Reason and Purpose

[Wu Tang Clan]

Meh... here goes.

As, I think all of Athens gov knows, Panfilo applied for membership in Exodus about a month ago (or so). In his application he did indeed (as ace mentioned) seem to want to rebuild his reputation, and he knew why he was kicked from TOP, and basically that he messed up. In my brief conversations with him, he seemed sincere and apologetic.

That being said, I also found several lies in his application (such as the fact that he avoided not one, but two wars with TOP, and that he bailed on Athens during war). So, I take that appearance with a grain of salt. As has been mentioned already, words are easy to type.

I say that to get to this. I firmly believe Athens has/had every right to seek vengeance on the traitorous acts of a former government member. I believe that ZI, in this case, was a warranted course of action. And, I would never tell an alliance how to run their business, especially a fine establishment such as Athens. That being said, I wish there was some sort of alternative solution, because I do think Panfilo could become a respectable member given the right conditions (admittedly, Exodus did not provide those conditions at the time, or now). And, if this does lead to the departure of another experienced member from our humble planet, I disagree with the previous posters, as I believe something of value will be lost. In a state of dwindling numbers, one lost is too many lost, if we have the chance to change it.

So, on one hand, I respect Athens' position, and I support their decision. I just find it unfortunate that it will (most likely) force another nation off the face of Bob. But, I guess that's ultimately Panfilo's decision...

In conclusion, I would like to say congratulations to Athens for fulfilling your grudge. And I hope Panfilo does decide to stay around Bob in one context or another.

[USMC123]

Oh Panfilo. You silly, silly lad.

[kamichi]

this is pretty great.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1301375090' post='2679700']
I can confirm that Panfilo was the first member of TOP ever to be expelled for cowardice, and only the seventh member in TOP's history to be expelled in general.
[/quote]

Is there a complete list of those expelled from TOP anywhere?

[Systemfailure]

Never Forgive, Never Forget

have fun panfilo

[Fyfe XIV]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1301376151' post='2679714']
I say that to get to this. I firmly believe Athens has/had every right to seek vengeance on the traitorous acts of a former government member. I believe that ZI, in this case, was a warranted course of action. And, I would never tell an alliance how to run their business, especially a fine establishment such as Athens. That being said, I wish there was some sort of alternative solution, because I do think Panfilo could become a respectable member given the right conditions (admittedly, Exodus did not provide those conditions at the time, or now). And, if this does lead to the departure of another experienced member from our humble planet, I disagree with the previous posters, as I believe something of value will be lost. In a state of dwindling numbers, one lost is too many lost, if we have the chance to change it.
[/quote]

We merely wanted Panfilo to pay his debt to Athens and he has. A single ZI sentence is by no means driving him from the game and I don't see an alternative solution being necessary. If his response to facing the loss of his 10k precious infra is to sell said infra, delete his wonders and insult us in his native language in his bio then I question whether he can actually change. His response has been downright childish and I believe that people like him contribute nothing to this game other than as a statistic. I do respect you and your opinion and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

He wasn't even good at war when he tried to fight


[quote name='Systemfailure' timestamp='1301379139' post='2679745']
have fun panfilo
[/quote]

It seems like he not agree with fun either

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=123271

Edited March 29, 2011 by Fyfe XIV

[Duncan King]

I love how you're trying to coat excrement in chocolate. It doesn't matter how you coat it, it's still crap. You would have had a valid reason to go after him two years ago but now you're just being ridiculous.

[Heft]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1301360408' post='2679519']
Too much has been let go in the history of CN.
[/quote]
This game is drowning in years-old grudges and petty !@#$%^&* and you actually say that with a straight face?

I don't really care about Panfilo, but if you feel like there is some great OOC reason to attack someone who didn't fight in some wars then, well, I really just can't comprehend that.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Goodbye Panfilo. Hope to talk to you again someday. Regardless of the grudges that came back to haunt you and your actions in times gone by, you were a good guy to talk to and my interactions with you were always positive. So in that sense, yes you did add to the experience for me. Accordingly, i shall miss you.

Cheers.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Alfred von Tirpitz

[potato]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1301387908' post='2679794']
This game is drowning in years-old grudges and petty !@#$%^&* and you actually say that with a straight face?

I don't really care about Panfilo, but if you feel like there is some great OOC reason to attack someone who didn't fight in some wars then, well, I really just can't comprehend that.
[/quote]

Where did Rush (or anyone in Athens) say it was OOC?

[Heft]

This is an OOC thread.

[potato]

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume this wasn't really an official Athens announcement (notice the lack of banner and sigs?) but a mere statement of... -gasp- ...reason and purpose, explaining the ZI of Panfilo.

Or are you saying you're this thick OOC too?

[Stefano Palmieri]

Traitors should burn. o/ Athens

Edited March 29, 2011 by Stefano Palmieri

[Heft]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1301392484' post='2679817']
I'm going to take a wild guess and assume this wasn't really an official Athens announcement (notice the lack of banner and sigs?) but a mere statement of... -gasp- ...reason and purpose, explaining the ZI of Panfilo.

Or are you saying you're this thick OOC too?
[/quote]
Oh I had no idea thank you for that illuminating clarification.

The reason seems to be that they think it is their duty to carry a grudge against some guy who walked out on them in a war two years ago, and they seem awfully upset about this in an OOC post lauding their own actions. Not really sure what that has to do with sigs or banners.

Basically, they shouldn't still care this much. They can feel free to go after the guy, but they shouldn't come here and tell us they're doing a good thing or whatever.

[Dibbun]

As I was reading this and saw that the incident was a couple years old I wasn't going to say anything (Athens is an ally) but then I saw that not only was he high gov but also took people from the alliance with him. That's not just cowardice. That's not just desertion. That's straight up [i]treason[/i] and worthy of a death sentence, no matter how long ago it was.

PZI ftw. It looks like he deleted or I would have offered some support

[Alterego]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1301362300' post='2679554']
[color=red][size="6"]I NOT AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT[/size][/color]


Panfilo betrayed Athens to save his infra. No, we never forgave him for that. No one who was there at the time did. And I'm fine with that. But we're good now, and [b]I regret that he felt the need to delete all of his wonders and improvements. What Panfilo does now is fully up to him, and our score has been settled.[/b]
[/quote]
Only deletion was enough to satisfy your alliance, you should regret that. Yes another player driven from the game/driven to feel he needed to delete or at least deletion being required to get a clean slate.

[potato]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1301396850' post='2679845']
Oh I had no idea thank you for that illuminating clarification.

The reason seems to be that they think it is their duty to carry a grudge against some guy who walked out on them in a war two years ago, and they seem awfully upset about this in an OOC post lauding their own actions. Not really sure what that has to do with sigs or banners.

Basically, they shouldn't still care this much. They can feel free to go after the guy, but they shouldn't come here and tell us they're doing a good thing or whatever.
[/quote]

Glad I could be of help: you did seem a bit confused. But, if you actually had read the OP, maybe you'd have noticed that quite a few people have asked about panfilo. So, instead of repeating the same line ad nauseam, Rush explained everything in a single post. And, basically, it amounts to "No, you can't have him. No, we don't want anything else. Once he's ZI'd, he can do whatever he wants and you can do whatever you want."

Edited March 29, 2011 by potato

[Charles Stuart]

I thought membership within an alliance was a [i]choice[/i]? If you don't like the alliance then you leave. Pretty simple stuff.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1301360408' post='2679519']
Some of you, may hold the argument, that since it all happened over 2 years ago, it is a silly grudge, and should have just been let go. Just, no.
Too much has been let go in the history of CN. We made a decision long ago, to not let it go, and we stood firmly by that decision. [b]In the time, since this incident happened, Panfilo spent 19 months in TOP.[/b][/quote]

Why was he not chased down then? Why did you wait two years?

[the rebel]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1301386906' post='2679790']
I love how you're trying to coat excrement in chocolate. It doesn't matter how you coat it, it's still crap. [b]You would have had a valid reason to go after him two years ago but now you're just being ridiculous.[/b]
[/quote]

Well the thing is during the time that happened Athens wasnt one of the biggest names around and had few friends/allies, war happend and Panfilo ran away with members to i think RoK to which he stayed there awhile (not sure wasnt paying too much attention at him). We all know if a alliance with little friends and influence came to most well connected alliances about a problem, they would be ignored.

Even today if he could of kept Athens at bay, he just choose an alliance with little influence. That was the time for revenge.

[MutedFaith]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1301398648' post='2679860']
I thought membership within an alliance was a [i]choice[/i]? If you don't like the alliance then you leave. Pretty simple stuff.
[/quote]

Once you're in gov it's no longer about your right to be in an alliance of your choice, but about your duties towards the general membership of the alliance you're (co-)leading.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1301399485' post='2679864']
Well the thing is during the time that happened Athens wasnt one of the biggest names around and had few friends/allies, war happend and Panfilo ran away with members to i think RoK to which he stayed there awhile (not sure wasnt paying too much attention at him). We all know if a alliance with little friends and influence came to most well connected alliances about a problem, they would be ignored.

Even today if he could of kept Athens at bay, he just choose an alliance with little influence. That was the time for revenge.
[/quote]

Sounds to me like Athens are as cowardly as Panfilo himself if they've got to wait two years before even approaching an alliance about this ZI sentence they've held over someone's head. Even then they had to wait for him to join an alliance who weren't in the most politically strong position and had just come out of a war.

Should've told them to $%&@ off AB, they had their chance two years ago. It wouldn't have been too difficult for them to contact whatever alliance he applied to, explain that he's a former government member of the alliance and is being sentenced for desertion.

[ace072199]

[quote name='itseZe' timestamp='1301370995' post='2679655']
Well if he really is leaving then there is no harm done, right? Athens gets what they wanted, and Panfilo gets what he wanted.
Best solution for everyone.
[/quote]

he is leaving the game because of this 2 year grudge, so a better way to state it would be, the damage is already done, so no point in arguing it.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1301400349' post='2679870']
Sounds to me like Athens are as cowardly as Panfilo himself if they've got to wait two years before even approaching an alliance about this ZI sentence they've held over someone's head. Even then they had to wait for him to join an alliance who weren't in the most politically strong position and had just come out of a war.

Should've told them to $%&@ off AB, they had their chance two years ago. It wouldn't have been too difficult for them to contact whatever alliance he applied to, explain that he's a former government member of the alliance and is being sentenced for desertion.
[/quote]

Just my reasoning on why Panfilo survived soo long, through being in well connected and strong alliances, if they did go TOP and got denied (if they didnt go to TOP about it then that would confuse me) then it was the waiting game. Although i dont really have any love for Panfilo given the situation he put me in and Athens at the time 24-48hrs prior to the involvement in noCB. But thats just me. The grudge was strong to which i can understand.

Edited March 29, 2011 by the rebel

[ace072199]

[quote name='MutedFaith' timestamp='1301399698' post='2679866']
Once you're in gov it's no longer about your right to be in an alliance of your choice, but about your duties towards the general membership of the alliance you're (co-)leading.
[/quote]

Sorry to double post, but I saw this after.

So, are you saying it would have made it better if he stepped down as gov, then left the alliance?

[Hereno]

Anyone who would delete a 2+ year old nation because they're getting a single ZI sentence has no sympathy from me. Especially when it's coming after 3 war desertions.