish scenarios thrown about, but given the events over the past few months, outlandish might replace logic

guess I'll have to wait for the "flow chart" once all is said and done

[Haflinger]

But Haf, ironchef was in the convo with Moo.

You just made everything infinitely more confusing. THIS MAKES NO SENSE. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

It's a GGA thread.

[Sileath]

Excuse me, but I believe your statement of moo acting in bad faith is complete conjecture. Unless you have some new evidence to share with us?

[03:08] <shaneprice[GGA]> [02:08:20] <@Moo-Cows> ATHENS IS PULLILNG TERMS

[03:08] <shaneprice[GGA]> [02:08:25] <@Moo-Cows> YOU ARE BACK AT WAR]

I recall that Athens does not declare war without a DoW. What was the alliance that does that..? Oh yes, NPO.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

It's a GGA thread.

GGA threads are humorous and bad for PR: they do not defy logical thought.

[Lincongrad]

I recall that Athens does not declare war without a DoW. What was the alliance that does that..? Oh yes, NPO.

Moo is pretty clearly using that statement to convey a sense of urgency, not to tell GGA to go look at their warscreens.

[Haflinger]

GGA threads are humorous and bad for PR: they do not defy logical thought.

You have evidently forgotten Protected Nation.

[Sal Paradise]

I don't have any experience with Athens, positive or negative, to evaluate them by, but I don't think anyone is actually claiming that they were going to attack GGA again, and I don't have any reason to doubt them in that regard. The question is more "Was Moo intentionally deceitful or was Moo just mistaken?" Everybody immediately assumed the former, because that's what they were told and, I suppose, because that's what they want to believe (or because they already believe Moo to routinely be intentionally deceitful), even though the latter seemed at least as likely.

You missed out one important distinction. A distinction I mentioned in the post you quoted and the one I'm sure many have been going on. Most didn't believe Moo was deceitful because that's what they were told; they believed Moo was deceitful because he is consistently is. Because the NPO has a long track record of deceit.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

You have evidently forgotten Protected Nation.

That did not defy logical thought. That was simply horrendous damage control on epic levels.

And no, I haven't. I have it bookmarked.

[Sileath]

Moo is pretty clearly using that statement to convey a sense of urgency, not to tell GGA to go look at their warscreens.

It doesn't matter, apparently the whole situation is mhawk's fault anyway. No need to stand by your actions when you're (or used to be) a global despot.

[Mirreille]

But I still cannot comprehend the series of events that led to this.

I shall reiterate (in revised format):

ironchef tells mhawk that Athens is going to pull terms.

mhawk tells Moo that Athens is going to pull terms, without citing the source (which is the only thing that makes sense).

Moo tells GGA's government (including ironchef) that Athens is going to pull terms, thereby informing them of something they already knew (or did they...?).

GGA's government contacts Athens asking them if they are going to pull terms, citing Moo's tip that Athens is going to pull terms that actually came from GGA.

Athens and GGA post a joint response.

Does it make sense to you? It certainly doesn't to me.

Out of all the parties involved in this, which group is currently undergoing severe internal restructuring? With a possible coup on the side? This makes infinitely more sense, if you consider that GGA might not all be on the same page here.

[Sal Paradise]

It doesn't matter, apparently the whole situation is mhawk's fault anyway. No need to stand by your actions when you're (or used to be) a global despot.

Not atypical behaviour, to be sure. The quote in my sig comes to mind.

[Lincongrad]

It doesn't matter, apparently the whole situation is mhawk's fault anyway. No need to stand by your actions when you're (or used to be) a global despot.

Why don't you go ahead and read over the thread again. Mhawk has said that it was his information, and although i can't actually find the post myself apparently people have deduced that mhawk's tip came from Ironchef. Nowhere in there is Moo making something up/lying.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

Out of all the parties involved in this, which group is currently undergoing severe internal restructuring? With a possible coup on the side? This makes infinitely more sense, if you consider that GGA might not all be on the same page here.

However there was no mention from ironchef or from anyone else in GGA that they knew about this beforehand, and again, ironchef was in the convo with Moo and didn't say anything about it.

No sense at-tall. Unless GGA is somehow the puppetmaster behind TPF and NPO and was able to make this series of confusing events happen without implicating themselves (though that makes even less sense).

Edited May 26, 2009 by Tolkien

[Kylliah]

I recall that Athens does not declare war without a DoW. What was the alliance that does that..? Oh yes, NPO.

What method would YOU use to convey a sense of urgency when your allies, who you are trying to protect, seem oblivious to what you believe is a very real threat? That's all I gathered from those particular logs, though much is lost in translation from one conversation to the next.

[Matthew Conrad]

NVM lol

Edited May 26, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Roadie]

But I still cannot comprehend the series of events that led to this.

I shall reiterate (in revised format):

ironchef tells mhawk that Athens is going to pull terms.

mhawk tells Moo that Athens is going to pull terms, without citing the source (which is the only thing that makes sense).

Moo tells GGA's government (including ironchef) that Athens is going to pull terms, thereby informing them of something they already knew (or did they...?).

GGA's government contacts Athens asking them if they are going to pull terms, citing Moo's tip that Athens is going to pull terms that actually came from GGA.

Athens and GGA post a joint response.

Does it make sense to you? It certainly doesn't to me.

Speculation: Ironchef hasn't yet recognized that her convo with Mhawk is what is making it's way back via Moo, or 3: Ironchef doesn't want to fess up, or B: Ironchef is not the source.

[uaciaut]

Ahahahahaha, <3 Broth, glad to see you're keeping your usual style of posting

Also @this thread: communication breakdown!

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

Speculation: Ironchef hasn't yet recognized that her convo with Mhawk is what is making it's way back via Moo, or 3: Ironchef doesn't want to fess up, or B: Ironchef is not the source.

Speculation does not help solve this logical paradox, it exacerbates it as now there are even more options to make an already confusing chain of events even more complicated.

[Sileath]

Why don't you go ahead and read over the thread again. Mhawk has said that it was his information, and although i can't actually find the post myself apparently people have deduced that mhawk's tip came from Ironchef. Nowhere in there is Moo making something up/lying.

Moo used bad intelligence (as it obviously turned out to be untrue, which is the reason this thread exists) in bad faith (to manipulate GGA into DoWing on Athens instead of trying to find out the truth) then when confronted with the ridiculousness of his actions his only response is "Well mhawk told me" and making NPO look like opportunists grasping for straws and trying to get anyone to join on their side in their epic fail of a war effort.

[Sal Paradise]

That isn't Athens, that's a single post by a member of MK. MK, obviously, doesn't endorse rolling GGA after their reps as shown by Archon's posts. Show me a SS of an Athens gov member stating they want to attack GGA, then maybe I'll take you seriously.

Still wouldn't be any point in taking it seriously depending on which Athens government member said it. I'm sure you can find several posts by me when I was in GR government expressing a desire to attack any number of alliances. None of them would mean a thing coming from a Minister of Internal Affairs.

[Lincongrad]

Moo used bad intelligence (as it obviously turned out to be untrue, which is the reason this thread exists) in bad faith (to manipulate GGA into DoWing on Athens instead of trying to find out the truth) then when confronted with the ridiculousness of his actions his only response is "Well mhawk told me" and making NPO look like opportunists grasping for straws and trying to get anyone to join on their side in their epic fail of a war effort.

I say again, where did the "bad faith" come from? Sure, it could be true. It's not even particularly unlikely. But I disliek when someone makes a statement based off conjecture.