SpacingOutMan Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1298559118' post='2643834'] dang, was hoping you would move to Black so we could vote for you. [/quote] Anything (except yellow and pink) would be better than Maroon... I'd actually be able to get Uranium/Rubber no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298559633' post='2643838'] Anything (except yellow and pink) would be better than Maroon... I'd actually be able to get Uranium/Rubber no problem. [/quote] hahahahaha. gotta love trades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Read the first 3 pages... I'm sure the next 71 are just as chock full of goodness, but alas, time is short for me. [u]My Two Cents:[/u] What good is power if you can't hold down a weaker enemy and make them capitulate to demands that enrich you at their expense? It doesn't have to be "fair". It just has to be effective. That is the right of the victor and the privilege of the strong. So on that note, CSN can demand anything they want. They had just better be able to achieve their true aims, whatever they may be (which seems to be demoralizing and weakening a party aligned against them by virtue of the treaty web). On the flip side, DT has performed an admirable counter to this by waging a PR strike. Now CSN are placed upon the bull's horns, so to speak. If they succumb to the pressure of "negative ratings" they will look weak for backing out of their position (though they may gain some points by some for "being reasonable"); but the other possibility is that this may only entrench them farther into their position and make them look like @#!**$^!. While most alliances can safely disregard the peanut gallery's rabble-rousing, nevertheless the peanut gallery members still belong to alliances and carry their opinions with them. Sure CSN can ignore the "outrage" on the OWF, it won't affect them one bit.... Will it? Smear an alliance's reputation effectively enough and you can begin to isolate them from their allies and polarize their enemies against them. (See: NPO). An important consideration to dwell upon since no one wants to lose the nice velvet glove that so hides the iron fist. So giving your enemies ammunition to build political support against you because you've acted heavy handed can be quite dangerous. And more profitable for the enemy, even if they lost the war, in terms of political support. Assuming, however, that the wielder of this soft power is still around to benefit from such an operation. Edited February 24, 2011 by Kzoppistan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roi Loup Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1298501048' post='2643165'] Have you forgotten your roots? [/quote] i dont think he cares now that hes in power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrooms Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1298573818' post='2643985'] i dont think he cares now that hes in power [/quote] who does? show me examples RL or CN i know id abuse the !@#$ out of power if i was Archon/Xihpiosiswhatshisname/whoever is allowing them to pull there strings. its up to the rest of us(anyone not directly connected to S-G/PB to stop !@#$%*ing and blow some !@#$ up and hopefully we blow up more than they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1298564322' post='2643884'] Smear an alliance's reputation effectively enough and you can begin to isolate them from their allies and polarize their enemies against them. (See: NPO). An important consideration to dwell upon since no one wants to lose the nice velvet glove that so hides the iron fist. So giving your enemies ammunition to build political support against you because you've acted heavy handed can be quite dangerous. And more profitable for the enemy, even if they lost the war, in terms of political support. Assuming, however, that the wielder of this soft power is still around to benefit from such an operation. [/quote] Both have their reasons and both have the notion that they're in the right. It's all really relative to what they presume advantageous to them at this point. To them, respectively - their stand matters to those whom they want it to matter to - allies and friends. The solution at this point depends on two factors - feasibility and desirability. I think the situation is still workable for both to settle this before any lasting effects - whether that ends with white peace or reps. The real question is the desire - who's [i]really[/i] winning this war? Infra vs. Public Relations - Infra can be rebuilt faster than bad PR in my opinion. Edited February 24, 2011 by Pariah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocabia Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 It's simply. Two men enter. One man leaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonator21 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1298559633' post='2643838'] Anything (except yellow and pink) would be better than Maroon... I'd actually be able to get Uranium/Rubber no problem. [/quote] Don't forget brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoppistan Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='Pariah' timestamp='1298580779' post='2644078'] Both have their reasons and both have the notion that they're in the right. It's all really relative to what they presume advantageous to them at this point. To them, respectively - their stand matters to those whom they want it to matter to - allies and friends. The solution at this point depends on two factors - feasibility and desirability. I think the situation is still workable for both to settle this before any lasting effects - whether that ends with white peace or reps. The real question is the desire - who's [i]really[/i] winning this war? Infra vs. Public Relations - Infra can be rebuilt faster than bad PR in my opinion. [/quote] Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocabia Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1298581885' post='2644087'] Don't forget brown. [/quote] I like brown. Especially for clothing. Helps cover for those inconvenient "accidents". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298581524' post='2644084'] It's simply. Two men enter. One man leaves. [/quote] It can be simplified to that - true. But leaves with what, my friend? I think you forget the other factors that have been discussed in these 70+ pages, as well. Do you honestly believe its as simple as that after all the discussion here? Especially when so much of what is said and done here will reflect the standing of your alliance (DT's as well) among others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocabia Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Pariah' timestamp='1298582623' post='2644109'] It can be simplified to that - true. But leaves with what, my friend? I think you forget the other factors that have been discussed in these 70+ pages, as well. Do you honestly believe its as simple as that after all the discussion here? Especially when so much of what is said and done here will reflect the standing of your alliance (DT's as well) among others? [/quote] I think it simplifies to a joke. At this point the endless circular finger-pointing has no purpose. Repeating yourself doesn't make you more or less right and I've said all there is to say on the subject. Feel free to search out my posts. It's been pointed out that both sides feel slighted and neither is in the mood to back down. CSN isn't going to let DT walk away without reps paid directly to CSN. DT isn't going to do that. It's an impasse and the fact that it's become a public debacle pretty much guarantees neither alliance will back down. At the beginning of this CSN had a lot of people that wanted us to lower our offer, and DT had a lot of people willing to pay reps, but as this has escalated and been argued about, we've gotten further apart. We're not even discussing this on our own forum anymore. We're talking about Lord Brendan's ice cream example and whether it's worth more if it's rocky road. EDIT: Between the several threads both publicly and on the individual forums there have been thousands of posts on the subject, joking, trolling and serious. People have come at this from all different angles and nothing has moved (in a positive direction anyway). Edited February 24, 2011 by Jocabia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Ozujsko Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298585110' post='2644156'] At the beginning of this CSN had a lot of people that wanted us to lower our offer, and [i]DT had a lot of people willing to pay reps[/i], but as this has escalated and been argued about, we've gotten further apart. [/quote] Care to elaborate? I'm fairly certain that isn't accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298585110' post='2644156'] I think it simplifies to a joke. At this point the endless circular finger-pointing has no purpose. Repeating yourself doesn't make you more or less right and I've said all there is to say on the subject. Feel free to search out my posts.[/quote] I agree. Talking about it at this point won't solve anything [i]unless[/i] there's real intent on both sides to put this behind them. But still...who's the joke on? [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298585110' post='2644156'] We're not even discussing this on our own forum anymore. We're talking about Lord Brendan's ice cream example and whether it's worth more if it's rocky road.[/quote] What have the masses concluded? [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298585110' post='2644156'] It's been pointed out that both sides feel slighted and neither is in the mood to back down. CSN isn't going to let DT walk away without reps paid directly to CSN. DT isn't going to do that. It's an impasse and the fact that it's become a public debacle pretty much guarantees neither alliance will back down. At the beginning of this CSN had a lot of people that wanted us to lower our offer, and DT had a lot of people willing to pay reps, but as this has escalated and been argued about, we've gotten further apart.[/quote] [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298585110' post='2644156'] EDIT: Between the several threads both publicly and on the individual forums there have been thousands of posts on the subject, joking, trolling and serious. People have come at this from all different angles and nothing has moved (in a positive direction anyway). [/quote] Then it's a matter of pride. Until it's resolved, things will continue moving in a non-positive direction (for both - depending on how you view things). Open minds and level heads do wonders even between enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaGneT Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 [quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1298588587' post='2644206'] Care to elaborate? I'm fairly certain that isn't accurate. [/quote] Nah, B, Magnet was just lying a bunch of pages ago when he said that the reason that DT moved forward with the white peace proposal that ended with Veruca screaming "I WANT MY REPS NOW DADDY" was that DT members went berserk at the idea that we may actually be close to agreeing to such exorbitant reps. No one has yet to explain why a dime of reps should go to CSN . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocabia Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1298601848' post='2644372'] Nah, B, Magnet was just lying a bunch of pages ago when he said that the reason that DT moved forward with the white peace proposal that ended with Veruca screaming "I WANT MY REPS NOW DADDY" was that DT members went berserk at the idea that we may actually be close to agreeing to such exorbitant reps. No one has yet to explain why a dime of reps should go to CSN . . . [/quote] You keep selling that load. Maybe you can convince myworld. Because he's the one who gave a completely different reason TWICE for why you changed your mind. He specifically said twice that the reason the offer changed was because of the screenshots and his believe our membership was against it. Incidentally, after he said that, he once again agreed to reps, he just didn't specify the amount. So either you're lying or myworld is. Given my interactions with you, I'm going to say that you're the more likely of the two, but you can sell me on myworld be a liar as well, if you like. Edited February 25, 2011 by Jocabia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocabia Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='General Ozujsko' timestamp='1298588587' post='2644206'] Care to elaborate? I'm fairly certain that isn't accurate. [/quote] Are you? Hmmmm... that's interesting. You've only got 50 members. I've talked to at least a dozen who have said at one time or another they weren't opposed to reps, just the amount. One of your members posted a blog yesterday that said he doesn't really mind paying reps. But, hey, keep selling that nonsense. I don't doubt you've had some members who were vehemently against it. We've had some members who were vehemently for a large rep amount since very early on. From what I gather, many of your members and many of our members were for both sides being reasonable, but both governments were too hard-headed to try and be reasonable. And, yeah, you were one of the people who were there and being hard-headed. Edited February 25, 2011 by Jocabia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaGneT Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298604330' post='2644406']He specifically said twice that the reason the offer changed was because of the screenshots [/quote] Where? As someone who was part of the internal group to put pressure on him for white peace or bust . . . I find this most unflattering. [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298604435' post='2644408'] Are you? Hmmmm... that's interesting. You've only got 50 members. I've talked to at least a dozen who have said at one time or another they weren't opposed to reps, just the amount. One of your members posted a blog yesterday that said he doesn't really mind paying reps. But, hey, keep selling that nonsense. [/quote] You clearly misinterpret. There are those of us who are opposed to continue wasting time in a pointless war, so paying reps is a way out of being mired in such a situation. That does not mean they favor that to white peace, it means that they are willing to discuss reparations (to Legacy) at a reasonable amount with reasonable conditions. There is no one in DT (to my knowledge) who supports giving a dime to CSN, as there is no reason to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocabia Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1298604793' post='2644412'] Where?[/quote] [23:34] <Myworld[DT]> So tell you what up until the logs from hearing CSN wanted to accept what you walked away. I was thinking of a lower offer to counter with that wasn't white peace. So I give you the opportunity to find that number. But say where a few more times. It's not as if this is the fourth or fifth time I've pointed this out to you. Up until the logs saying some of us would prefer white peace, myworld was going to offer reps. And, in fact, he offers reps right there if we can just hit the number he's thinking of, apparently. Doing wonders for your credibility. [quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1298604793' post='2644412'] As someone who was part of the internal group to put pressure on him for white peace or bust . . . I find this most unflattering.[/quote] Uh, pardon? I was originally against the reps. I did not suggest white peace or bust. Here is my full comment on the subject when I first heard: "I agree with the idea of mandatory tech trades." Mandatory tech trades was suggested as an alternative to reps. Hardly white peace. I was trying to get peace. Not the same thing. But then, I did mention you don't have a reputation for honesty, didn't I? In fact, didn't I specifically tell you that white peace was not an option. I told people who wanted white peace that it's unrealistic expectation. Go ahead, say I didn't. Damage your credibility a little more. [quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1298604793' post='2644412']You clearly misinterpret. There are those of us who are opposed to continue wasting time in a pointless war, so paying reps is a way out of being mired in such a situation. That does not mean they favor that to white peace, it means that they are willing to discuss reparations (to Legacy) at a reasonable amount with reasonable conditions. There is no one in DT (to my knowledge) who supports giving a dime to CSN, as there is no reason to. [/quote] Who said they favor that to white peace? I said, they are "not opposed to paying reps" and "willing to pay reps". That means, given the options they didn't stand against reps. No one suggesting that your membership was begging to pay reps. And, no, that it be to Legacy and only Legacy was not what was offered and we both know it. And, unfortunately for your membership that didn't want to get mired in such a situation, the superior foreign affairs skills of myworld did just that. I take it you haven't heard several of the offers myworld made to us regarding paying reps to CSN? Or is he not in CSN? Or you haven't read XR1's blog? Or is he also not in CSN? It's interesting that myworld is so disconnected from your membership that he was making offers that no one supported him making. What a wild accusation for you to make. Edited February 25, 2011 by Jocabia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaGneT Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298606180' post='2644422'] Uh, pardon? I was originally against the reps. I did not suggest white peace or bust. Here is my full comment on the subject when I first heard: "I agree with the idea of mandatory tech trades." Mandatory tech trades was suggested as an alternative to reps. Hardly white peace. I was trying to get peace. Not the same thing. But then, I did mention you don't have a reputation for honesty, didn't I? In fact, didn't I specifically tell you that white peace was not an option. I told people who wanted white peace that it's unrealistic expectation. Go ahead, say I didn't. Damage your credibility a little more. [/QUOTE] Are you unaware of what I quoted? You said myworld confirmed your suspicion. I asked where he did so. Then I said that it was unflattering to me if that is true, because I like to think that I have some influence in DT. Seeing as I know firsthand the reasons that the rep demands were changed . . . I'd like to see your attempt at a "gotcha". [QUOTE]Who said they favor that to white peace? I said, they are "not opposed to paying reps" and "willing to pay reps". That means, given the options they didn't stand against reps. No one suggesting that your membership was begging to pay reps. And, no, that it be to Legacy and only Legacy was not what was offered and we both know it. And, unfortunately for your membership that didn't want to get mired in such a situation, the superior foreign affairs skills of myworld did just that. I take it you haven't heard several of the offers myworld made to us regarding paying reps to CSN? [b]Or is he not in CSN?[/b] Or you haven't read XR1's blog? Or is he also not in CSN? It's interesting that myworld is so disconnected from your membership that he was making offers that no one supported him making. What a wild accusation for you to make. [/quote] First and foremost, you don't seem to understand the way DT works. The government, though unelected, works very much through the feedback of the members. That includes myworld. To allege that he is not on the same page as us is simply incorrect. To the bolded, I presume that's a typo. I don't take you for an idiot. But if you meant DT there, you confirm my point. There are those of us that believe firmly that white peace is the only right answer. Reps to Legacy are mildly acceptable if reps must be paid. If reps are paid to CSN, they should be minimal compared to those to Legacy and they should come from any source. That is what xR1 said, that is why myworld said in talks and that is the general consensus among DT. (To my knowledge) EDIT: That IRC log you quoted . . . has nothing to do with what you are alleging. Edited February 25, 2011 by MaGneT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodivine Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298604330' post='2644406'] You keep selling that load. Maybe you can convince myworld. Because he's the one who gave a completely different reason TWICE for why you changed your mind. He specifically said twice that the reason the offer changed was because of the screenshots and his believe our membership was against it. Incidentally, after he said that, he once again agreed to reps, he just didn't specify the amount. So either you're lying or myworld is. Given my interactions with you, I'm going to say that you're the more likely of the two, but you can sell me on myworld be a liar as well, if you like. [/quote] Reasons why offer had changed: 1. CSN walked way 2. CSN didn't say they needed to discuss it. 3. DT took it off the table and came up with new one due to #1 and #2 4. DT goes to white peace to start of negotiations again should CSN come back to the table. Which we're going to offer no matter what due to internal discussions but sub a and b helped support our change in the offer. 4a. DT knows that CSN allies want them to drop the reps 4b. DT finds out that CSN members want to have reps dropped 5. DT offers white peace to start of negotiations Edited February 25, 2011 by Myworld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 [quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1298581885' post='2644087'] Don't forget brown. [/quote] I actually got a stable trade circle on Brown in a few weeks. I never had a stable trade circle on Maroon. I just basically had a bunch of people tempting me ever so often. So I would say Brown is better than Maroon in my experience. Of course that was when TCP and others were still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonator21 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1298612220' post='2644496'] I actually got a stable trade circle on Brown in a few weeks. I never had a stable trade circle on Maroon. I just basically had a bunch of people tempting me ever so often. So I would say Brown is better than Maroon in my experience. Of course that was when TCP and others were still there. [/quote] That was the first thing I did as GATO's MoDA, get me a trade circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Ozujsko Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298604435' post='2644408'] Are you? Hmmmm... that's interesting. You've only got 50 members. I've talked to at least a dozen who have said at one time or another they weren't opposed to reps, just the amount. One of your members posted a blog yesterday that said he doesn't really mind paying reps. But, hey, keep selling that nonsense. I don't doubt you've had some members who were vehemently against it. We've had some members who were vehemently for a large rep amount since very early on. From what I gather, many of your members and many of our members were for both sides being reasonable, but both governments were too hard-headed to try and be reasonable. And, yeah, you were one of the people who were there and being hard-headed. [/quote] You mentioned "a lot of members." That's a newsflash to DT...I'd say the vast majority are opposed to anything but white peace. I was where? The IRC chat with the white peace and suggestion of optional apology? Find me where I'm being hard-headed in that log, buddy. I mention, no less than 3 times, for Goose to have Liz leave the talks if she couldn't handle it. That's my nice voice...my apologies if you can't handle it. And I don't shy away from being called "hard-headed" from my posts here. I have a responsibility to DT to ensure their long-term security and sovereignty. So, basically, "hard-headed" is what you call someone who resists extortion. So be it. I'll proudly wear that label. But don't kid yourself and say I was hard-headed in those talks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyOiTzGeRmY Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 [quote name='Jocabia' timestamp='1298604330' post='2644406'] So either you're lying or myworld is. Given my interactions with you, I'm going to say that you're the more likely of the two, but you can sell me on myworld be a liar as well, if you like. [/quote] What you are trying to do isn't argue over reps. Or over reason as to why CSN deserves anything . Your intentions are looked down upon, i suggest save some face and just walk away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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