Declaration From The Independent Republic of Orange Nations

[RevolutionaryRebel]

It was said that VE wouldn't have accepted it, and I'd agree that we probably wouldn't have, we'd have probably shifted all of our NS to hitting that alliance.

Okay, this is the most important question. Let's continue along this assumption that VE was in NG's position. If your ally was responsible for bargaining with you in such an agreement and they failed to use their influence to procure a reasonable (from NG's position) offer (let's say a blanket no re-entry clause), would you say they were a good ally?

From what I can see, IRON didn't make a serious effort at peace negotiations other than starting them and clearly didn't leverage themselves in the matter. IRON seemingly did not seek compromises from both parties (let's say, limiting counters against LoSS's allies) in order to 'bridge' the positions of both parties, presented LoSS's position as a Hobson's Choice (LoSS's peace or no peace) and is currently claiming that as the total worth of their MDP treaty. Is this the sort of actions VE would expect of its allies?

If not, then we might be getting somewhere. Edited November 17, 2013 by RevolutionaryRebel

[ChairmanHal]

Even by your standards, this is weak. If any of C&G's allies at whose side we are fighting on several fronts thinks we are not pulling our weight or living up to our obligations, I haven't heard a whisper of it: nor, I suspect, have you. If C&G had engineered some weak excuse to attack NPO, rather than work with it, you might begin to have some kind of point.

 

Your comments here by my standards are hardly worth the bandwidth to comment on, yet I reply anyway.   <_<

 

NPO's former emperor, Brehon, though a lot of C&G.  So much, he pissed off some his allies in order to get you better terms at the end of the last war.  Now unless he was having imaginary conversations with people, I'm going to assume that you at least made an effort to make sure he knew the feeling was mutual.  Yet here we are some months later, and save perhaps for GATO's war dec on Invicta, where's the cavalry riding over the hill to rescue Pacifica?  You do have a treaty with them right?  as does TLR.  Sure they are optional treaties in your case and TLR's, but NPO was under attack after coming to NSO's aid long before you were involved in this fight.  Did you even offer to help NPO?

 

You made a choice to favor one treaty or set of treaties over another.  You picked a front to fight on and that was the end of it.  That's all I see IRON doing here.  Yeah you complain bitterly about IRON doing something you yourself have done.

[Overlord Shinnra]

Not at all Rush, what I'm saying is, if NG wanted peace, the offer to walk away from LoSS was on the table. It was said that VE wouldn't have accepted it, and I'd agree that we probably wouldn't have, we'd have probably shifted all of our NS to hitting that alliance. But we're vindictive bastards, not everyone else is. But if peace was my overriding goal, I'd have taken the one on the table just to be done with it.

 

I think about 3-4 people have tried to explain it to you now. I assume that NG was looking for peace for itself and its allies/coalition. With all the cards on the table, LoSS wasn't offering that so it didn't get accepted. 

 

So if you are questioning NG on how they negotiate and try to get every term they can then you simply don't know how to negotiate. 

If you are questioning NG's motives, then I'm not suprised since people in the IRON sphere don't seem to know anything about looking out for allies.

[Letum]

Your comments here by my standards are hardly worth the bandwidth to comment on, yet I reply anyway.   <_<
 
NPO's former emperor, Brehon, though a lot of C&G.  So much, he pissed off some his allies in order to get you better terms at the end of the last war.  Now unless he was having imaginary conversations with people, I'm going to assume that you at least made an effort to make sure he knew the feeling was mutual.  Yet here we are some months later, and save perhaps for GATO's war dec on Invicta, where's the cavalry riding over the hill to rescue Pacifica?  You do have a treaty with them right?  as does TLR.  Sure they are optional treaties in your case and TLR's, but NPO was under attack after coming to NSO's aid long before you were involved in this fight.  Did you even offer to help NPO?
 
You made a choice to favor one treaty or set of treaties over another.  You picked a front to fight on and that was the end of it.  That's all I see IRON doing here.  Yeah you complain bitterly about IRON doing something you yourself have done.

What the hell are you on about? CnG is fighting in this war and has not shied away from damage, nor tried to deny obligations to get in on the winning side. Do they need to specifically be fighting the same alliances fighting us for it to "count"? War coalitions deploy people according to a strategy, not a "let's all go for the first treaty activated".

[Goldie]

Okay, this is the most important question. Let's continue along this assumption that VE was in NG's position. If your ally was responsible for bargaining with you in such an agreement and they failed to use their influence to procure a reasonable (from NG's position) offer (let's say a blanket no re-entry clause), would you say they were a good ally?

From what I can see, IRON didn't make a serious effort at peace negotiations other than starting them and clearly didn't leverage themselves in the matter. IRON seemingly did not seek compromises from both parties (let's say, limiting counters against LoSS's allies) in order to 'bridge' the positions of both parties, presented LoSS's position as a Hobson's Choice (LoSS's peace or no peace) and is currently claiming that as the total worth of their MDP treaty. Is this the sort of actions VE would expect of its allies?

If not, then we might be getting somewhere.

That's easy, I never in a hundred years would put an ally who was clearly on the other side in such a position because of a technicality, like NG feeling like it had a claim that it was pre-empted. If I knew 5 alliances were going to be on me, and a sixth was on there because of an unposted treaty, I would have either taken the peace or let it ride out, but I wouldn't have tried to pull an ally who wanted to be on the other side, and had many reasons to be on the other side, into the mess with me.

[RevolutionaryRebel]

So, NG should have refused IRON's offer of assistance in peace negotiations (assuming this was their idea, not NG's) on the basis that IRON had nothing to bring to the table? In other words, IRON was of no value to NG as an Ally and therefore, their claims against IRON surrounding that proposition are correct.

We must assume that if NG knew its treaty would be useless, they would have cancelled it. We must also assume that IRON saw some value in keeping the treaty themselves. This would lead us to conclude that NG was blind-sided by IRON during this war. Whether IRON acted maliciously towards an aly or were incompetent/lazy enough to leave NG hanging is something only IRON can answer (both are plausible). While I would certainly not be foolish enough to suggest that NG didn't try to flog a dead horse, IRON was never in a position to help NG at all and thus can claim no credit for its role in any such peace discussions.

[TIEIXIAIS]

That's easy, I never in a hundred years would put an ally who was clearly on the other side in such a position because of a technicality, like NG feeling like it had a claim that it was pre-empted. If I knew 5 alliances were going to be on me, and a sixth was on there because of an unposted treaty, I would have either taken the peace or let it ride out, but I wouldn't have tried to pull an ally who wanted to be on the other side, and had many reasons to be on the other side, into the mess with me.

You as well as anyone should know that when in a war your objective is peace for the entire coalition. IRON was unwilling and unable to provide that.

You said it yourself.  VE and co would have just shifted NS around, LoSS would have declared on another ally and we NG would be in the exact same position. That is not peace and not in the spirit of any treaty. You can not rightfully begin to humor that as a foul move on Non Grata's part. VE would have done the exact same in Non Grata's position.

It is clear that IRON council were not on the same page at the beginning of this conflict and had/have no idea what they are doing. This is uncharacteristic of the Council.but they now have no choice but to follow through. Sure it makes them look bad but they don't have much of a choice now.

Since IRON is incapable of fixing their error, there is no point in debating it. So shutup and fight; all of you.

[JoshuaR]

What the hell are you on about? CnG is fighting in this war and has not shied away from damage, nor tried to deny obligations to get in on the winning side. Do they need to specifically be fighting the same alliances fighting us for it to "count"? War coalitions deploy people according to a strategy, not a "let's all go for the first treaty activated".

 

 

And yet NG and others are asking this very thing of IRON, even when they had more treaties on the other side? ;)

[ccabal86]

I still haven't gotten an answer on why it is IRON's responsibility to look after NG's broader coalition.

 

Also, James, it might be time to update your forum profile after 213 days spent at NG. Just saying.

[Joe Stupid]

That's easy, I never in a hundred years would put an ally who was clearly on the other side in such a position because of a technicality, like NG feeling like it had a claim that it was pre-empted. If I knew 5 alliances were going to be on me, and a sixth was on there because of an unposted treaty, I would have either taken the peace or let it ride out, but I wouldn't have tried to pull an ally who wanted to be on the other side, and had many reasons to be on the other side, into the mess with me.

 

I find this hilariously Ironic considering you hit NpO while we were allied to them in Rok.

[Aegon Targaryen]

A situation that benefits only LoSS at the expense of another party can't be called a "compromise".

Breaking news!

It's called war. It doesn't have to be fair, you NPO folks know this better than most.

[Beauty]

I find this hilariously Ironic considering you hit NpO while we were allied to them in Rok.

 

Eh... Gotta good point there honestly.

[Auctor]

I find this hilariously Ironic considering you hit NpO while we were allied to them in Rok.

not the only thing about that particular war that makes this being said funny.

[Overlord Shinnra]

I still haven't gotten an answer on why it is IRON's responsibility to look after NG's broader coalition.

 

Also, James, it might be time to update your forum profile after 213 days spent at NG. Just saying.

 

This is because its not relevant. IRON doesn't have a responsibility to look after NG's coalition. So what?

[ccabal86]

This is because its not relevant. IRON doesn't have a responsibility to look after NG's coalition. So what?

 

I'm just asking, because the LoSS incident was the only case where NG asked for our assistance. A white peace/no re-entry was negotiated (that could have gotten LoSS off NG completely, resolving the whole issue) but was declined by NG. The reason was that LoSS would just re-enter on other coalition members. Fair enough, but then this is no longer IRON's problem, as we are (like you said) not responsible for said coalition.

[Rush Sykes]

I'm just asking, because the LoSS incident was the only case where NG asked for our assistance. A white peace/no re-entry was negotiated (that could have gotten LoSS off NG completely, resolving the whole issue) but was declined by NG. The reason was that LoSS would just re-enter on other coalition members. Fair enough, but then this is no longer IRON's problem, as we are (like you said) not responsible for said coalition.

 

You say with a straight face that white peace (and there was not a no re-entry... it was a "we wont attack NG again this war") is an acceptable closure to the way LoSS entered? They should have gotten off without giving up a thing? Is that really how you keep the well-being of your allies ? "Ok guys, you have take enough pot shots at our ally, just stop now, ok? We will hug and make up."

[Enamel32]

Your comments here by my standards are hardly worth the bandwidth to comment on, yet I reply anyway.   <_<

 

NPO's former emperor, Brehon, though a lot of C&G.  So much, he pissed off some his allies in order to get you better terms at the end of the last war.  Now unless he was having imaginary conversations with people, I'm going to assume that you at least made an effort to make sure he knew the feeling was mutual.  Yet here we are some months later, and save perhaps for GATO's war dec on Invicta, where's the cavalry riding over the hill to rescue Pacifica?  You do have a treaty with them right?  as does TLR.  Sure they are optional treaties in your case and TLR's, but NPO was under attack after coming to NSO's aid long before you were involved in this fight.  Did you even offer to help NPO?

 

You made a choice to favor one treaty or set of treaties over another.  You picked a front to fight on and that was the end of it.  That's all I see IRON doing here.  Yeah you complain bitterly about IRON doing something you yourself have done.

Least we forget, it was ODN and Umbrella who chose to not defend Sparta when MK's propaganda machine was plotting against us and our allies.

[Omniscient1]

 
You say with a straight face that white peace (and there was not a no re-entry... it was a "we wont attack NG again this war") is an acceptable closure to the way LoSS entered? They should have gotten off without giving up a thing? Is that really how you keep the well-being of your allies ? "Ok guys, you have take enough pot shots at our ally, just stop now, ok? We will hug and make up."

What should they pay 40k tech? You literally sound like Goose and Liz defending that. "The way DT entered and you just want us to peace them out! How dare LoSS use an ODP to attack NG!".

[TIEIXIAIS]

I'm just asking, because the LoSS incident was the only case where NG asked for our assistance. A white peace/no re-entry was negotiated (that could have gotten LoSS off NG completely, resolving the whole issue) but was declined by NG. The reason was that LoSS would just re-enter on other coalition members. Fair enough, but then this is no longer IRON's problem, as we are (like you said) not responsible for said coalition.

You completely ignored my post
 

You said it yourself.  VE and co would have just shifted NS around, LoSS would have declared on another ally and we NG would be in the exact same position. That is not peace and not in the spirit of any treaty. You can not rightfully begin to humor that as a foul move on Non Grata's part. VE would have done the exact same in Non Grata's position.

[Rush Sykes]

What should they pay 40k tech? You literally sound like Goose and Liz defending that. "The way DT entered and you just want us to peace them out! How dare LoSS use an ODP to attack NG!".

Christ you draw the most silly parallels. Lets get 2 facts straight. 1st they didnt use an ODP. 2nd... no treaty of any kind existed. Pretend like those are not the facts all  you want. Nobody was asking for reps.. they simply asked for no re-entry. NG, apparently, were simply expected to take nothing.Everything has cause and effect. LoSS gave a giant middle finger to IRON (as did the entire coalition on the other side when they enabled this to happen).. the Einstein's in IRON are just too dumb to see it.

[Omniscient1]

Christ you draw the most silly parallels. Lets get 2 facts straight. 1st they didnt use an ODP. 2nd... no treaty of any kind existed. Pretend like those are not the facts all  you want. Nobody was asking for reps.. they simply asked for no re-entry. NG, apparently, were simply expected to take nothing.Everything has cause and effect. LoSS gave a giant middle finger to IRON (as did the entire coalition on the other side when they enabled this to happen).. the Einstein's in IRON are just too dumb to see it.

1. Yes they did. Unless you're arguing ODPs and ODAPS are mutually exclusive.

2. What is a treaty if not an agreement between two parties to assist each other in some way?

3. Anything NG offered likely got lost in the same stupid question being repeated every three seconds.

I don't think the middle finger has been missed, but this has blown up way out if proportion. Of course, every war something does. IRON acted in a rational way. I'm not sure how they can be faulted.

[The Big Bad]

I'm just asking, because the LoSS incident was the only case where NG asked for our assistance. A white peace/no re-entry was negotiated (that could have gotten LoSS off NG completely, resolving the whole issue) but was declined by NG. The reason was that LoSS would just re-enter on other coalition members. Fair enough, but then this is no longer IRON's problem, as we are (like you said) not responsible for said coalition.

 

If that is where it had stopped IRON would have had some dirt on its face but, it could have gotten up dusted itself off and recovered from it.  It is the next step where IRON went from just making some bad choices to straight out stupidville.  It is the next choice that has made IRON a complete joke.  You went on the offensive on an optional aggression clause against your alllies ally who was defending them.  You went out of your way to attack an alliance defending your allies.  What kind of idiot thought that was a good idea?  You tell me you think that is a good idea?  Out of all the other options out there this is the one you choose.  Let me ask you this who had this grand idea?  Because they played IRON like complete idiots and got away with it.  Brilliant move from a coaition that does not even like you to get you to destroy your reputation so completely.  The very worst part is that the coalition that your trying to appease is having a good laugh as you make fools of yourselves and burn every bridge around you.  

[Starcraftmazter]

We should use this thread to discuss what IRON's reps will be when they get rolled.

[Third King]

We should use this thread to discuss what IRON's reps will be when they get rolled.

 

Aye. I'm thinking reset all casualty counts at the minimum.

[smurthwaite]

You refused to honor an MDP with your ally, and now you are attacking their defensive forces? Holy shit, you are literally the scummiest alliance ever in CN.

Says the rogue.