A Dark Templar Announcement

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1298694797' post='2645196']
Ah, but the context is everything here. If the context was the same in both cases I don't think anyone would object to your entry into the war.
[/quote]
Well, we can get back into the argument that was had in the first ten pages, or we can just agree to disagree at this point.
Given the fact that I feel that matter is resolved and the demand for reps now comes from a need to safe face with CsN membership at this point, I opt for the latter.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1298695325' post='2645199']
Well, we can get back into the argument that was had in the first ten pages, or we can just agree to disagree at this point.
Given the fact that I feel that matter is resolved and the demand for reps now comes from a need to safe face with CsN membership at this point, I opt for the latter.
[/quote]
It's CSN, not CsN. It's so annoying to see it the wrong way.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1298696816' post='2645219']
It's CSN, not CsN. It's so annoying to see it the wrong way.
[/quote]

I think you missed the joke on that one, Gibs.

[Heft]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1298694797' post='2645196']
Ah, but the context is everything here. If the context was the same in both cases I don't think anyone would object to your entry into the war.
[/quote]
I don't think anyone but CSN (And Xiphosis) objects to Dark Templar's entry into the war.

You were both defending and supporting allies. If they do deserve to pay reps, than so do you and so do about half the alliances on Bob right now.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1298702600' post='2645283']
I don't think anyone but CSN (And Xiphosis) objects to Dark Templar's entry into the war.

You were both defending and supporting allies. If they do deserve to pay reps, than so do you and so do about half the alliances on Bob right now.
[/quote]

Somewhat of an oversimplification. I'll follow Magnet's lead though and let the argument on that matter rest.

Shout-out to my Dark Templar opponents: 100% success in my attacks today. Despair now, for the RNG gods have forsaken you!

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1298702574' post='2645281']
I think you missed the joke on that one, Gibs.
[/quote]
Yeah, haven't been following many threads. Just pop in from time to time.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Myworld' timestamp='1298681634' post='2645055']
Mikeyw, I like to say those token gestures have been given to them to think about and have yet to accepted. Their still on the extreme and the token gestures are there for them to pick and chose from. But until then we're at a stand still. We'd like to get this over with but it takes 2 to find middle ground. We're standing around and waiting for the other party to show up.
[/quote]

The other party showed up with terms you found acceptable, and you came up with some lame excuse and walked away. That's just a fact. Then they went lower, and again, you muttered an excuse and walked away. Please stop acting like CSN hasn't made concessions and that only you have.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Penkala

[twodivine]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298729227' post='2645418']
The other party showed up with terms you found acceptable, and you came up with some lame excuse and walked away. That's just a fact. Then they went lower, and again, you muttered an excuse and walked away. Please stop acting like CSN hasn't made concessions and that only you have.
[/quote]
Penkala enjoy your spin again. That's not how it took place.

Terms were offered to them. They walked way. They failed to negotiate or state they needed to talk about it. When you do that then the terms go off the table to start new negotiations.

The current offers are on the table because CSN has yet to come back to the table to discuss them. Once that happens then we're back to negotiating and if they accept one of them great. If they give another offer then hey we're actually getting somewhere. Until people actually go to the table then there isn't much negotiating going on is there.

[ChairmanHal]

Suffice to say that the war continues and will continue until negotiations take place [i]and are successfully concluded[/i], regardless of who offered what terms or when.

If CSN is set on perpetual war against DT, then I suppose that doesn't matter. I've seen no indication that they are bargaining in good faith based upon their extensive comments in this thread, so that would seem to be the case. Hopefully behind closed doors things are moving forward and not in circles.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298729227' post='2645418']
The other party showed up with terms you found acceptable, and you came up with some lame excuse and walked away. That's just a fact. Then they went lower, and again, you muttered an excuse and walked away. Please stop acting like CSN hasn't made concessions and that only you have.
[/quote]

Oh penkala as usual you have almost no clue.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1298750345' post='2645531']
Oh penkala as usual you have almost no clue.
[/quote]

But he will stomp and cry loudly that he and only he has such a thing...even though what he is amusingly trying to say in effect is 'CSN are good guys for being so nice as to lower their horrendously huge and fattening demands to something 25% less horrendous which in his mind means they are now lite and petit'

CSN and Penkala- Now with 25% less calories! Its good for you!

Edited February 26, 2011 by chefjoe

[Deathsmile]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1298707119' post='2645323']
Somewhat of an oversimplification. I'll follow Magnet's lead though and let the argument on that matter rest.

Shout-out to my Dark Templar opponents: 100% success in my attacks today. Despair now, for the RNG gods have forsaken you!
[/quote]

Yeah but youre only about 3 out of 9 total. And i won all 6 of mine against CSN. Oh and nice SDI, maybe itll work tomorrow ;]

[Cynic2]

There's so much spin in this thread that it could power a couple of third world countries with the sheer amount of centrifugal force...

I have not read through the almost 80 pages of arguments in this thread so please bear with me if any of the points that I am going to make have been made or countered earlier in this topic.

Here is how I see things:

DT entered this war because they have an Optional Defense Pact with LoSS and we approached them asking them to hit Legacy since we were having difficulty with them. CSN may disagree with an optional treaty being activated but the treaty is still a valid one, more valid than the non-existing treaty that they used to declare on LoSS I would dare to say. CSN can guess as to DT's motives for entering the war all that they wish it still does not change the fact that DT honored an optional treaty as means to enter the war, an optional [u]defense[/u] treaty.

Next we have CSN saying that DT were disrespectful and rude during negotiations and that this justifies punitive reparations. Imho insulting people or being disrespectful are not justification for imposing damage reparations, mainly because these actions do not cause actual damages, only hurt feelings. After that CSN declared that they seek reparations because DT sought to abandon LoSS on the battlefield and that this shows opportunism. First of all if LoSS felt disrespected and wronged by the Dark Templars actions and the way that they sought to exit the war would that not be for LoSS to take up with DT? Why should CSN handle that situation on our behalf? It's great to know that you guys have our best interests at heart and that the respect and honor of our allies is so important to you but I think that LoSS can handle issues with our allies ourselves.

How DT seeks to exit the war does not change the fact that they entered it by honoring a legitimate treaty. If CSN truly believes that honoring optional treaties is grounds for punitive reparations then I look forward to seeing how much of a reps amount they will be demanding from Legacy and The Brain for honoring the OA clauses in their treaties.

This brings me to another point, DT entered via an optional [u]defense[/u] pact. This by its very definition means that they were helping to [b][u]DEFEND[/u][/b] LoSS. Their entry into this war was not made via aggression and as such subjecting them to war reparations is ridiculous. Since when is defending an ally a punishable act? Should alliances who choose to defend their allies be praised for it instead of punished? What kind of backwards world do we live in?

I would also like to point out that this sets a dangerous precedent should reps be assessed. Every non-neutral alliance needs to think about this: if people start getting reparations for alliances honoring optional defensive pacts then what is next? Will some alliance or alliances in future wars push the envelope even further by demanding reparations from alliances who enter a war via a mutual defense pact? Where does it end? There are many of you who were around in the days of the World Unity Treaty bloc, I myself was one of them. Do you not remember losing wars in which you fought? Do you not remember being victorious in Karma? The point is that just because you are winning now does not mean that you will always win wars and if CSN is allowed to extort punitive reps from a combatant who entered the war in defense of an ally then when you find yourselves on the losing end of a war in the future you may find yourselves subject to the same kind of punishment if you defend your allies.

If CSN wanted to teach a lesson to others to prevent them from attacking their allies then they have done just that by declaring war against DT after they attacked Legacy. DT may have sought peace without LoSS when they began negotiating but let me ask you this: Since the reason for LoSS entering the war (TIO) was no longer in it would LoSS have been kept in a state of war if DT had been given peace? Considering that from what you keep saying (I'm not LoSS government and have no idea if this is accurate or not) LoSS still to this second has a standing offer of white peace I don't believe that we would have.

DT's only crime was being uncouth during negotiations, is CSN government really so petty and vindictive that they would assure that CSN continues taking damage from both LoSS and DT just to try to make a point because they feel that they were slighted at the negotiating table?

I have warred with many, many CSN nations this war and those that have responded to my messages and had conversations with me all seem like decent people and classy individuals, if CSN's government would offer responsible terms (Demanding an apology from DT for the arrogance and disrespect that you allege would be acceptable IMO but I believe that paying reps for defending an ally that has requested your assistance is logical nor the right thing to do) we could all be rebuilding right now instead of still bombing each other to dust. To imply that DT was wrong for defending LoSS is also an implication that LoSS's reason for being at war with CSN and her allies was wrong and I don't see the facts bearing that out.

It benefits CSN not to continue to be in a state of war with both DT and LoSS (LoSS is not going anywhere as long as DT is still at war).

[mmansfield68]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1298729227' post='2645418']
The other party showed up with terms you found acceptable, and you came up with some lame excuse and walked away. That's just a fact. Then they went lower, and again, you muttered an excuse and walked away. Please stop acting like CSN hasn't made concessions and that only you have.
[/quote]
That's not a fact. You're such a damned nuisance, and not productive to anything. You keep spouting the same memes add nauseum.

Why are you here, Penkala? You talk too much - WAY too much for a non-involved party.

Go hump somebody else's leg.





EDIT: hump/leg

Edited February 27, 2011 by mmansfield68

[bobo t baggins]

[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1298778990' post='2645821']
That's not a fact. You're such a damned nuisance, and not productive to anything. You keep spouting the same memes add nauseum.

Why are you here, Penkala? You talk too much - WAY too much for a non-involved party.

Go hump somebody else's leg.

[/quote]


calm down there, captain grumpypants.


oh, and what about that statement is not a fact?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='bobo t baggins' timestamp='1298837773' post='2646264']
calm down there, captain grumpypants.


oh, and what about that statement is not a fact?
[/quote]

everything. DT was the one who offered the terms, not CSN. CSN then refused the terms only to go back 30 hours later to accept. By that time, due to the refusal and no word sent to DT that CSN was discussing said terms, the terms were off the table. At this point, DT offered white peace and an apology, CSN refused the apology which was promptly taken off the table, then walked out. Then we get to Goose's blog.

so, basically everything that Penk had said was a lie or complete distortion. at no point did DT walk out. in fact, DT has not walked out of a single negotiation, whereas CSN has walked out of several.

[XRCatD]

IMO this whole thing is not because of CSN having greed... it's fear tactics. If they can successfully extort a lot of reps in this war, then in future wars people on the opposite side to CSN will be more likely to opt not to declare CSN or its allies...due to potential fear of potential reps just like these.

So successful reps benefit CSN + its allies quite a lot...

Edited February 27, 2011 by XRCatD

[Willaim Kreiger]

[quote name='XRCatD' timestamp='1298848514' post='2646393']
IMO this whole thing is not because of CSN having greed... it's fear tactics. If they can successfully extort a lot of reps in this war, then in future wars people on the opposite side to CSN will be more likely to opt not to declare CSN or its allies...due to potential fear of potential reps just like these.

So successful reps benefit CSN + its allies quite a lot...
[/quote]
Or, alternatively, alliance X declares on CSN and "burns them into the ground". They then justify massive reparations based on CSN's support of massive reps in the recent past and CSN and their allies suffer. Regardless good luck out there DT.

[Cynic2]

[quote name='XRCatD' timestamp='1298848514' post='2646393']
IMO this whole thing is not because of CSN having greed... it's fear tactics. If they can successfully extort a lot of reps in this war, then in future wars people on the opposite side to CSN will be more likely to opt not to declare CSN or its allies...due to potential fear of potential reps just like these.

So successful reps benefit CSN + its allies quite a lot...
[/quote]

In addition to this:

[quote name='Willaim Kreiger' timestamp='1298848861' post='2646398']
Or, alternatively, alliance X declares on CSN and "burns them into the ground". They then justify massive reparations based on CSN's support of massive reps in the recent past and CSN and their allies suffer. Regardless good luck out there DT.
[/quote]

I'm going to also say that extorting a lot of reps has the side effect of alienating their own allies who will see CSN causing the war to drag on as foolish. Even if they successfully extort 40k tech in reps if it costs them and their allies several million NS is it really beneficial to them? How exactly does being destroyed in a war of attrition cause future opponents fear? All that this is proving so far is that CSN government is vindictive enough to continue the mutual destruction instead of offering terms that are reasonable and likely to be accepted.

[Stewie]

We're just going round and round and round in circles.

Can't we all just peace out and end this silly war?

We need to start rebuilding for the summer war

[twodivine]

[quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1298853256' post='2646432']
We're just going round and round and round in circles.

Can't we all just peace out and end this silly war?

We need to start rebuilding for the summer war
[/quote]

Stewie I couldn't agree with you more.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1298853256' post='2646432']
We're just going round and round and round in circles.

Can't we all just peace out and end this silly war?

We need to start rebuilding for the summer war
[/quote]

That would require a level of Zen simply unattainable by some.

However, I couldn't agree more.

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='XRCatD' timestamp='1298848514' post='2646393']
IMO this whole thing is not because of CSN having greed... it's fear tactics. If they can successfully extort a lot of reps in this war, then in future wars people on the opposite side to CSN will be more likely to opt not to declare CSN or its allies...due to potential fear of potential reps just like these.

So successful reps benefit CSN + its allies quite a lot...
[/quote]
That may be the goal (or one of the goals) of what they're doing, but history shows that it simply does not work.

-Bama

[Finch]

CSN has to win this war first before they can get in any position to demand anything and from what I can see they have a looooong way to go now before that happens if it happens at all.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Finch' timestamp='1298861994' post='2646525']
CSN has to win this war first before they can get in any position to demand anything and from what I can see they have a looooong way to go now before that happens if it happens at all.
[/quote]
Really? You sure?