Quick Note from MK

[Diogenes]

 
They may have "apologized," but let's not forget, this open apology is only after sanctions were put on MK.  They intertwined an apology with also trying to make GOD look bad for doing a similar act.  Had they came out and openly apologized for their "mistake" when it happened, or without using it to help throw mud at another alliance, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but that didn't happen.  Only reason they're doing so is to make them look like they're the ones in the right, instead of being the bad guys

There is no mistaking that sanctioning HoT was a screw-up on our end of things. Broadly, we do not like HoT or his alliance, but he should not have been sanctioned and that is something we will readily admit. Regardless of the opinions of the individual members of our coalition, the Mushroom Kingdom does not support the use of sanctions as a tool of war.

Our issue with GOD is linked directly to this fact; our sanctioning of HoT was, while wrong, an accident resulting of miscommunication. Conversely, GOD's sanctions placed against our nations were calculated and purposeful -- made purely to spite us. We do not desire a sanction war, but we will retaliate to attacks on our alliance and its members.

[Nintenderek]

The irony is even deeper, oyababy himself isn't on the MK AA, or at least he wasn't when he sanctioned HoT.

 

As was mentioned before, the hilarity of HoT on RIA AA is a rogue, but all the MK guys on joke AAs are full members.  Nothing to see here, move along.

 

I honestly didn't even look, but that is indeed hilarious.  No surprise really.  MK has always been an alliance of hypocrites.  They used to be able to hide it in the days of Karma because they actually had a pretty decent government back then.  Now sadly, even their government has fallen to that level it seems.

[Nintenderek]

There is no mistaking that sanctioning HoT was a screw-up on our end of things. Broadly, we do not like HoT or his alliance, but he should not have been sanctioned and that is something we will readily admit. Regardless of the opinions of the individual members of our coalition, the Mushroom Kingdom does not support the use of sanctions as a tool of war.

Our issue with GOD is linked directly to this fact; our sanctioning of HoT was, while wrong, an accident resulting of miscommunication. Conversely, GOD's sanctions placed against our nations were calculated and purposeful -- made purely to spite us. We do not desire a sanction war, but we will retaliate to attacks on our alliance and its members.

 

If you do not desire a sanction war, get your nations to their correct AAs.  It's my understanding from reading this thread, that the reason MK sanctioned HoT is because they didn't know he was a member of an enemy alliance when he attacked, even though he's wearing the proper AA.  I'm surprised more MK nations haven't been sanctioned, along with nations of several other alliances on their side, just for being rouges.  There's no way to tell if they aren't wearing the AA.

[Dochartaigh]

So again we see MK trying to play the victim after we see MK initiate the action. MK sanctions HoT and then claims GOD, allied to RIA, is the one who started the sanction war. No, MK started it by sanctioning HoT. That is a fact. It is well-known and even documented by MK that MK did in fact sanction HoT first and foremost. Thus, you have the catalyst. I would suggest that MK stop dropping the victim card and stop e-lawyering. Though after years of listening to MK mock and attempt to humiliate anyone else who did the same, it is amusing watching MK resort to the very same tactics that they mocked. It shows that simply put, they are no better than those they oppose. In fact, they are actually worse. I don't care about nation-building. In attitude, maturity, and what not, MK has shown themselves to be children playing at being grown ups.

[Commander shepard]

My two cents, not that anyone gives a fuck. :P

Had any member of any other alliance attacked EvU, then this would have never happened. But because of the bad blood between EvU and HoT, EvU asks for a sanction. o ya baba sanctions HoT without first finding out from RIA gov whether or not it is a sanctioned attack. HoT complains, nothing is settled diplomatically (which is such a surprise because we all know how diplomatically connected MK/GOD are </sarcasm>). GOD responds with sanctions, MK responds to sanctions with sanctions, and now we're here. It seems to me that at this point, the MK gov. is taking a sort of moral high-ground in a sense and asking that all sanctions in this incident be reversed and the issue set aside.

That is my understanding at least, and it makes sense for both parties to reverse the sanctions. I do have a couple of questions for MK though. One of which was asked earlier and may have already been answered, but I didn't read every page of this thread.

1) Did o ya baby talk to the MK gov about the sanction request? If no, then why not?
a) If yes, did the MK govtry to contact the RIA gov to figure out what had happened? If no, why not?
2) If a senator from EQ was sanctioning DH/NG members who have jumped AA's during the war and who attack an EQ nation, would that be justified in your eyes?

 

 

MK isn't taking the moral ground, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

MK took 2 eyes so far and the other side only took 1 eye, hence the other side has the moral ground until they take another eye by which time both sides will be equal morally.

[tamerlane]

I honestly didn't even look, but that is indeed hilarious.  No surprise really.  MK has always been an alliance of hypocrites.  They used to be able to hide it in the days of Karma because they actually had a pretty decent government back then.  Now sadly, even their government has fallen to that level it seems.

 

 

You continue to shine your wisdom throughout these forums, enlightening those of us who are privileged enough to gaze upon your contributions.

[Dochartaigh]

They briefly left MK to join the alliance Doombird Doomcave, They rejoined us ~2 weeks ago. We are not at war with DT, NEW, or Sparta. 

 

So they left and became rogues and are now paying for their actions as a rogue. I don't give two shits if they rejoined MK. Ohs well. The fact remains they went rogue and that is all that matters. So, in my opinion, they deserve their sanctions and if MK does not want their members sanctioned, then MK should perhaps keep all their members on the MK aa instead of on rogue AAs. Unless of course, the MK members always remain MK members (which I have heard as well) in which case, when those two hit DT, NEW, Sparta; MK did in fact hit DT, NEW, and Sparta.

 

So which one is it? Is every single MK member on an aa outside of MK considered a former member and a rogue? Or are they considered full-fledged members of MK and thus their actions 100% supported, condoned, approved, and backed by MK? Because guess what, you cannot have it both ways.

[Nintenderek]

You continue to shine your wisdom throughout these forums, enlightening those of us who are privileged enough to gaze upon your contributions.

 

You can use all the sarcasm you want.  It doesn't change the fact that I'm right.

[ChairmanHal]

Boy am I surprised that an issue between MK and GOD got slightly out of hand and couldn't be resolved with your neat little 3 point plan, you'd almost be forgiven for thinking they don't get on at all and in fact have a bitter vendetta against one another.

 

Again, why would they apologise for sanctioning HoT if it was not made obvious to them that he was actually a member of an alliance by officials from the alliance in question? This could have been all settled behind closed doors if that happened, neither alliance attempted to resolve this amicably because it's in neither of their interests to do so.

 

Also with regards to point 6; how are we to know who we're at war with, does attack on one attack on all still stand? is that a policy that your entire coalition have united on? If so why have separate DoW's been issued by members of your coalition?

 

It'd be easier to know who we're officially at war with if your coalition was capable of leaving a paper trail instead of using vague slogans.

 

Anyone could see this day coming the moment that MK decided it would be great lulz to move off Aqua to Maroon.  The question is not how it started, but how you're going to keep it from blowing up.

 

Has HoT ever left the RIA AA during this war?  When some noticed the DoW was RIA approached and what was their response?  It's not RIA's responsibility to initiate that conversation, it is the responsibility of the alliance (and/or their protector) he attacked--assuming that they give a flying fark of course.

 

Side note: damn you for making me appear to defend HoT   :facepalm:

 

How should you know who you are at war with?  Well see that's a tricky question, given all all the AA hopping going on by your side, which we're supposed to treat as normal and not as the actions of rogues.  But here is a handy guide I like to use:

 

Step 1. Is someone shooting at you or declared their intention to do so formally?

No - you are not at war

Yes - you are at war

 

Step 2. Do you know if this is a small party with snacks or a larger affair with alliances clashing in an epic struggle?

No - find out

Yes - enjoy

[Schattenmann]

.GOD responds with sanctions, MK responds to sanctions with sanctions, and now we're here. It seems to me that at this point, the MK gov. is taking a sort of moral high-ground in a sense and asking that all sanctions in this incident be reversed and the issue set aside.

That is my understanding at least, and it makes sense for both parties to reverse the sanctions. I do have a couple of questions for MK though. One of which was asked earlier and may have already been answered, but I didn't read every page of this thread.

 

 

Our issue with GOD is linked directly to this fact; our sanctioning of HoT was, while wrong, an accident resulting of miscommunication. Conversely, GOD's sanctions placed against our nations were calculated and purposeful -- made purely to spite us. We do not desire a sanction war, but we will retaliate to attacks on our alliance and its members.

 

 

The assignment of the sanction to GOD as some kind of pernicious retaliatory move is wrong.  Cult of Justitia requested the sanction as per normal practice in the case of rogues, basing our request on the legal position/opinion of the MK Senator and government. 

 

 

There is no mistaking that sanctioning HoT was a screw-up on our end of things. Broadly, we do not like HoT or his alliance, but he should not have been sanctioned and that is something we will readily admit. Regardless of the opinions of the individual members of our coalition, the Mushroom Kingdom does not support the use of sanctions as a tool of war.

And yet MK sanctioned as a tool of war, insists that GOD began the sanction issue, and attempted to sanction the government of GOD in retaliation.

I can appreciate the conciliatory tone, honestly, but own up or don't.  You were wrong or you weren't.

 

 

The request sent to several Senators was exactly:

 

On 2/25, the Mushroom Kingdom Senator sanctioned HeroofTime55 as a "rogue" due to his attack on a member of Everfree Union, an alliance at war with RIA's ally.  Despite the failure of HoT55's government to release him as a rogue, or condemn his actions, MK sanctioned anyway. MK continues to mock longstanding inter-alliance normal understanding of the use of the senate: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/115591-rogue-senators-and-the-sanction-war/

 

While I realize HoT55 is a loudmouth that no one likes, I can see beyond the small question of personality to the Big Question of the Senate.  MK has taken its war to the Senate, justifying its sanction based on the lack of a declaration of war to underpin Herooftime's attack on Everfree Union regardless of HoT's government's treaties.

 

Early this morning, two nations of the Mushroom Kingdom began attacking the Cult of Justitia without a declaration of war.  Justitia's Cult is at war with MK's ally Umbrella, true, but MK rejects the right of individual nations to defend their governments' allies without a declaration of war.

 

In this matter, I must accept the position of the Mushroom Kingdom's government, and as follows I respectfully request the sanction of these two rogue states who have attacked the Cult of Justitia with no cause, and outside the legal position of their own government and Senator.

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=197795

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=114307

 

With thanks,

Schattenmann

Presbyter, Cult of Justitia

 

This is no honeycombed conspiracy, it is a very simply matter of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Schattenmann

[The Warrior]

There is no mistaking that sanctioning HoT was a screw-up on our end of things. Broadly, we do not like HoT or his alliance, but he should not have been sanctioned and that is something we will readily admit. Regardless of the opinions of the individual members of our coalition, the Mushroom Kingdom does not support the use of sanctions as a tool of war.

Our issue with GOD is linked directly to this fact; our sanctioning of HoT was, while wrong, an accident resulting of miscommunication. Conversely, GOD's sanctions placed against our nations were calculated and purposeful -- made purely to spite us. We do not desire a sanction war, but we will retaliate to attacks on our alliance and its members.

Refreshing to see the first pargraph in your response. Thank you for that.

 

Secondly - GOD's reaction, while it may have been purposeful, was purposeful solely because of the mis-communication in the first place. It was purposeful because of the original action. Had HoT not been sanctioned, there would have been no reason for GOD to have to respond with sanctions. In which case, had they done so, then your point about it being with malicious intent would be true. Based on the particular events of this situation it appears to be nothing more than a response to the initial sanctioning and therefore your point about the response being strictly done out of spite is false.

[White Chocolate]

Regardless of who sanctioned first and for what reason, I personally feel no sympathy for either HoT or MK.  The possibility that sanctions would be used in war is both entirely foreseeable (OOC: as of nations being able to chose resources, thus altering the need for team color cooperation between alliances) and also relatively easy with some coordination and education to guard against. 

 

Thus, if a nation and/or alliance doesn't plan for this type of attack, that's their own fault. 

 

Like it or not, relying on any other alliance to hold off on the use of some potential attack just because it doesn't fit within one's sense of ethics or even what (at the time of the war) is considered "community standard" has time and time again been shown in CN history to be a bad strategic move.   Community standards change and there is always a first time. 

 

I'm not saying I like it, I am saying it is what it is.  

Edited March 6, 2013 by White Chocolate

[Diogenes]

 The assignment of the sanction to GOD as some kind of pernicious retaliatory move is wrong.  Cult of Justitia requested the sanction as per normal practice in the case of rogues, basing our request on the legal position/opinion of the MK Senator and government. 

The government of the Mushroom Kingdom does not, and never has, officially endorsed sanctions as a tool of war. Our sanctioning of HoT was a mistake -- one which has since been rectified.

And yet MK sanctioned as a tool of war, insists that GOD began the sanction issue, and attempted to sanction the government of GOD in retaliation.
I can appreciate the conciliatory tone, honestly, but own up or don't.  You were wrong or you weren't.

The Mushroom Kingdom was not motivated to sanction HoT because of the war. We sanctioned HoT because we were told that he was a rogue and believed him to be one. The difference between our sanction and the sanctions placed against us, as your message sent to various team senators highlights, is that our sanction was an honest mistake, whereas the ones you sponsored and GOD instituted were retaliatory and malicious -- a response, at their core, to our accidental sanctioning of HoT.

[ChairmanHal]

The government of the Mushroom Kingdom does not, and never has, officially endorsed sanctions as a tool of war. Our sanctioning of HoT was a mistake -- one which has since been rectified.


The Mushroom Kingdom was not motivated to sanction HoT because of the war. We sanctioned HoT because we were told that he was a rogue and believed him to be one. The difference between our sanction and the sanctions placed against us, as your message sent to various team senators highlights, is that our sanction was an honest mistake, whereas the ones you sponsored and GOD instituted were retaliatory and malicious -- a response, at their core, to our accidental sanctioning of HoT.

 

Because no one from MK, Umbrella, or GOONS has ever sanctioned people as a tool of war in the past, whether said sanction was actually justified or not...am I correct?

[IYIyTh]

The way diogenes talks makes me melt.

[Schattenmann]

The Mushroom Kingdom was not motivated to sanction HoT because of the war. We sanctioned HoT because we were told that he was a rogue and believed him to be one. The difference between our sanction and the sanctions placed against us, as your message sent to various team senators highlights, is that our sanction was an honest mistake, whereas the ones you sponsored and GOD instituted were retaliatory and malicious -- a response, at their core, to our accidental sanctioning of HoT.

 

If you believe HoT to be a rogue, then lebubu and WhatOnceWas were also rogues.  And that is why the sanctions were placed, end of story. 

If you want to actually believe that you are victims, or play victims, that is your prerogative.  The rest of us know what the reality is.

[Diogenes]

 
If you believe HoT to be a rogue, then lebubu and WhatOnceWas were also rogues.  And that is why the sanctions were placed, end of story. 
If you want to actually believe that you are victims, or play victims, that is your prerogative.  The rest of us know what the reality is.

We do not believe HoT to be a rogue: we believed, at one point in the past, but no longer, that he was one. I do not genuinely believe you ever thought lebubu and negev (WhatOnceWas) to be rogues, or were naive enough to think we would consider them as such. Again, when we sanctioned HoT, it was unmistakably and irrefutably wrong, but it was an accident -- the sanctioning of our members by GOD was intentional, and the idea to do so was conceived entirely out of spite.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Regardless of who sanctioned first and for what reason, I personally feel no sympathy for either HoT or MK.  The possibility that sanctions would be used in war is both entirely foreseeable (OOC: as of nations being able to chose resources, thus altering the need for team color cooperation between alliances) and also relatively easy with some coordination and education to guard against. 

 

Thus, if a nation and/or alliance doesn't plan for this type of attack, that's their own fault. 

 

Like it or not, relying on any other alliance to hold off on the use of some potential attack just because it doesn't fit within one's sense of ethics or even what (at the time of the war) is considered "community standard" has time and time again been shown in CN history to be a bad strategic move.   Community standards change and there is always a first time. 

 

I'm not saying I like it, I am saying it is what it is.  

Amen.

 

To be honest, the non-declarations of war have blurred lines. On both ends you have people declaring wars off AAs, alliances not assuming the wars they are declaring in-game yet demanding their members be considered as full members and not rogues, etc.

 

It's nonsensical. Either form new alliances for the sake of warfare, alliances that should be fully recognized and taken to task or assume your war declarations. This new trend of affairs reeks of cowardice.

[Dcrews]

You're missing the point. If they wanted to start a sanction war with GOD or RIA they would have sanctioned an obvious member of GOD or RIA (like one wearing the actual AA). Stop with the melodrama about ~horrible precedents~ it was a misplaced sanction not genocide.

Oh, did someone accidentally hit the sanction button? No? Then please stop posting. Trying to bs away an underhanded move doesn't fly with anyone who doesn't drink your cool aid.

[Indian Bob]

Amen.

 

To be honest, the non-declarations of war have blurred lines. On both ends you have people declaring wars off AAs, alliances not assuming the wars they are declaring in-game yet demanding their members be considered as full members and not rogues, etc.

 

It's nonsensical. Either form new alliances for the sake of warfare, alliances that should be fully recognized and taken to task or assume your war declarations. This new trend of affairs reeks of cowardice.

 

So your guys off AA are cowards?

[Geerland]

You should just be glad I'm not crown prince of MK, anyone posting on the OWF with faux moral outrage would be sanctioned.

Oh, and all of CoJ, as they loooove the attention.

[Link Gaetz]

So your guys off AA are cowards?

Took the words out of my mouth.  I've already fought one TOP government member who has been hopping AAs regularly.  But, I'm sure they'll have some explanation of why it's ok for them to do it.

[ShamWOW]

  MK isn't taking the moral ground, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.MK took 2 eyes so far and the other side only took 1 eye, hence the other side has the moral ground until they take another eye by which time both sides will be equal morally.

Perhaps our idea of a moral highground is different. An eye for an eye, in the sense of sanction me and I'll sanction you, isn't a bad thing or unexpected at all from GOD or MK. I was referring to coming out and admitting a mistake and offering to remove the sanctions if theirs are removed seems to be the moral highground, which in CN would be better described as a good PR move.

[AirMe]

While Umbrella, MK, Non Grata, etc have devolved to the point that you can't even use alliance affiliations, in the rest of the world, your AA declares your membership.  When you sanctioned HoT, you knew you were sanctioning a member of RIA, and if there was any question about his membership, it was incumbent upon MK to ask RIA.

 

 

Not at all valid.  Again: MK started this, what follows is due to MK's actions.  Not GATO, not Ai, not Everfree Union.  Mushroom Kingdom. 

MK is going to need to get used to accountability, I know it's going to be tough on them, and their allies, but I'm sure that when MK needs help with the transition, NPO would be happy to continue to host talks.  I know we in CoJ had more than a chuckle on that point.

 

 

 

Your e-lawyer is showing, Johnny.

EQ posted a clear doctrine at the beginning of this war to make things perfectly clear for everyone.  ~Competence~ has rejected that doctrine and refuses to recognize it.  That is your decision to make.  But you cannot turn around and then act on it when it suits you, and argue about it when it does not.  That is exactly the sort of cutesy poopoo whose accumulation over the past few years made it so easy to kick off this war.

 

I am truly sorry, AirMe, but you are a witless toadie whose brain turns off on sight of allies.  It's a pity, because you can be an intelligent guy, and the next few months are going to require critical thinking.

 

 

A little more pedantry could have saved MK this headache.

 

If I were a mindless toadie I would be hailing every move MK makes. Which is not the case. I tend to call a spade a spade. Your reply to me is the typical one I get when I don't respond to a persons liking or in a way that they disapprove of.    

 

Sanctioning has never been an acceptable form of warfare and you know it.  

 

 

 

I expected better of you. At the very least you could have attempted to talk to MK leadership to find out what was going on. But you didn't do that.  You went to the alliance that perhaps hates MK the most and got them to go along with your foolish little plan. MK issued an apology to HoT. Was it late yes? Was it probably forced by the sanctioning of MK nations? Possibly. But that is not something I have information on. Either way you never bothered talking to MK about the issue. 

 

I hope I never see the day where sanctioning becomes an acceptable tactic to use against an opponent in this world.

 

So let me reiterate: I think you are an idiot for the course of action that you took. I would still think you are an idiot for this course of action even if you did so against one of my enemies. 

Edited March 6, 2013 by AirMe

[Rhizoctonia]

How about...people actually stay in the alliance they are apart of, and quit splintering off into smaller made up alliances for the purpose of "tactical" fighting.  This whole idea of people leaving the main alliance to make a smaller one is beyond stupid to me.  Stand behind the alliance you're in, and the AA. 

 

Many in these "splinter" groups are attacking alliances that the alliance they are "regular members"of aren't at war with.  It's been proven many times that this is true, and it's really a whole bunch of sh*t.  All these individual small alliances should in fact be treated as rogues...and also should have to negoiate their own terms without any assistance or help from the alliance they "techincally" still members of.  If leaders condone people to leave their alliance for a temporary smaller one, and then in fact attack alliances that their orginial alliance is not at war with, they should be treated as rogues, and the leaders should pronounce them rogue.  If you're going to allow such activities, then quit beating around the bush, and declare on the alliance they're switching AA's to attack.