R&R-UINE Announcement

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307570550' post='2727306']
Can we please put to rest the arguments that UINE didn't put up resistance in negotiations and that they wanted these changes? In regards to the former, UINE is incompetent. That's why this whole situation occurred, and the fact that they don't know how to negotiate just shows that R&R needlessly took advantage of that. As far as the latter is concerned, it doesn't matter that UINE wanted them. If they wanted them, they would put the changes in place. R&R has no right to run UINE, even if they're running it how the membership would like.
[/quote]

Mandatory Tech deals is a way of [i]running[/i] a foreign alliance's resources. Mandatory exit of peace mode is a way of [i]running[/i] a foreign alliance's nations.

The argument on sovereignty concession is nothing short of absurd - that is per se the definition of a treaty and more so of surrender terms -, the question is where you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable demands on someone's sovereignty. Punishment should fit the crime and not follow a blind declaration of [i]rules that should be respected[/i]™.

Saying that an alliance has no business running another alliance has never been true in Planet Bob since the first war GATO fought.

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1307504482' post='2726592']
Perhaps Xiphosis fell asleep before he could finish writing out the rest of the terms?
[/quote]

If Xiphosis had written the terms UINE would probably have been disbanded actually.


...Incidentally you should totally have Xiphosis write the terms next time around




Also, these are absurd terms and R&R is the devil and etc.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1307578450' post='2727401']
People go through an awful lot of effort to tell me that I'm irrelevant and nobody cares.

Just saying.
[/quote]
I often kick pebbles as I walk along the side of the road. It's not that I hate the pebbles, or even particularly pay them much mind. They just happen to be there, and I have a tendency to fidget.

[Trout]

congrats on your victory uine!

[Hereno]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1307577728' post='2727389']
We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. If it helps out the alliance, which everyone seems to agree it does, I see no problems with it.
[/quote]

Call me crazy, but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that replacing a government which can't move (what was it, 60m?) of reps in 6 months with one who happily allows an outside alliance to change their charter and out their leader is an upgrade. Really, it's a side-grade, at best.

Edited because I'm way too picky about wording sometimes.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Hereno

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1307584358' post='2727479']
Call me crazy, but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that replacing a government which can't move (what was it, 60m?) of reps in 6 months with one who happily allows an outside alliance to change their charter and out their leader is an upgrade. Really, it's a side-grade.
[/quote]
$36m. And hey, the former was clearly incompetent, while the latter was helped with change. We'll see whether that change is good or not in the coming weeks/months.

[Stealthkill]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307578804' post='2727406']
Basically what I got from this post is that you are basically worthless as a debater and incapable of forming any sort of logical argument thus [b]you must commit ad hominem arguments[/b] to make up for your lack of anything resembling logical thought. Thank you for allowing me to finally conclude that your posts need to be ignored since you won't actually attempt to refute anything but will instead act like a complete idiot.
[/quote]
It's ironic because this post is filled with 'em. Now honestly, you're the guy who went and took a post that was obviously a joke and tried to make a serious response to it. Essentially, I found no reason to create a full serious response to you because A, not worth it, and B, most of what I'd say anyways has already been said, yet you insist on reiterating your point so I honestly doubt one more person trying to beat the other side into your head will make you see the light. 'tis the way of the OWF, we're all led by our biases and might as well agree to disagree. Therefore, I joke and have fun when I'm bored and my attempts at arguments are oft halfhearted because it simply is not worth it. Remember that time when those two guys argued on the OWF and something came out of it? Neither did I.

Essentially, here's the deal. I understand that people have these moral gut reactions to this sorta thing. I disagree completely, but I understand it. Where I draw the line is where you try to insinuate that somehow,[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102471&view=findpost&p=2727193] R&R was intending to throw out Keve the entire time and we only went to war because we wanted to[/url]. Apparently, it took us nearly 6 months to go to war when we wanted to. Odd, right? If you left it at "UINE should have been the one to do it, R&R shouldn't have interfered" then that's just your opinion, I disagree, but oh well. It's a matter of opinion, no amount of debate will change that. But when you branch it out to R&R apparently having its own agenda regarding UINE or something absurdly counter-intuitive like that, I draw the line because you're simply just wrong. That's not a matter of opinion, it's just some guy who's trying to yell about the loudest, craziest idea he can think of but still pretend to be reasonable. You're simply wrong there, but due to your overwhelming bias and the fact that you're not relevant enough to deal with, I don't bother actually trying to debate you because it is simply pointless because I find you unable to be reasoned with. Perhaps this is why you are frustrated when people don't give you the long post attention of rebuttal you want, you're not worth it. Sorry, but that's just it. I hope you'll accept this though, it's likely as good as you're gonna get. I'll call it my nice pity action of the day. I anticipate your ad hominem filled rebuttal, or possibly even a post that implies that you didn't even get the point

[Wabooz]

R&R, the new threat to CN's security. Get 'em MK
And I think it was 18M gibs, as half was already paid off.

[Banksy]

God, imagine if we gave these terms.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1307588958' post='2727556']
God, imagine if we gave these terms.
[/quote]
The thing is, you wouldn't.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Stealthkill' timestamp='1307587314' post='2727534']
It's ironic because this post is filled with 'em. Now honestly, you're the guy who went and took a post that was obviously a joke and tried to make a serious response to it. Essentially, I found no reason to create a full serious response to you because A, not worth it, and B, most of what I'd say anyways has already been said, yet you insist on reiterating your point so I honestly doubt one more person trying to beat the other side into your head will make you see the light. 'tis the way of the OWF, we're all led by our biases and might as well agree to disagree. Therefore, I joke and have fun when I'm bored and my attempts at arguments are oft halfhearted because it simply is not worth it. Remember that time when those two guys argued on the OWF and something came out of it? Neither did I.

Essentially, here's the deal. I understand that people have these moral gut reactions to this sorta thing. I disagree completely, but I understand it. Where I draw the line is where you try to insinuate that somehow,[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102471&view=findpost&p=2727193] R&R was intending to throw out Keve the entire time and we only went to war because we wanted to[/url]. Apparently, it took us nearly 6 months to go to war when we wanted to. Odd, right? If you left it at "UINE should have been the one to do it, R&R shouldn't have interfered" then that's just your opinion, I disagree, but oh well. It's a matter of opinion, no amount of debate will change that. But when you branch it out to R&R apparently having its own agenda regarding UINE or something absurdly counter-intuitive like that, I draw the line because you're simply just wrong. That's not a matter of opinion, it's just some guy who's trying to yell about the loudest, craziest idea he can think of but still pretend to be reasonable. You're simply wrong there, but due to your overwhelming bias and the fact that you're not relevant enough to deal with, I don't bother actually trying to debate you because it is simply pointless because I find you unable to be reasoned with. Perhaps this is why you are frustrated when people don't give you the long post attention of rebuttal you want, you're not worth it. Sorry, but that's just it. I hope you'll accept this though, it's likely as good as you're gonna get. I'll call it my nice pity action of the day. I anticipate your ad hominem filled rebuttal, or possibly even a post that implies that you didn't even get the point
[/quote]

For one, I don't know you. So no, it was not some joke. I took it as you making a serious reply and considering the amount of people who post in a similar fashion to what you did that are serious, I took it as serious.

Second, as for my post being an ad hominem, yup pretty much was. Why? I took what you said to me and basically reversed it. If you were joking the first time around, you could easily have said so. Instead, you did what you did. Thus, I took your post as serious.

Third- My overwhelming bias? What exactly am I biased against? I had no issues at all with R&R prior to this in the least. In fact, I have stated that Keve needed to be removed from leadership and agreed that some changes needed to be made in UINE. My issues are simply that R&R forced UINE to do this. How is that exactly biased? This is quite amusing really.

Fourth- I never stated that R&R intended to throw Keve out the entire time. I simply stated that R&R disliked Keve and that dislike helped persuade R&R to force the expulsion of Keve from office. As for the war- the 6 month period is pretty much nulled. UINE entered the NpO-PB war on Jan. 19 (11 days after the Commonsense agreement was made) and left on March 11th. After that it was rebuilding for UINE. No clue why R&R or AID waited to be honest. I don't care either.

Fifth- Given the wording of the DoW as well as the terms given and the terms initially demanded, it makes it appear that R&R had some other motive. Why else demand the cancellation on Polaris in the first place? Why else demand Keve be expelled from the alliance? Why even consider a viceroy? Why demand anything from UINE besides Term #2 if R&R had no ulterior motive to this war? If all R&R cared about was getting the reps owed to AID, then term #2 accomplishes that. Terms #1, 3, 4, and even 5 have nothing remotely to do with AID or getting AID their reps. The closest they come is Keve's actions and techraiding. But those are only the causes for why the reps were owed in the first place and why they were not paid. Term #2 again accomplishes the goal of getting AID paid. So, by your measure R&R acted counter-intuitive to what you are stating.

Sixth- To my knowledge, your little "joke" post was the first time you ever attempted to "debate" with me. So, yeah....

[Banksy]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1307589089' post='2727557']
The thing is, you wouldn't.
[/quote]
Challenge accepted etc.

[Alex987]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1307567520' post='2727263']
UINE's history is UINE's history. It is not R&R's history. It is not my history. Thus, it is up to neither of us to decide what is best for UINE. Trying to pass this travesty off as something good is just !@#$%^&*. R&R is just riding the high life while they can and have begun abusing other alliances along the way. This most certainly has colored many alliances' perception of R&R and not for the better.
[/quote]

Lol, are you serious? UINE history is UINE history and not R&R history? I'm sorry, but when you go to war because your allies haven't received small amounts of reps that should take 1 month in 6 months' time, YOUR history is MY history. Because now I need to go and get those reps. And you say to wait 4 more days? Are you serious? How many times has R&R gov contacted keve trying to get the aid? OF COURSE when war already started he's going to claim innocence! Do you really think after 6 months those 4 days were really that significant? Somehow when they've been lying for the past 6 months they're going to tell the truth for the last 4 days? No, that is wrong.

Riding the high life and begun abusing other alliances? Where do we profit in that treaty? Tell me in 1 area where R&R directly profits from that deal, I'm waiting. You know where we profit, from ending the stupid wars that cause so much more headache than they're worth. This war was more headache than it should be worth, because we are fought every step along the way over something so petty as paying $36 million in reps for raiding AiD!

[Banksy]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307589869' post='2727572']
Lol, are you serious? UINE history is UINE history and not R&R history? I'm sorry, but when you go to war because your allies haven't received small amounts of reps that should take 1 month in 6 months' time, YOUR history is MY history. Because now I need to go and get those reps. And you say to wait 4 more days? Are you serious? How many times has R&R gov contacted keve trying to get the aid? OF COURSE when war already started he's going to claim innocence! Do you really think after 6 months those 4 days were really that significant? Somehow when they've been lying for the past 6 months they're going to tell the truth for the last 4 days? No, that is wrong.

Riding the high life and begun abusing other alliances? Where do we profit in that treaty? Tell me in 1 area where R&R directly profits from that deal, I'm waiting. You know where we profit, from ending the stupid wars that cause so much more headache than they're worth. This war was more headache than it should be worth, because we are fought every step along the way over something so petty as paying $36 million in reps for raiding AiD!
[/quote]
I see you're new and you've fallen into the trap of reading Dochartaigh posts. I suggest clicking on "My Settings," "Profile," "Manage Ignored Users" and add him.

[Alex987]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1307590033' post='2727576']
I see you're new and you've fallen into the trap of reading Dochartaigh posts. I suggest clicking on "My Settings," "Profile," "Manage Ignored Users" and add him.
[/quote]

Lol, yes. I know I am not convincing him as has probably been said by many people before. The only people I care to convince are the ones not posting outrageous comments and just silently observing.

[D34th]

This thread is a guide to how win a easy and justified war, and how lose tons of PR doing this.

Edited June 9, 2011 by D34th

[Mathias]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307590189' post='2727581']
Lol, yes. I know I am not convincing him as has probably been said by many people before. The only people I care to convince are the ones not posting outrageous comments and just silently observing.
[/quote]

Outrageous comments? You're wrong, just so you know. Doch's posts are indeed outrageous but you're still wrong.

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307575637' post='2727365']
Wow, so UINE was able to stop a forced expulsion. Clearly they're masters of diplomacy.
[/quote]

Back in my day, forced expulsions were pretty much standard operating procedure. I've survived demands for expulsion from Norden Verein, VE, and even the freakin' GPA.

Um, I think I had a point... Let this be a lesson, boys and girl (I'm sure there's one out there, somewhere) -- don't ever get old.

Oh yeah, my point... I don't think losing a war and suffering the associated penalties is the end of the world. It builds character.

Get off my lawn.

-Craig

[Mathias]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1307590973' post='2727599']
Back in my day, forced expulsions were pretty much standard operating procedure. I've survived demands for expulsion from Norden Verein, VE, and even the freakin' GPA.

Um, I think I had a point... Let this be a lesson, boys and girl (I'm sure there's one out there, somewhere) -- don't ever get old.

Oh yeah, my point... I don't think losing a war and suffering the associated penalties is the end of the world. It builds character.

Get off my lawn.

-Craig
[/quote]

I remember those practices too, and have been in alliances that's happened to (and worse).

There's a reason !@#$ like this isn't supposed to happen anymore.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1307590189' post='2727581']
Lol, yes. I know I am not convincing him as has probably been said by many people before. The only people I care to convince are the ones not posting outrageous comments and just silently observing.
[/quote]
As Mathias said, you're wrong fyi. Regardless of which side Doch takes, you should ignore everything he says.

[Alex987]

I'd like to just finish off with one last point since I've said everything I really need to say here...

[quote name='REGHAR73' timestamp='1307567619' post='2727267']
[quote]The government was already going to remove keve[/quote]
I think you'll find this was only done after the DOW and there had been no intention to do so before that point. It was a necessary evil due to position that the UINE was put in, by themselves and RnR.

Just so everyone is clear.
[/quote]

So UINE admits that keve ruled as a dictator that ran the alliance into the ground with problems, but they are only removing him once they are forced? THIS is EXACTLY why it needs to be spelled out in treaties. Otherwise it's all smiles and handshakes at the conference table, and then once you leave the room you go back on ANOTHER promise. What reghar is saying is that he is fine with keve dragging $36 mil in reps out across 6 months, but during the war he was going on saying how it was wrong and he will pay them personally. How do those two fit together? They don't. Reghar had a problem with keve dragging out payments during the war, but now it benefits him with some PR to seem like he was abused into these terms that they allowed. And now because we are allowing them the terms they wanted changed (but apparently they didn't change enough) we're still the bad guys? Ok, anybody who thinks otherwise is falling into the PR trap that UINE is setting. They promised to kick out keve, and now they are claiming they wouldn't have done so unless they were forced by circumstances? Well, I'm glad we safeguarded ourselves by forcing the circumstances.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1307590973' post='2727599']
Back in my day, forced expulsions were pretty much standard operating procedure. I've survived demands for expulsion from Norden Verein, VE, and even the freakin' GPA.

Um, I think I had a point... Let this be a lesson, boys and girl (I'm sure there's one out there, somewhere) -- don't ever get old.

Oh yeah, my point... I don't think losing a war and suffering the associated penalties is the end of the world. It builds character.

Get off my lawn.

-Craig
[/quote]
It's not only the forced expulsions, it's the alteration of charters and internal procedures over a minor incident that's the issue. People aren't complaining because it's the end of the world, just because we've spent the last two years operating under the assumption that these sorts of terms were contrary to our new norms.

[Minilla Island]

It is what it is. We have survived worse. We'll get through this. As much as I am not crazy about the terms, there is not much one can do when you are facing annihilation. That said, this is just another pothole in the long and winding road that we travel on. We will rebuild. We shall remain focused.

And, in the end, the Union will prevail.

Peace,
HRH King Raymond II
Imperial Advisor

[pezstar]

[quote name='Minilla Island' timestamp='1307591522' post='2727611']
It is what it is. We have survived worse. We'll get through this. As much as I am not crazy about the terms, there is not much one can do when you are facing annihilation. That said, this is just another pothole in the long and winding road that we travel on. We will rebuild. We shall remain focused.

And, in the end, the Union will prevail.

Peace,
HRH King Raymond II
Imperial Advisor
[/quote]

That's not quite true. You negotiated for what... 2 days? That's a drop in the bucket. My advice to anyone when negotiating terms for their alliance is simple:

-If you can't stomach the terms, decline them. The worst that can happen is more war. I promise, losing your dignity and self-respect is far, far worse than fighting a little longer.
-If you can live with it, take it and screw everyone else. It's your alliance and if you are ok with it, good for you. Just make sure you're ACTUALLY ok with it, because once you accept it, you have to live with it, and if it was too harsh, you're going to hold a grudge for a long time.

There are two things I think STA really regrets. One of them was accepting way, way too harsh terms a few years ago.

If you guys are comfortable with the agreement you made with R&R, don't worry about the peanut gallery. You don't answer to them. You answer to yourselves.

[Comrade Craig]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1307591426' post='2727608']
It's not only the forced expulsions, it's the alteration of charters and internal procedures over a minor incident that's the issue. People aren't complaining because it's the end of the world, just because we've spent the last two years operating under the assumption that these sorts of terms were contrary to our new norms.
[/quote]

I guess I'm not clear about exactly what our "new norms" are. Perhaps DH should publish them so we're all clear

-Craig