Reason and Purpose

[ace072199]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1301401334' post='2679887']
Anyone who would delete a 2+ year old nation because they're getting a single ZI sentence has no sympathy from me. Especially when it's coming after 3 war desertions.
[/quote]


He probably didn't think it would stop there, can't say for sure though.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1301376151' post='2679714']
Meh... here goes.
[b] That being said, I wish there was some sort of alternative solution, because I do think Panfilo could become a respectable member given the right conditions [/b]
[/quote]
I had to stop right here. I truthfully couldn't care less about some coward whos afraid of war but nobody is PZI'ing the dude. it was a simple take your licks and move on. Losing some infra, unless your THAT tragic of an infra hugger, doesnt mean jack.

if he wants to ragequit over this, then well have fun with that

[ace072199]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1301403944' post='2679905']
I had to stop right here. I truthfully couldn't care less about some coward whos afraid of war but nobody is PZI'ing the dude. it was a simple take your licks and move on. Losing some infra, unless your THAT tragic of an infra hugger, doesnt mean jack.

if he wants to ragequit over this, then well have fun with that
[/quote]

The reason nobody is PZI the dude is probably because athens (If I am not mistaken) is a signatory of the ZI PEACE PACT. Well that and PZI is just wrong.

[Fyfe XIV]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1301400349' post='2679870']
Sounds to me like Athens are as cowardly as Panfilo himself if they've got to wait two years before even approaching an alliance about this ZI sentence they've held over someone's head. Even then they had to wait for him to join an alliance who weren't in the most politically strong position and had just come out of a war.

Should've told them to $%&@ off AB, they had their chance two years ago. It wouldn't have been too difficult for them to contact whatever alliance he applied to, explain that he's a former government member of the alliance and is being sentenced for desertion.
[/quote]

Hey look! You don't know what happened even though it's been explained numerous times

Also, its a good thing AB did what they did because we would have pursued him anyways. You could say it was [i]non-negotiable[/i].

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1301398648' post='2679860']
I thought membership within an alliance was a [i]choice[/i]? If you don't like the alliance then you leave. Pretty simple stuff.
[/quote]

So if what you're saying is correct, Pacifica is alright with its members leaving during wartime? Something tells me that isn't true.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Fyfe XIV

[The Corrupt Teacher]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1301398648' post='2679860']
I thought membership within an alliance was a [i]choice[/i]? If you don't like the alliance then you leave. Pretty simple stuff.
[/quote]

This is rich. I'd love to see what would happen if an during a major war one of your IO's took half your alliances nuclear arsenal and ran off to form an alliance because he didn't want to defend an ally who had been attacked and who had activated a clause on a treaty he had signed. Yes I'm sure you'd be so forgiving and just let him waltz out.

Seriously I recall NPO threatening to ZI people when they left in Vietfan and with that whole Devildogs situation despite that being well underhand and in the lower tiers so I highly doubt you'd let the above just slide by without pursing some course of action.

[Hadrian]

I'm conflicted over this issue. On the one hand, I feel a brewing hatred for this traitorous, infra-hugging idiot who skipped on three wars, one of which was a defensive one and I believe he fully deserves this ZI, hell, were I in your position I would make it a double ZI (let him rebuild then bash him one more time to make sure he gets the picture). On the other hand, I cannot help but think that this could've/should've been done a long time ago. While I can understand that Athens was not as influential back then as it is now, I don't think it would have been too hard to follow up the right lines of enquiry to bring him out for you guys to have at him. With that in mind, it [i]is[/i] a little disturbing that you have held this grudge for a full two years...don't get me wrong, I have a few personal grudges myself, but none that would last so long as that.

Surely, you could have done something in the entirety of those 730.5 days?

[Goldie]

So let's get this straight. He got ZI'd, and because of that loss of infra, he decided to rage-delete his wonders and then his nation. He is the epitome, apparently, of a stat-hugger who cares nothing about those around him and solely is in the business of saving his own pixels. He would rather watch his 'friends' burn while he does nothing in order to keep them safe.

Good riddance IMO.

[Wu Tang Clan]

[quote name='Fyfe XIV' timestamp='1301379334' post='2679751']
We merely wanted Panfilo to pay his debt to Athens and he has. A single ZI sentence is by no means driving him from the game and I don't see an alternative solution being necessary. If his response to facing the loss of his 10k precious infra is to sell said infra, delete his wonders and insult us in his native language in his bio then I question whether he can actually change. His response has been downright childish and I believe that people like him contribute nothing to this game other than as a statistic. I do respect you and your opinion and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

He wasn't even good at war when he tried to fight [/quote]

Indeed his response wasn't one I had pursue, and as I stated earlier, his decision to delete is ultimately his and his only. However, having someone ZI you for something that happened 2 years ago can be very deterring, and must make you wonder if you ever will be forgiven and receive a second chance.

Again, I'm not saying it's wrong. And given similar circumstances I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. It's just unfortunate the way Panfilo responded.


[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1301403944' post='2679905']
I had to stop right here. I truthfully couldn't care less about some coward whos afraid of war but nobody is PZI'ing the dude. it was a simple take your licks and move on. Losing some infra, unless your THAT tragic of an infra hugger, doesnt mean jack.

if he wants to ragequit over this, then well have fun with that
[/quote]

See above. I'm not totally disagreeing with you.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

Let his nation burn to the ground.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Fyfe XIV' timestamp='1301406637' post='2679919']
Hey look! You don't know what happened even though it's been explained numerous times

Also, its a good thing AB did what they did because we would have pursued him anyways. You could say it was [i]non-negotiable[/i].[/quote]

Where has anything I've brought up been explained?

I've not once questioned the ZI sentence, which was explained in the OP here, just pointed out that the way you've gone about it is cowardly. Waiting two years for him to move into an alliance you were in a position to push around.

Of course it was [i]non-negotiable[/i], AB and their allies are in no position to refuse your demands. When he applied to join TOP or whatever alliance it was he joined when he left Athens, where was this 'non-negotiable' attitude?

[pezstar]

I get it, and it's ok by me, not that you need anyone's approval.

STA is still holding our grudge against Valhalla, from noCB, and we have no intention of dropping it anytime soon. (Well, not without them adhering to the condition we set for us dropping it a year and a half ago.) Someday, the stars will align and we will find ourselves at war with them, and when we win it, we'll be asking for reps for the first time ever. We will ask for exactly what they required of us, and we're ok with that.

There are some grudges that just can't be let go of easily, and I get that.

[Fyfe XIV]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1301412317' post='2679953']
Where has anything I've brought up been explained?

I've not once questioned the ZI sentence, which was explained in the OP here, just pointed out that the way you've gone about it is cowardly. Waiting two years for him to move into an alliance you were in a position to push around.

Of course it was [i]non-negotiable[/i], AB and their allies are in no position to refuse your demands. When he applied to join TOP or whatever alliance it was he joined when he left Athens, where was this 'non-negotiable' attitude?
[/quote]

Well I can't help that you have a terrible definition of cowardly. We made it clear almost as soon as Panfilo was kicked out of TOP that we would be pursuing a ZI sentence as soon as he left peace mode. [i]We did not wait for him to move into an alliance weaker than ours, we waited for him to not be in an alliance.[/i] The only reason he was able to apply to an alliance was the fact that he was in peace mode. He tried with Exodus, SUN and AB (maybe more) and each time, we approached their gov and explained our position. There were few problems (PMoses lol) and for the most part, Panfilo consistently lied on his applications. His exodus one was particularly funny.

Well you see, after he left Athens we were busy [b]fighting a war[/b]. Not to mention that at the time Athens was around 500k ns (or something like that) as this was pre-mergermania.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='The Corrupt Teacher' timestamp='1301408407' post='2679924']
This is rich. I'd love to see what would happen if an during a major war one of your IO's took half your alliances nuclear arsenal and ran off to form an alliance
[/quote]
That happened to CoJ 3 weeks ago, I can assure you that I'm not burning with rage hot enough to last 2 years. Those guys can all suck a lemon, that's that.

[Fyfe XIV]

edit: poorly worded. I'll fix this later maybe.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Fyfe XIV

[Crymson]

[quote name='kamichi' timestamp='1301377239' post='2679722']
this is pretty great.



Is there a complete list of those expelled from TOP anywhere?
[/quote]

I remember all of them, but I'm not going to post the names here. For all besides panfilo, it was long past--the one preceding him was removed in February of 2009--and those who still play don't deserve to have their names discussed in this context.


[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1301411334' post='2679943']
So let's get this straight. He got ZI'd, and because of that loss of infra, he decided to rage-delete his wonders and then his nation. He is the epitome, apparently, of a stat-hugger who cares nothing about those around him and solely is in the business of saving his own pixels. He would rather watch his 'friends' burn while he does nothing in order to keep them safe.

Good riddance IMO.
[/quote]

Agreed. It had become clear to us all, at the time we kicked him out, that he saw TOP only as a refuge from his enemies and had no intention of actually fighting for the alliance.

I went to the effort of contacting some of the alliances panfilo had applied to, in order to correct the lies he put on his applications and inform them of his true deeds. Hilariously, he had listed "I was pretty inactive" as his reason for departing TOP.

I don't have any respect for such behavior.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Crymson

[Crymson]

double

Edited March 29, 2011 by Crymson

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1301412398' post='2679955']
I get it, and it's ok by me, not that you need anyone's approval.

STA is still holding our grudge against Valhalla, from noCB, and we have no intention of dropping it anytime soon. (Well, not without them adhering to the condition we set for us dropping it a year and a half ago.) Someday, the stars will align and we will find ourselves at war with them, and when we win it, we'll be asking for reps for the first time ever. We will ask for exactly what they required of us, and we're ok with that.

There are some grudges that just can't be let go of easily, and I get that.
[/quote]

Something something, dirty revanchist, something. Rabble Rable.

[AirMe]

I totally understand where this is coming from. I remember how crushed Athens was when Panfilo and friends up and left in their time of need.

[ChesterStevensDevonn]

[quote name='The Corrupt Teacher' timestamp='1301373965' post='2679691']
...GM CnG was signed with the knowledge that No-CB was going to happen. We knew that MK was going to be hit next war and hit hard and we signed full on knowing that. It was something like a month before NoCB that this was worked out. If he didn't get it then he's an idiot or a coward and both should warrant ZI sentences in this case using your high government position to bail and take half of an alliances nuclear arsenal in wartime is something I've never seen anywhere else. The only thing that comes close to what happened to Athens is the TSO-MCXA deal and that happened in peace time and the grudge there was long standing. Blood was needed for this to end and it was taken.
[/quote]


I know that. I was agreeing with rush, but he didn't seem to understand the word "agree" right.
Panfilo can still disagree weather or not he gets it.

Also It's not Idiocy or cowardice that warrants a ZI, It's the actions people take that warrant ZI.

[supercoolyellow]

I can definitely empathize with Athens on this one. I approve

[Duncan King]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1301399485' post='2679864']
Well the thing is during the time that happened Athens wasnt one of the biggest names around and had few friends/allies, war happend and Panfilo ran away with members to i think RoK to which he stayed there awhile (not sure wasnt paying too much attention at him). We all know if a alliance with little friends and influence came to most well connected alliances about a problem, they would be ignored.

Even today if he could of kept Athens at bay, he just choose an alliance with little influence. That was the time for revenge.
[/quote]

The thing is that TOP was on the same side as CnG/Athens/MK in the Karma war and was under CNG surrender terms after TOP/CNG. They could very well have extracted Panfilo then as he was in that alliance during that time. They, for whatever reason, didn't. Hell, TOP and Athens have had a mutual ally in MK for months. They had ample time to get him then, they chose not to.

Believe me, I get the anger that government members deserting on the eve of war causes. Before Karma, three of Zenith's founders, one of whom was the MoDef, and our MoIA as well as our DModef deserted. They didn't like that our alliance was going to come down on the side of NPO in Karma war (even though they'd signed the treaties that brought us to that path) and left exactly 24 hours before we went in. Not surprisingly, we were crushed, both militarily and psychologically. It was a wound that we never really recovered from. I tend to be the kind of person to not be vindictive, but I wanted to ZI them. Of course, we were soon tied up with the war and by the time we got to thinking about things again, three months had passed and we and I decided that it just wasn't worth trying to pursue. Vengeance wouldn't regrow our nations and ZIing them (they were all nuclear) would quite possibly result in more damage than we gave out.

The three founders and other government members deserting was the only thing that I have ever really held an OOC and IC grudge for and holding that grudge cost me both OOC and IC friendships with these people, friendships that I had had for a minimum of a year and three years in the case of the founders. It wasn't worth it and I wouldn't take anything that personally again.

I do have to wonder that if the people cheering on Athens for going after Panfilo would have cheered on and would be cheering on Zenith's deserters if that alliance still existed and we were doing something like this or if TFD, the alliance that Zenith merged into decided to pick up that torch and pursue the deserters. It's the same situation but I suspect that the fact that Zenith/TFD was on the opposite side as Athens during the last three wars means that we're automatically wrong.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Duncan King

[jerdge]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1301360408' post='2679519']There are others, who think that(since Panfilo has told some people he intends to quit) we have "driven another player from the game." That is utter BS, and anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together, knows this. If he quits, nothing of value will be lost... NOTHING OF VALUE... at all.[/quote]
I don't have any special IC opinion on your enmity with Panfilo but I find it very presumptuous of you - and ultimately also a bit unintelligent - to claim that any other player is "worthless" to the game/community.
Just play the freaking game and learn to respect the other players' legitimate (= compliant with the rules) choices over what they do in their play, [i]whatever it is[/i].
This kind of "player assassination" is simply revolting.



Besides, there's the obvious comment that, if you cultivated your grudge against him for two years, Panfilo clearly did something that you considered notable, and which gave you the motivation to do some "stuff". Hardly "worthless" even if you had the authority - which you don't have - to make such claims.



[i](I confess that I didn't read the entire thread: apologies if I am repeating something.)[/i]

Edited March 29, 2011 by jerdge

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1301437855' post='2680184']
I don't have any special IC opinion on your enmity with Panfilo but I find it very presumptuous of you - and ultimately also a bit unintelligent - to claim that any other player is "worthless" to the game/community.
Just play the freaking game and learn to respect the other players' legitimate (= compliant with the rules) choices over what they do in their play, [i]whatever it is[/i].
This kind of player "assassination" is simply revolting.



Besides, there's the obvious comment that, if you cultivated your grudge against him for two years, Panfilo clearly did something that you considered notable, and which gave you the motivation to do some "stuff". Hardly "worthless" even if you had the authority - which you don't have - to make such claims.



[i](I confess that I didn't read the entire thread: apologies if I am repeating something.)[/i]
[/quote]

I would say that is his opinion. Which is shared by many. We are still allowed to have our own opinions right?

:>

[jerdge]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1301438228' post='2680190']I would say that is his opinion. Which is shared by many. We are still allowed to have our own opinions right?[/quote]
What is a "you suck" kind of OOC "opinion" good for, and why should I tolerate it, exactly?

There's ample room for criticizing what another player [i]does[/i], what we shouldn't do is to condemn [i]the person[/i]. It's just a game, let's remember that.
I vehemently disagree with Rush's post and I think it's bad, but I wouldn't (or shouldn't) dare say that [i]Rush[/i] is bad, worthless, or superfluous for CN because of it.

[i](I am not fighting for Panfilo, by the way: I protest against "player assassination" no matter who the player in question is. Who is Panfilo anyway?)[/i]

Edited March 29, 2011 by jerdge

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1301439645' post='2680208']
What is a "you suck" kind of OOC "opinion" good for, and why should I tolerate it, exactly?

There's ample room for criticizing what another player [i]does[/i], what we shouldn't do is to condemn [i]the person[/i]. It's just a game, let's remember that.
I vehemently disagree with Rush's post and I think it's bad, but I wouldn't (or shouldn't) dare say that [i]Rush[/i] is bad, worthless, or superfluous for CN because of it.

[i](I am not fighting for Panfilo, by the way: I protest against "player assassination" no matter who the player in question is. Who is Panfilo anyway?)[/i]
[/quote]

What you do and do not tolerate is no concern to us, to be quite honest. He has been ZIED and has been released. We're done with him.

Also, we only pursued this charming young fellow because of the IC actions he undertook during his last 48 hours or so in Athens. OOC, we have no problems with him.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Jgoods45