Announcement from the New Sith Order

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1317703240' post='2815650']
Tetris didn't spy at all. Spying is a willful act and an act of war. All that happened was that a few Tetris members passed along information they were given out of the blue, which isn't spying -- it is wikileaksing. And even then, Tetris removed those members from government and sought to make amends. Legion would've accepted that if they suddenly hadn't felt the urge to stumble into a war.[/quote]

So says Tetris. My recommendation: don't collaborate with spies and publish the information they gather for lulz. You might get whacked on the head.

[wickedj]

[quote name='rodrod' timestamp='1317753068' post='2816284']
I'll take it <.<
[/quote]
If you get in this war i so want to nuke USN

[heggo]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1317757915' post='2816328']
So says Tetris. My recommendation: don't collaborate with spies and publish the information they gather for lulz. You might get whacked on the head.
[/quote]
Only the basest of distortions could suggest that Tetris' commitment to freedom of information has anything in common with spying. They're just reporters is all. Wikileaksers, if you prefer. Little block shaped Julian Assanges. I don't see why you think standing up for freedom and newspapers is such a bad idea. And besides, it's not like they published anything hurtful anyway. It was clearly just an excuse for Legion to strut around and pretend it knows when it's a good idea to start wars.


Also, this:

[quote name='AtheistRepublican' timestamp='1317703305' post='2815652']
While I am not jumping for joy at two of our former allies now at war...I cannot help but laugh at the people in this thread who do not understand the NSO or what they stand for. "B-but spying...!"

Tetris could have tech raided Legion while poaching members while fully admitting to and endorsing the spying (as opposed to now playing the "victim" card, but I digress...) and all this would not have mattered to the NSO. They love war, and will gladly take the opportunity to war - especially against someone they hate like Legion. Because peace is a [i]lie[/i].
[/quote]

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317757626' post='2816325']
Regardless of which side is winning and whether more Tetris allies will join in, NSO was going to honor their treaty here and we'll see how things go from there. NSO has fought in losing wars and held out for a long time in the past, so I'm sure they'll enjoy fighting Legion regardless of how it turns out and which side ends up at a disadvantage. Good luck to both sides in this and enjoy the war.
[/quote]

TETRIS! MAKING ME AGREE WITH METHRAGE NOW!

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1317758423' post='2816333']
Only the basest of distortions could suggest that Tetris' commitment to freedom of information has anything in common with spying. They're just reporters is all. Wikileaksers, if you prefer. Little block shaped Julian Assanges. I don't see why you think standing up for freedom and newspapers is such a bad idea. And besides, it's not like they published anything hurtful anyway. It was clearly just an excuse for Legion to strut around and pretend it knows when it's a good idea to start wars.


Also, this:
[/quote]
Then act like the thing you quoted second.

This has to be the most piss-poor excuse I've ever read, and I really hope it's more your vested interest in Tetris talking rather than you just being that incredibly thick.

History has never differentiated between the sources and disseminators of information, they have always been held equally as culpable and subject to the same strong retribution.

Spying is the oldest CB in the world and can hardly be called an unjust one. Tetris is like a 3rd grade kid who stole the 8th grade kid's lunch, spat in his face, and called him names and somehow didn't expect to get punched right in the face. Now they're calling their big brothers in because they've been "unjustly attacked".

I don't begrudge the NSO for going in, in fact I welcome them, the party gets a lot more interesting then, but don't be throwing BS like this around.

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1317758423' post='2816333']
Only the basest of distortions could suggest that Tetris' commitment to freedom of information has anything in common with spying. They're just reporters is all. Wikileaksers, if you prefer. Little block shaped Julian Assanges. I don't see why you think standing up for freedom and newspapers is such a bad idea. And besides, it's not like they published anything hurtful anyway. It was clearly just an excuse for Legion to strut around and pretend it knows when it's a good idea to start wars. [/quote]
That's a pretty picture you're painting there, but you know that's not how things work.

Tetris did not simply act as a "reporter", passing out information to the public, they deliberately rubbed it in the face of Legion, acting with a high degree of smugness as though the information they have is gold. And freedom has nothing to do with this, it's about sovereignty. Tetris breached Legion's sovereignty as an alliance, doing nothing more than attempting to lower Legion's reputation even further. This in itself warrants the punch in the face Tetris is now recieving, never mind the act of collaborating with spies, the act of which frankly makes Tetris an alliance not to be trusted.

[heggo]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1317759134' post='2816338']
Then act like the thing you quoted second.

This has to be the most piss-poor excuse I've ever read, and I really hope it's more your vested interest in Tetris talking rather than you just being that incredibly thick.

History has never differentiated between the sources and disseminators of information, they have always been held equally as culpable and subject to the same strong retribution.

Spying is the oldest CB in the world and can hardly be called an unjust one. Tetris is like a 3rd grade kid who stole the 8th grade kid's lunch, spat in his face, and called him names and somehow didn't expect to get punched right in the face. Now they're calling their big brothers in because they've been "unjustly attacked".

I don't begrudge the NSO for going in, in fact I welcome them, the party gets a lot more interesting then, but don't be throwing BS like this around.
[/quote]
Don't be silly about history, messengers have always been thought of differently as the actual issuer of the message. So it can't possibly be spying. And besides, if it really were a CB, wouldn't someone have used it against the NSO when we did the exact same thing to Legion a few months ago? Why, back then, there wasn't any bother about it all. I'm convinced this was all just a misunderstanding resulting from Tetris' offer to do whatever it takes for Legion to make up for this whole affair. That was nice, but they must have accidentally convinced Legion they did something wrong in the process.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1317758423' post='2816333']
Only the basest of distortions could suggest that Tetris' commitment to freedom of information has anything in common with spying. They're just reporters is all.[/quote]

You actually got that out with a straight face, I'm impressed.

[quote]Wikileaksers, if you prefer. Little block shaped Julian Assanges. I don't see why you think standing up for freedom and newspapers is such a bad idea. And besides, it's not like they published anything hurtful anyway. It was clearly just an excuse for Legion to strut around and pretend it knows when it's a good idea to start wars. [/quote]

[i]OOC: I have my opinions on what should happen to Julian Assanges...most involve the families of those who have been/will be killed because of his "reporting" suing him off the web and out of business permanently.[/i]

You're just annoyed because Legion went from nerdy kid everyone loves to laugh at to something resembling a semi-respectable alliance. Regardless of how this war ends, and I've already stated I don't think Legion will win because additional forces will probably come to the field, they will have that to carry forward.

[heggo]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317759283' post='2816340']
... doing nothing more than attempting to lower Legion's reputation even further. This in itself warrants the punch in the face Tetris is now recieving, ...
[/quote]
Wow, I'm shocked that anybody can believe this anymore. Attempting to lower Legion's reputation is a just cause for war? Really? Maybe that would fly if you were a Pacifican emperor back in their glory days, but now-a-days we have a little thing called respect for other peoples' opinions mister. And besides, by your logic, the CB Legion has should be against themselves, not Tetris, since Tetris only was the messenger for Legion's posts. Legion can't besmirch itself to the brink of war, can it?

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1317759134' post='2816338']
Then act like the thing you quoted second.

This has to be the most piss-poor excuse I've ever read, and I really hope it's more your vested interest in Tetris talking rather than you just being that incredibly thick.

History has never differentiated between the sources and disseminators of information, they have always been held equally as culpable and subject to the same strong retribution.

Spying is the oldest CB in the world and can hardly be called an unjust one. Tetris is like a 3rd grade kid who stole the 8th grade kid's lunch, spat in his face, and called him names and somehow didn't expect to get punched right in the face. Now they're calling their big brothers in because they've been "unjustly attacked".

I don't begrudge the NSO for going in, in fact I welcome them, the party gets a lot more interesting then, but don't be throwing BS like this around.
[/quote]
We're in the war, so I'd say we are acting like what he quoted second.

And if you want to get down to the nitty gritty of the CB, Legion attacked because Tetris disseminated the information. Tetris weren't the ones who actually collected the information, so there's no damage to Legion from Tetris there. The information was apparently circulated on CNtel before Tetris disseminated it, so there's no damage to Legion from Tetris there either. Now, sure Legion can define the dissemination of their private information as an act of war, but if the info was already public, does that really hold true in this case? I would argue it's a lot more shaky than some of you are trying to portray.

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1317759639' post='2816349']
Wow, I'm shocked that anybody can believe this anymore. Attempting to lower Legion's reputation is a just cause for war? Really? Maybe that would fly if you were a Pacifican emperor back in their glory days, but now-a-days we have a little thing called respect for other peoples' opinions mister. And besides, by your logic, the CB Legion has should be against themselves, not Tetris, since Tetris only was the messenger for Legion's posts. Legion can't besmirch itself to the brink of war, can it?
[/quote]
I'm not saying that Legion's reputation being lowered is a just cause for war, I'm saying that Legion's sovereignty being breached is a just cause for war. If you actually read what I said and not [i]into[/i] what I said, you'd know that.

Tetris published information passed to them by spies who were actively spying on the Legion. Is there any way I can make this more clear cut for you sir?

[Beau Vine]

It'd seem, Tetris with some reluctant help from NSO (most of whom have no intention of beating around the bushes) makes the argument that:

While spying is an act of war, Legion is committing fallacy by abusing homonymous relation between two different (in Cyberverse) actions: spying, conducting [ooc-ingame] operations like Gather Intelligence, Destroy Nukes, Change DefCon etc; and spying, leaking information from private boards.
Validity of this argument aside, I'd like to remind you about [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105532&st=120&p=2808454&#entry2808454"]this little morsel.[/url]

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1317759453' post='2816343']
Don't be silly about history, messengers have always been thought of differently as the actual issuer of the message. So it can't possibly be spying. And besides, if it really were a CB, wouldn't someone have used it against the NSO when we did the exact same thing to Legion a few months ago? Why, back then, there wasn't any bother about it all. I'm convinced this was all just a misunderstanding resulting from Tetris' offer to do whatever it takes for Legion to make up for this whole affair. That was nice, but they must have accidentally convinced Legion they did something wrong in the process.
[/quote]
Not really. How many people have been declared upon for "possessing stolen screenshots" or "sharing stolen screenshots". My memory is fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure there have been at least 2 global wars started for those exact reasons.

I honestly don't know what happened between the NSO and Legion a few months ago because I've been on an extended vacation, but I fail to see how it matters. The reality is that Tetris tried to mess with the Legion under the " do something about it" banner, and something was done. They and you have no right to !@#$%* and moan about it.

[Heft]

The information was 1) completely useless and had nothing of value in it, and 2) already at least semi-public, so yea, this is definitely more about Legion getting its feelings hurt and being prodded into standing up for its "honor" after months of being harangued and laughed at by most of the people now complimenting them.

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1317759901' post='2816355']
The information was 1) completely useless and had nothing of value in it, and 2) already at least semi-public, so yea, this is definitely more about Legion getting its feelings hurt and being prodded into standing up for its "honor" after months of being harangued and laughed at by most of the people now complimenting them.
[/quote]
If someone had posted [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105532"]this[/url] about my alliance and their alliance "stood by them" rather than immediately expelling them, they would be facing an update blitz.

If someone had posted [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105532"]this[/url] about NSO and their alliance "stood by them" rather than immediately expelling them, they would be facing an update blitz.

Are you really going to say that [i]just[/i] because it's Legion it's somehow not valid?

Lemme take a moment to clarify my position:

I don't care that NSO is in the war, they had a treaty, they hate the Legion, fine. I do care that all of this is being done under some pseudo moralistic shroud attempting to paint Tetris as the victim. Man up and practice what you preach: kick some ass because you can, don't try to justify it with these weak-ass arguments.

Edited October 4, 2011 by deth2munkies

[Hereno]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317759893' post='2816352']
Tetris published information passed to them by spies who were actively spying on the Legion. Is there any way I can make this more clear cut for you sir?
[/quote]

You couldn't make it any more wrong, either.

[heggo]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1317759898' post='2816354']
I honestly don't know what happened between the NSO and Legion a few months ago because I've been on an extended vacation, but I fail to see how it matters. The reality is that Tetris tried to mess with the Legion under the " do something about it" banner, and something was done. They and you have no right to !@#$%* and moan about it.
[/quote]
Why, 'twas but a few months ago that we did exactly what Tetris did to them. They didn't mind then so I don't see why they're suddenly flip flopping about it. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to settle for Legion getting rolled by two alliances that are cumulatively half their size. Unless they need to call in allies to deal with we lil' guys.


[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1317760138' post='2816357']
Are you really going to say that [i]just[/i] because it's Legion it's somehow not valid?
[/quote]
I think I'll go with a yes.

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1317760376' post='2816358']
You couldn't make it any more wrong, either.
[/quote]
The irony of that is so heavy my arms feel like they're weighed down with concrete as I say this.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1317746454' post='2816172']
Anarchy is a very small aspect of the type of conflict we see nowadays. You can't measure how crippling an initial attack is by anarchy alone.
[/quote]
First-day anarchies are still useful, as they prevent the other alliance from launching wars.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317752000' post='2816272']
Aggression and defense are terms that have always been twisted to suit people's agendas at the time, you know this as well as anyone Schatt. Legion will claim Tetris started the war when they published the screenshots, our side will claim that Legion started it when they declared war. In the end, there is no objective truth, only the subjective truth that our respective allies will act upon when they decide to enter the war or not.
[/quote]
Personally, this is why I wish people would just stop using the terms, as they have been twisted so often as to have become effectively meaningless.

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1317752928' post='2816283']
It's fun though, no?
[/quote]
No. But it is funny, as long as you don't participate but merely watch.

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1317760441' post='2816359']
Why, 'twas but a few months ago that we did exactly what Tetris did to them. They didn't mind then so I don't see why they're suddenly flip flopping about it. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to settle for Legion getting rolled by two alliances that are cumulatively half their size. Unless they need to call in allies to deal with we lil' guys.



I think I'll go with a yes.
[/quote]
Tch, to think I actually had some respect for you guys at one point.


Ahh well, no use talking to a brick wall with no logical mind.

[Banedon]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317759710' post='2816351']
We're in the war, so I'd say we are acting like what he quoted second.

And if you want to get down to the nitty gritty of the CB, Legion attacked because Tetris disseminated the information. Tetris weren't the ones who actually collected the information, so there's no damage to Legion from Tetris there. The information was apparently circulated on CNtel before Tetris disseminated it, so there's no damage to Legion from Tetris there either. Now, sure Legion can define the dissemination of their private information as an act of war, but if the info was already public, does that really hold true in this case? I would argue it's a lot more shaky than some of you are trying to portray.
[/quote]

Funny. As I recall NpO in Doomhouse were rolled because they were accused of accepted stolen information. Tetris not only accepted it, they spread it around to a wider audience.

Spying and screenshots are also what got Karma going and NPO rolled.

The sudden rally to defend Tetris and it's actions is very entertaining to watch. I was not aware that some of their defenders were quite so flexible, both physically and morally.

As to why NSO got a pass a few weeks/months ago and Tetris didn't, I have a theory. A few of our younger, more implusive, hotter tempered, and simpler minded members got into a flamewar contest with NSO on these boards. NSO responded, did it better, and then upped the ante. As much as we hated it, there was a school of thought that said we brought it on ourselves. Tetris has no such excuse and therefore they get no repreive.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Banedon

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1317759898' post='2816354']
Not really. How many people have been declared upon for "possessing stolen screenshots" or "sharing stolen screenshots". My memory is fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure there have been at least 2 global wars started for those exact reasons.

I honestly don't know what happened between the NSO and Legion a few months ago because I've been on an extended vacation, but I fail to see how it matters. The reality is that Tetris tried to mess with the Legion under the " do something about it" banner, and something was done. They and you have no right to !@#$%* and moan about it.
[/quote]

why yes, who can forget the war where we all learned "Everyone accepts Screenshots", where NPO was subjected to 10 months of surrender terms and reps by Karma for attacking an alliance who accepted intel?

If we keep this logic and precedent, then well sorry Legion, it looks like 10 months of reps and surrender terms for you. Brought to you by deth2munkies.

[Banedon]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317759710' post='2816351']
We're in the war, so I'd say we are acting like what he quoted second.

And if you want to get down to the nitty gritty of the CB, Legion attacked because Tetris disseminated the information. Tetris weren't the ones who actually collected the information, so there's no damage to Legion from Tetris there. The information was apparently circulated on CNtel before Tetris disseminated it, so there's no damage to Legion from Tetris there either. Now, sure Legion can define the dissemination of their private information as an act of war, but if the info was already public, does that really hold true in this case? I would argue it's a lot more shaky than some of you are trying to portray.
[/quote]

Funny. As I recall NpO in Doomhouse were rolled because they were accused of accepted stolen information. Tetris not only accepted it, they spread it around to a wider audience.

Spying and screenshots are also what got Karma going and NPO rolled.

The sudden rally to defend Tetris and it's actions is very entertaining to watch. I was not aware that some of their defenders were quite so flexible, both physically and morally.

As to why NSO got a pass a few weeks/months ago and Tetris didn't, I have a theory. A few of our younger, more implusive, hotter tempered, and simpler minded members got into a flamewar contest with NSO on these boards. NSO responded, did it better, and then upped the ante. As much as we hated it, there was a school of thought that said we brought it on ourselves. Tetris has no such excuse and therefore they get no repreive.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Banedon

[Heft]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1317760138' post='2816357']
I don't care that NSO is in the war, they had a treaty, they hate the Legion, fine. I do care that all of this is being done under some pseudo moralistic shroud attempting to paint Tetris as the victim. Man up and practice what you preach: kick some ass because you can, don't try to justify it with these weak-ass arguments.
[/quote]
We haven't actually attempted to paint Tetris as a victim, we've simply been countered the idea that Legion are victims or that this war is one of necessity rather than choice. At the same time, we're perfectly fine with the choice Legion has made, after all we've been at peace for nearly half a year now and that's just not acceptable.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1317760782' post='2816367']
Funny. As I recall NpO in Doomhouse were rolled because they merely accepted information. Tetris not only accepted it, they spread it around to a wider audience.

Spying and screenshots are also what got Karma going and NPO rolled.

The sudden rally to defend Tetris and it's actions is very entertaining to watch. I was not aware that some of their defenders were quite so flexible, both physically and morally.

As to why NSO got a pass a few weeks/months ago and Tetris didn't, I have a theory. A few of our younger, more implusive, hotter tempered, and simpler minded members got into a pissing contest with NSO on the boards. NSO responded, and to be honest, we brought it on ourselves. Tetris has no such excuse and therefore they get no repreive.
[/quote]
But your info was already public on CNtel. Will you be seeking out all those who read it there, for accepting information? What about all the people who read the screenshots here? What about people who linked others to the thread? They spread it to a wider audience. Where do you draw the line? Calling accepting and disseminating information already in the public domain an act of war is a pretty big stretch.