Announcement from the New Sith Order

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1317761255' post='2816372']
Funny. As I recall NpO in Doomhouse were rolled because they merely accepted information. Tetris not only accepted it, they spread it around to a wider audience.

Spying and screenshots are also what got Karma going and NPO rolled.
[/quote]

No, the VE-Polar war was started because Dajobo suggested to Lennox that he spy on VE (however serious). We rejected the premise as phony and a set-up, and did not fight for VE's side.

NPO attacked another alliance for accepting information, and got 10 months of surrender terms and reps for it.

[Partisan]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1317761255' post='2816372']
Funny. As I recall NpO in Doomhouse were rolled because they merely accepted information. Tetris not only accepted it, they spread it around to a wider audience.

Spying and screenshots are also what got Karma going and NPO rolled.

The sudden rally to defend Tetris and it's actions is very entertaining to watch. I was not aware that some of their defenders were quite so flexible, both physically and morally.

As to why NSO got a pass a few weeks/months ago and Tetris didn't, I have a theory. A few of our younger, more implusive, hotter tempered, and simpler minded members got into a pissing contest with NSO on the boards. NSO responded, and to be honest, we brought it on ourselves. Tetris has no such excuse and therefore they get no repreive.
[/quote]

Really, I wouldnt this to the VE-NpO war since that one involved proof of y'know, actual spying. (I.E. logs and names, including that of the spy). I dont even understand why in the world you would compare this to karma. You do realize that the karma side was the one that did the apparent spying in that war dont you? NPO got rolled after declaring war over it. This comparison really only weakens your point.

I also have a theory on why we got a pass. NSO spread the reports, the legion gov. analyzed stats and treaties and came to the conclusion that it a war they could not win. As a result they decided to back down.

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317761561' post='2816377']
But your info was already public on CNtel. Will you be seeking out all those who read it there, for accepting information? What about all the people who read the screenshots here? What about people who linked others to the thread? They spread it to a wider audience. Where do you draw the line? Calling accepting and disseminating information already in the public domain an act of war is a pretty big stretch.
[/quote]
If it was already public, why did Tetris feel the need to act like complete !@#$% and come out here with the info? Why did they try once again to insult Legion on the world stage? There was no need for it. If they wanted to spread the links, we have IRC and PMs for that. Instead, they decided to throw themselves on their own swords.

[heggo]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1317760720' post='2816366']
Tch, to think I actually had some respect for you guys at one point.


Ahh well, no use talking to a brick wall with no logical mind.
[/quote]
What's not logical about holding one standard for Legion and one for other alliances? Legion is different from other alliances so they should have different standards. Why, Legion even said themselves that they're different from other alliances. Something about not liking it when viceroys from other places were put in charge of them.

Okay, but let's actually be serious for a minute.

Did Tetris do something sketchy? Yes. If you use a "if screenshots, then spying" metric, it's hard to say otherwise.

But did Tetris infiltrate Legion or their upper gov with a spy ring or do anything like that? Obviously not. Those sorts of mostly irrelevant posts come from disgruntled members or attention seeking folks who take them in the generic all members forum and send them out to CNtel and every other place they can.

Spying got its place in the pantheon of CBs because real spying involves getting valuable intelligence from sensitive gov forums and the spies in question manipulating other alliance members to make FA and other moves for the benefit of other alliances. It further breaks trust within the alliance, since the leadership no longer knows what parts of itself can and can't be trusted. Real, legit spying is certainly a cause for war, but this isn't that. It's basically a Legion internal issue (undisciplined member sending out screenshots) that became an international one because Tetris posted them here.

Sketchy, and "spying" if you want to go with a really weak sense of the word, but certainly not like the real deal I described above. And certainly not something that couldn't have fallen into the realm of "worked out via negotiations if we tried".

All of which doesn't mean Legion was outside their rights to be upset or even start a war about it. Just that it's not a case of "Hurr hurr hurr, NSO defending vile spy ring sending corrupters, Tetris' sins are so great they deserve to be abandoned by their allies!" Legion has the right to war anyone for any reason. That's long been mine and the NSO's stance about all alliances. That was basically the whole point of the Moldavi Doctrine. All I'm saying is that it's silly to say Tetris has done something so ruddy awful that they ought to be lit afire and left to burn entirely and on their own. They clearly don't deserve that for doing something so awful as to -- gasp -- repost CNtel info onto this board. Of course, even if they did deserve that, we'd still back them up, but I feel like some measure of their honor ought to be defended against the extremity of claims made against them. Some folks were acting as if Tetris somehow managed to pose an existential threat of sorts to Legion, rather than just an (entertaining) nuisance.


PS -- I find it sad that the expectations on this board today are so low that someone could actually interpret me blatantly advocating a series of double standards as anything other than some mix of humor and satire. Though at least I think ChairmanHal got it.

Edited October 4, 2011 by heggo

[Banedon]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317761561' post='2816377']
But your info was already public on CNtel. Will you be seeking out all those who read it there, for accepting information? What about all the people who read the screenshots here? What about people who linked others to the thread? They spread it to a wider audience. Where do you draw the line? Calling accepting and disseminating information already in the public domain an act of war is a pretty big stretch.
[/quote]

Ideally, I'd like to find out the person/people/alliance that put our information out there in the first place and smash them. Tetris decided to post it here, and that was where we drew the line. If not having a clearly drawn line between what's allowed and what's not when dealing with spied information gives you problems, I'd suggest avoiding spied information entirely. We drew the line here, other alliances might draw it elsewhere.

[Partisan]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1317762248' post='2816385']
Ideally, I'd like to find out the person/people/alliance that put our information out there in the first place and smash them. Tetris decided to post it here, and that was where we drew the line. If not having a clearly drawn line between what's allowed and what's not when dealing with spied information gives you problems, I'd suggest avoiding spied information entirely. We drew the line here, other alliances might draw it elsewhere.
[/quote]

What took you so long? Were you looking for something to draw with? Normally, you'd expect an alliance to y'know, declare right after the incident and not weeks later.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317761931' post='2816383']
If it was already public, why did Tetris feel the need to act like complete !@#$% and come out here with the info? Why did they try once again to insult Legion on the world stage? There was no need for it. If they wanted to spread the links, we have IRC and PMs for that. Instead, they decided to throw themselves on their own swords.
[/quote]
[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1317762248' post='2816385']
Ideally, I'd like to find out the person/people/alliance that put our information out there in the first place and smash them. Tetris decided to post it here, and that was where we drew the line. If not having a clearly drawn line between what's allowed and what's not when dealing with spied information gives you problems, I'd suggest avoiding spied information entirely. We drew the line here, other alliances might draw it elsewhere.
[/quote]
So basically you declared on them because they hurt your feelings by drawing attention to your own failings. Thanks for being honest guys.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317761931' post='2816383']
If it was already public, why did Tetris feel the need to act like complete !@#$% and come out here with the info? Why did they try once again to insult Legion on the world stage? There was no need for it. If they wanted to spread the links, we have IRC and PMs for that. Instead, they decided to throw themselves on their own swords.
[/quote]

Why yes, that does seem to be the purpose of this war. Legion had their feelings hurt and decided to respond. Tetris was merely one step behind being a Julian Assange, releasing already-leaked information on a public forum. There is zero evidence that Tetris conducted espionage.

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317762492' post='2816389']
So basically you declared on them because they hurt your feelings by drawing attention to your own failings. Thanks for being honest guys.
[/quote]
If someone decided to come out and begin insulting NSO and posting information gathered from private NSO forums, your lot would be up in arms, don't try to deny it.


[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1317762516' post='2816390']
Why yes, that does seem to be the purpose of this war. Legion had their feelings hurt and decided to respond. Tetris was merely one step behind being a Julian Assange, releasing already-leaked information on a public forum. There is zero evidence that Tetris conducted espionage.
[/quote]
It's a matter of principle. Looks like Legion just about got fed up of folks constantly degrading them and decided to [i]do something about it[/i].

CNtel itself is a forum for spied information. Just because it's available for the public to see doesn't mean it should be formally announced out here.

[Banedon]

Tetris published spied information on the public boards, that is a fact. That has gotten alliances rolled in the past. We didn't approve, and we're doing something about it.

You're twisting yourself into a very strange pretzel trying to justify Tetris' actions.

I didn't think a human body could bend that way. At least not bend that way and live.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1317763087' post='2816398']
Tetris published spied information on the public boards, that is a fact. That has gotten alliances rolled in the past. We didn't approve, and we're doing something about it.

You're twisting yourself into a very strange pretzel trying to justify Tetris' actions.

I didn't think a human body could bend that way. At least not bend that way and live.
[/quote]

So then MK should have rolled MCXA when SCY made public a certain post from a private embassy? NSO's argument and justification has nothing to do with Tetris' actions and entirely to do with Legion's response.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317763087' post='2816397']
If someone decided to come out and begin insulting NSO and posting information gathered from private NSO forums, your lot would be up in arms, don't try to deny it.



It's a matter of principle. Looks like Legion just about got fed up of folks constantly degrading them and decided to [i]do something about it[/i].

CNtel itself is a forum for spied information. Just because it's available for the public to see doesn't mean it should be formally announced out here.
[/quote]
How you think conflating insulting and spying would work is beyond me. Having your alliance insulted is in no way a CB. Tetris posted already public information. That might be insulting, but it's not spying.

So you got fed up. Poor little Legion. You can be fed up all you want, but disseminating public info does not a CB make.

And what's the difference? It's really the same principle as when people find logs on !@#$%* and spread them around. You can be unhappy the info is out in public, you can't blame people for looking and spreading it round once it is public though.

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1317763087' post='2816398']
Tetris published spied information on the public boards, that is a fact. That has gotten alliances rolled in the past. We didn't approve, and we're doing something about it.

You're twisting yourself into a very strange pretzel trying to justify Tetris' actions.

I didn't think a human body could bend that way. At least not bend that way and live.
[/quote]
Transferring info from one public domain to another isn't a CB.

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317763735' post='2816405']
How you think conflating insulting and spying would work is beyond me. Having your alliance insulted is in no way a CB. Tetris posted already public information. That might be insulting, but it's not spying.

So you got fed up. Poor little Legion. You can be fed up all you want, but disseminating public info does not a CB make.

And what's the difference? It's really the same principle as when people find logs on !@#$%* and spread them around. You can be unhappy the info is out in public, you can't blame people for looking and spreading it round once it is public though.[/quote]
I'm not saying having your alliance insulted is a CB. It does however, make up a portion of the CB's justification, for reasons that are as obvious as the sky is blue.

Plastering private information all over the world scene however, is a CB. You guys can keep arguing that the information was already public, but the fact is, it wasn't, strictly speaking. The Legion didn't exactly authorise the putting up of that information, did they now?

It is [b]not[/b] okay to simply transfer information from a well-known spying hub to the international forum, public or otherwise. The information was spied- it remained private and not for public consumption.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317763087' post='2816397']
If someone decided to come out and begin insulting NSO and posting information gathered from private NSO forums, your lot would be up in arms, don't try to deny it.
[/quote]

Indeed, we were so up in arms about it, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=99288"]we'll never recover[/url]!

[quote]It's a matter of principle. Looks like Legion just about got fed up of folks constantly degrading them and decided to [i]do something about it[/i].

CNtel itself is a forum for spied information. Just because it's available for the public to see doesn't mean it should be formally announced out here.
[/quote]

Yes, Legion felt that it had taken enough !@#$, and instead of clean up their own house and root out their internal spies, they instead charged into their detractors. Yes, they finally grew a pair, but again, insulting does not equal espionage.

information is spilled into the public domain all the time. Legion just objected to one alliance (Tetris) doing it to you at the point when they felt you were picked on enough.

Edited October 4, 2011 by KainIIIC

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317764565' post='2816414']
I'm not saying having your alliance insulted is a CB. It does however, make up a portion of the CB's justification, for reasons that are as obvious as the sky is blue.

Plastering private information all over the world scene however, is a CB. You guys can keep arguing that the information was already public, but the fact is, it wasn't, strictly speaking. The Legion didn't exactly authorise the putting up of that information, did they now?

It is [b]not[/b] okay to simply transfer information from a well-known spying hub to the international forum, public or otherwise. The information was spied- it remained private and not for public consumption.
[/quote]
lol. I'm afraid that it was public. Just because it wasn't on these boards yet means nothing. Anyone here could go and view that information on CNtel any time they chose. You didn't authorize putting it up but once it's out there you're going to have a hard time convincing people that you have the right to attack them for looking at it and showing other people. I don't care if the information was spied originally or not. That has no bearing at all on what Tetris did. They brought the info to a wider audience, that's it. It may not have been intended for public consumption but that's where it ended up, and that's where it was when Tetris got to it, out in public. That you try and paint CNtel as an 'international spying hub' just shows how hard you're grasping here.

[Vulpes Inculta]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1317765073' post='2816420']
Indeed, we were so up in arms about it, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=99288"]we'll never recover[/url]![/quote]
That's a shoddy example, I know you absolutely cannot be serious with that.


[quote]Yes, Legion felt that it had taken enough !@#$, and instead of clean up their own house and root out their internal spies, they instead charged into their detractors. Yes, they finally grew a pair, but again, insulting does not equal espionage.

information is spilled into the public domain all the time. Legion just objected to one alliance (Tetris) doing it to you at the point when they felt you were picked on enough.[/quote]
This simply links me back to my "they threw themselves on their own swords" comment. If Tetris hadn't paraded that crap through here, there's a really, [i]really[/i] good chance that they wouldn't have been in the firing line. It's really just common sense. Unfortunately, it isn't so common. And yes, I know insulting does not equal espionage. Argued further on that point, I have not.


[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317766398' post='2816433']
lol. I'm afraid that it was public. Just because it wasn't on these boards yet means nothing. Anyone here could go and view that information on CNtel any time they chose. You didn't authorize putting it up but once it's out there you're going to have a hard time convincing people that you have the right to attack them for looking at it and showing other people. I don't care if the information was spied originally or not. That has no bearing at all on what Tetris did. They brought the info to a wider audience, that's it. It may not have been intended for public consumption but that's where it ended up, and that's where it was when Tetris got to it, out in public. That you try and paint CNtel as an 'international spying hub' just shows how hard you're grasping here.
[/quote]
No, it wasn't public. There's a difference that you don't seem to be picking up here. You see, spied information is spied information whether it's been placed in "public" places or not. To say that it becomes "unspied" information when it goes up in a public place, as you have implied so, is rather silly. And of course I didn't authorise it, I'm not Legion, derp.

Linking back once again, Legion didn't need to convince anyone that this attack is justified; Tetris brought this upon themselves, by parading the spied information here without good reason, most probably thinking they would get away with it.

Well what the hell would you call CNtel? The "Daily Coffee Morning Forum"? It's not me who's grasping here bud.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Vulpes Inculta

[Jaiar]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317766398' post='2816433']
lol. I'm afraid that it was public. Just because it wasn't on these boards yet means nothing. Anyone here could go and view that information on CNtel any time they chose. You didn't authorize putting it up but once it's out there you're going to have a hard time convincing people that you have the right to attack them for looking at it and showing other people. I don't care if the information was spied originally or not. That has no bearing at all on what Tetris did. They brought the info to a wider audience, that's it. It may not have been intended for public consumption but that's where it ended up, and that's where it was when Tetris got to it, out in public. That you try and paint CNtel as an 'international spying hub' just shows how hard you're grasping here.
[/quote]
WC, enjoy the war and stop the spin talk.

Alliances - especially their government members - should not be in the business of distributing information to a wider audience. Your spin talk is crazy talk. If any of your spin had any merit, the Viridian Entente would have declared war or would be very vocal about the situation. Instead, they are sitting back and taking full advantage of the fact that they quietly downgraded the treaty with Tetris to optional. Saddle up. It's Tetris/NSO v. Legion - have a good war.

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317767004' post='2816440']
No, it wasn't public. There's a difference that you don't seem to be picking up here. You see, spied information is spied information whether it's been placed in "public" places or not. To say that it becomes "unspied" information when it goes up in a public place, as you have implied so, is rather silly.
[/quote]
This man makes a good point.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Jaiar

[Varianz]

This war should really be known as the "jump the gun" war (look at the NSO war screens if you don't know what I'm talking about).

Also hi Mogar and Europa?

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Vulpes Inculta' timestamp='1317767004' post='2816440']
No, it wasn't public. There's a difference that you don't seem to be picking up here. You see, spied information is spied information whether it's been placed in "public" places or not. To say that it becomes "unspied" information when it goes up in a public place, as you have implied so, is rather silly. And of course I didn't authorise it, I'm not Legion, derp.

Linking back once again, Legion didn't need to convince anyone that this attack is justified; Tetris brought this upon themselves, by parading the spied information here without good reason, most probably thinking they would get away with it.

Well what the hell would you call CNtel? The "Daily Coffee Morning Forum"? It's not me who's grasping here bud.
[/quote]
So everyone that read TWiP was committing an act of war? Really? That was spied info released to the public. I didn't say it becomes 'unspied' (what a dumb term), I said that it's not spying to view it or pass it along once it's out in the public. Or should Legion plan to attack everyone who read any thread containing a spy report or screenshot from Legion? They're going to be pretty busy, because everyone of them who read those threads is guilty of accepting spied information under your definition. And everyone who linked it to someone is guilty of disseminating it. And I didn't mean you specifically, I meant you as in Legion, which I assumed you were in since you're arguing so hard. Having fun defending Legion's actions when even they have given up?

And no, Legion doesn't [i]need[/i] to convince anyone that it's justified, they are a sovereign alliance. But going to war on such a ridiculous premise is probably not how I'd be wanting to make my break from the past. Tetris did nothing except hurt your feelings with public info, don't act like that's some kind of grievous offense that must be punished with war.

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1317767205' post='2816444']
WC, enjoy the war and stop the spin talk.

Alliances - especially their government members - should not be in the business of distributing information to a wider audience. Your spin talk is crazy talk. If any of your spin had any merit, the Viridian Entente would have declared war or would be very vocal about the situation. Instead, they are sitting back and taking full advantage of the fact that they quietly downgraded the treaty with Tetris to optional. Saddle up. It's Tetris/NSO v. Legion - have a good war.
[/quote]
How does what VE does have any effect on the validity of my argument. VE might have a completely different take on things, I don't know and don't care. You should also probably word your posts better, if I was feeling facetious I'd ask if alliances, especially government members, should be posting announcements then, since they shouldn't be distributing information. And why can't I enjoy the war [i]and[/i] attacking Legion's shoddy premise for war?

[Mogar]

Dear legion
[quote]You have just conducted a spy operation against the nation of Elam Empire. In the attack your spy efforts were successful as your spies were able to gather the following information about the nation:

Desired Religion: None
Desired Government: Communist
Threat Level: High
Tax Rate: 28%
Number of Spies: 6
Last Nuke Purchase: None
Last Wonder Purchase: 5/6/2011
Total Money: $84,812,568
Technology: 530.52 Levels
Last Bill Payment: 10/4/2011 5:34:05 PM
Trade Partners: Pimpsrus, Midtopia, Silberwlfean, Brolantis, The Florida Keys
Secret Aid Sent To: None
Total Aircraft: 7
Aircraft Fighter Strength: 45
Aircraft Bomber Strength: 18
Navy Purchases Today: 0
Navy Vessels:
Corvettes: 0
Landing Ships: 0
Battleships: 0
Cruisers: 0
Frigates: 0
Destroyers: 0
Submarines: 0
Aircraft Carriers: 0

Your spies returned home unharmed and unidentified. [/quote]
your friends seem to be as well prepared as you were in Great War 2.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Turin' timestamp='1317762391' post='2816388']
What took you so long? Were you looking for something to draw with? Normally, you'd expect an alliance to y'know, declare right after the incident and not weeks later.
[/quote]

Are you new here? A week or two is a speedy turn-around for a CB these days.

[Jaiar]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1317768443' post='2816451']
How does what VE does have any effect on the validity of my argument. VE might have a completely different take on things, I don't know and don't care. You should also probably word your posts better, [b]if I was feeling facetious I'd ask if alliances, especially government members, should be posting announcements then, since they shouldn't be distributing information.[/b] And why can't I enjoy the war [i]and[/i] attacking Legion's shoddy premise for war?
[/quote]
Smart Alec Announcing a new treaty or a milestone is different than posting information from private forums.

VE affects the validity because they could very easily roll in and defend Tetris. The fact that they will stay out speaks volumes.

VE apparently sees things as they are: Tetris is guilty and deserves to be hit by Legion.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Jaiar

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1317769127' post='2816464']
Smart Alec Announcing a new treaty or a milestone is different than posting information from private forums.

VE affects the validity because they could very easily roll in and defend Tetris. The fact that they will stay out speaks volumes.

VE apparently sees things as they are: Tetris is guilty and deserves to be hit by Legion.
[/quote]
I know, but information is a pretty vague term.

As for VE, from what I hear their concern is not the validity of the CB at all, but rather the wishes of an uninvolved party. I'm not VE so I can't tell you what their verdict on the war is, but what they do or do not do has no bearing on my opinion. If it worked that way, everyone would think Tetris is innocent since we're defending them.

[Mogar]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1317768277' post='2816450']
This war should really be known as the "jump the gun" war (look at the NSO war screens if you don't know what I'm talking about).

Also hi Mogar and Europa?
[/quote]
sup, Mercenary for hire, at your service. my bill will be 1 million per nuke I launch.

[Cager]

Awaiting Legion surrender...........